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Old 01-08-2003, 07:28 PM   #1
darue_ivywood
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Default Point Systems

looking for info from guilds who use point systems and those that dont. Whats the feel?


Love em?
Hate em?
why? why not?

Use em? what would you like to change?
what is good to stay the same?

how did you set it up? is it fair?

etc etc...

Whats your opinion of them and do they work?


thanks.
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Old 01-08-2003, 07:40 PM   #2
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Whats your opinion of them and do they work?
In my opinion...they do. It rewards the most played/dedicated players in the guild. When someone wins something you know its going to use because the points 'x' person spent to get it. And how'd he get those points? Showing up...kicking ass with everyone else.

The downside? My view is in the clear. Not taking into the consideration of others so-called feelings. The 'casual' player will feel like he/she is on the outside. Even if they dont say it out loud. They'll feel the shaft and at best only getting the scraps no one wants. If your entire guild consists of casual players with only few hard core's then this isnt for you.

Then again...as far as going the distance with what you get is, point systems may be the best you can do without having your officers/gl having to personaly out someone. It may not benifiet(sp?) friends. But it will always go to one deserving. Even if said person leaves at a later point...well you have the knowledge he left with only gear he worked for. He saved up, spent, looted.

But, maybe I'm just rambling. Hope it makes more sense to you than it did to me.
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Old 01-08-2003, 08:23 PM   #3
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Point systems are ass. You always end up with the high playtime people who go in for stuff that is better suited for other classes at certain times. Better off tracking attendence and having 3 officers for each type of class (priest, melee, caster), who then decide on the loot. Serves the guild better IMO while still rewarding high playtime people.
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Old 01-08-2003, 08:26 PM   #4
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It takes a lot of trust in the officer to allocate.

It takes a lot of trust in the members to do DKP.

It takes a lot of balls to /random everything.

No system is perfect.

Having said that, I like DKP.

Read

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showt...&threadid=4522

for more info on starting guilds.
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Old 01-08-2003, 08:30 PM   #5
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You always end up with the high playtime people who go in for stuff that is better suited for other classes at certain times.
That's why officers should still stay a part of the loot with point systems, in a way. For them to set item priorities would be best.

ie. 15/19 piercer, 3 classes listed, one of them being rouge, rouges get a shot before others.

Granted at times it will be hard to set a priority on an item...but it will cut down the stupidness of some people.
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Old 01-08-2003, 08:59 PM   #6
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crypte you work for CKR? if you do man they were ass this past CPL man you guys need to get some sheet better coverage wise. If not then ignore what i just said
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:24 AM   #7
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Point systems are a mixed blessing.
On the one hand they mean that the most dedicated players get the most rewards, which is also good for the guild since those players are present most often and hence it's important they be well equipped.
It's also nice that it gives everyone on a raid the feeling that they've earned something by their presence, even if they don't get any loot.
And, they lead to far fewer disputes over individual items than any other system.

However, the mathematics are surprisingly difficult to get right. It's common to get situations where certain people get all the loot and others get none, or where it effectively turns into a seniority system because newer members are 10,000,000 points behind everyone else.
This can't trivially be fixed by adjusting the points given, since they just get more or less valuable accordingly.
Other considerations are whether you have an auction system, or static prices. If static, how do you fix the prices? How do you resolve situations where more than one person wants an item? If you allow them to bid against each other for it, then it turns into an auction system which just happens to have minimum prices.
Then, what if no-one is willing to meet the price? Let it rot?
On the other hand if you don't have minimum prices, then you get certain items going for ludicrous numbers of points (Hail CI! 138!) while others go for 1 point, which skews the whole system around in funny ways.
Meanwhile there are problems with the amount of loot that drops for different classes, meaning warriors (for example) have to spent a hundred points to get a cloth tunic whilst necromancers get stupidly uber robes for one point each.
... And so on.


My guild uses a point system and I like it, but we haven't been using it for long enough yet to judge whether it avoids all (or even any) of these problems. If you decide to use a point system, think *very* long and hard about its long-term mechanics before you implement it, since changing it later will only give rise to yet more problems.

Ssetti

PS. Please, please don't post line-by-line solutions to any of the problems I've mentioned, since I've had all of those arguments before on various occasions and really, they're not solvable. Let's not turn this into a tedious analysis session
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Old 01-09-2003, 04:28 AM   #8
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ie. 15/19 piercer, 3 classes listed, one of them being rouge, rouges get a shot before others.
/hug Tendon Slicer (Rogue/Ranger usable O.o)
/laugh Rogues

(kidding, by the way )
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Old 01-09-2003, 05:13 AM   #9
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5 systems:

- Random -> ok for a non raiding guild. Some will always have better luck than others though

- Officer allocation -> probably the best for raiding guilds, as the loot goes to the characters who will make move guild forward faster. Requires very high attendance from officers to know what's going on and you will get a lot of bitching with that unless your guild can really get plenty for everyone. Better for guilds with high attendance from everyone.

- Best upgrade -> only for very high attendance guilds. With that, you're supposed to maximise what the guild will be able to do tomorrow. Got to be clever enough, and allocate considering what is comming next too, and according to class.

- Points -> for raiding guild with variable attendance. The most active members get what they want. Others get what's left. High administration required, can end up with people buying in a non too smart way, but makes it easy to cut on the bitching.

- List -> keep a list of everyone in the guild. Whenever someone gets a loot (no matter what), drop to the bottom of the list. When something drops, go through the list in order and whoever is higher in the list from those who want gets. When that guy who played 5 times in 3 months happens to be there the first time you drop AoW and is on top of the list for the blade of carnage, will other warriors remember they got a few other items in that time? Will that serve your guild well to have a level 54 warrior in cobalt who has low attendance with a blade of carnage?

If raiding ain't the main activity of your guild, stick with random or allocate if everyone loves and trusts the officers.

If in a raiding guild and your goal is to kill bigger and bigger mobs, take one of the other 4. Which is best? Depends too much on your guild to decide that...
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Old 01-09-2003, 05:17 AM   #10
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What is DKP?

Haven't heard this acronym before.
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Old 01-09-2003, 05:24 AM   #11
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There are definitely positive and negative aspects of all systems, no matter what you do someone is going to get pissed off(like dumbass Euro players who think they deserve points for not coming to raids, even though there were online at the time of said raid and chose not to attend Ė yea, go fuck yourself).

>>Better off tracking attendence and having 3 officers for each type of class (priest, melee, caster), who then decide on the loot.

Having helped to implement this system long, long ago itís definitely my first choice when it comes to loot distribution. If those three people have a good head on their shoulders, which ours definitely did, all items will end up where they belong for the greatest benefit to the guild(not necessarily the individual, if you donít understand this concept go hit yourself in the head with a blunt object until it makes sense).

If that seems too much pressure to put on a select few people, then go with a points system, but for the love of baby Jesus, make sure you use common sense when doing it. I highly recommend setting some up-front rules to the system or, at the least, give the guildleader(and maybe officers if there arenít 40 of them) the ability to veto someone for an item if itís really not meant for them.

Back in the day we used a very simple points system, 1 point per kill(Nagafen/Vox since thatís all there was to kill), person with the most points won the item, however, we also had a little blurb in the rules stating that no one person would acquire two haste items(CoF & RBB) before every other person in the guild had one.

>>It takes a lot of trust in the officer to allocate

If you donít trust the officers of your guild, the ones who most likely had the final say in whether or not you were tagged, then why would you be there in the first place?
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Old 01-09-2003, 05:49 AM   #12
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Usually a points system is as close as you're going to get to a decider system in terms of benefiting the guild. I'm not a big fan of point systems, but my guild history tends towards family-style guilds. Not family-style be-fair-to-everyone-and-random-it, but family-style so-and-so-needs-it-most. Anyone who whines about being in a guild with a point system either a) doesn't understand the concept of maximum benefit to the guild leading to more loot in the long run or b) belongs to a guild with a crappy system. Both are equally possible.

Point systems only work as well as they're balanced. Look at what you raid, the quality and quantity of drops, and balance that against how quickly you plan to have points acrue. One per raid? One per boss? Time based? Otherwise you end up with old-timers having a bizarre number of points, and maintaining that edge.

If you're implementing a new system, your first loot policy won't work forever, if it works at all. Be open to the evolution of the policy to match guild needs.

And of course someone needs to track the points, but if you have a small handful of guild looters, its not too bad.
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:14 AM   #13
Rubenn Zar'shek
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The quick and easy bout point systems, They're so damn right...that they're so wrong. Your loot basically requires you to come to every raid.

Example, an FT item with the classes Clr/dru/shm. This is debateable, but clerics that have to stand in CH rotations should get pick at the shield, but with the point system in the way it makes everything so fair. If a particular druid has attended more raids then that cleric then the druid would be able to bid more points. Thus, the system works.

This also keeps the whiners from not whining. If someone starts whining you can tell them they should play more and attend more raids. If they say they can't because of personal RL issues they shouldn't be in that guild in the first place. I think the majority of the guilds that use the point system are "raiding guilds" (IE: CE, MF, Aff, etc).

Sometimes when you see someone win something you just wanna say something, but remember....The system works so well, it's wrong =p. But it can't be wrong if it's working right =p.

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Old 01-09-2003, 08:01 AM   #14
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they were ass this past CPL man you guys need to get some sheet better coverage wise
Your telling me man. Even though I was never a big fan of ANY match coverage other than the TFC stuff done by Gunslinger(God he's cool, eh? I dont even play TFC.) I still felt compelled to listen in. Thing is more and more new clans are coming about and for some odd reason dont want CkR coverage of matches. It was always great for teams before, to get thier name out there and what not. So with limited options the coverage has become...well...bleh.

Also some technical problems(I assume your also refering to the mass amounts of choppy-ness while being broadcast live).

I always got more enjoyment from a fuckin' scrimbot than a match coverage by any station. I'm in it for the music. CkR is probably the only station you can hear Hendrix, Papa Roach, Snoop, The Cardigans and the Star Wars Theme music in a line up. Granted theres WAY to much offspring. But the reason CkR has as many listeners as it does now is purely because of it's relation to the CS comunity. I'm sure they'll get the shit together and bring it back like 'in the day'. Just give it some time.

As far as work for them? Well...let's just say I dont recieve a pay check.

Last edited by CrypteXY; 01-09-2003 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 01-09-2003, 08:50 AM   #15
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I remember suggesting a point system to someone on the Emarr board back in 2000 and got ribbed for it...

Well, back then I wanted to preemptively dodge any loot squables in TGL so I borrowed some ideas and created a merit system for us. It ended up being fiendishly complex, and almost drove me insane keeping up with it. If you're going to implement one for your guild, which I highly recommend, keep it simple.

I really feel bad for anyone who has to distribute loot in an EQ guild with more than 25 or 30 members. We got up to 50 and I thought I was going to go out of my mind, never mind 70+ members. *shudder*

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Old 01-09-2003, 09:56 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Davek
What is DKP?

Haven't heard this acronym before.
Dragon Kill Points. =)
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Old 01-09-2003, 09:58 AM   #17
darue_ivywood
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thanks for replies...

this is something that i was wondering about..

especially in a casual player scenario..

ex:

Player x is online ALL the time, but only attends 40% of the activities..

Player y is online half the time of player x, yet attends 90% of the activites.

Now with some point systems, that could make them roughly equal in the point standings, yet player y clearly devotes more online time to guild functions than player x. /sigh

...also, if you all dont mind sharing your secrets, how do yours work?

I also understand that its all towards making the guild stronger as a whole, which is why the questions to begin with as to how it works, if it works, and if so..what works best.

and Parum..im lost on that acronym too...whats DKP ?
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:25 AM   #18
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Dragon Kill Points. =)

Ah, ok!

We use more of a Raid Attendance Point system...not all raids are on Dragons
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:54 AM   #19
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DKP system is by far the best way to do loot IMO.

Those who raids and helps the guild get loot, nothing is more fair.

Allocation leads to whining and officers gets real worn out.

Randoming loot is based on pure luck and will not serve a high end guild good IMO.

DKP is fair, whining reduces to the minimum. Really is a good loot system.

of course you need people willing to put effort into administrating the DKP base.
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Old 01-09-2003, 11:15 AM   #20
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Well here's an example of how ours worked, in some detail. I would assume EVERYONE has a simpler system, or at least I hope:

Every mob had a point value assigned to it depending on difficulty, or as incentive to get people to show up for it. For example if we killed something every week it'd be 3 points, if it was something that dropped highly desirable loot it would be 5 points, and if it were something nobody wanted to ever kill, it was 9 or 10 points.

Each character (not player) had a running tally of points they'd accrued, each raid they'd attend would garner them additional points. I kept all of these in an Excel workbook and entered them by hand after every raid. I saved this weekly to html and put it on the secret Grey Legion website for all the members to review. Point status and raiding history were freely shared and available to all guild members. Applicants could accrue points in trust until they were made full members. Everyone started with 10 points regardless.

Different items had different point values assigned, depending on their value to the player and guild, and difficulty in obtaining. Planar armor was excluded. Droppable loot generally had a much higher point value than no-drop. Officers could veto someone bidding on an item. If nobody wanted an item it would go into the guild bank for later distribution or for sale if nobody bid on it after a set period of time. No-drop loot was left to rot.

We also had a hand-me-down system, where someone could turn in droppable loot like haste items back in to the guild for redistribution. Doing this would return part of the points spent for the item to the character.

If I were to go back and do it again, I'd make it much simpler.

Last edited by Codsan; 01-09-2003 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:35 PM   #21
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We use more of a Raid Attendance Point system...not all raids are on Dragons
DKP was just the original name. System has nothing to do with 'only' dragons.
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Old 01-10-2003, 03:44 AM   #22
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ssetti: sorry, i can't help myself... but good points :P
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Old 01-10-2003, 07:19 AM   #23
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Default Points Systems

Basic system for CE is one point per mob, with some exceptions of 1/2 a point for mobs that only take a short time to take down, and 2 points for a mob like Tunare where it will take you 5-8 hours to clear PoG.

Loot is pointed at a fixed point value by the loot committe, and can have any of the following values: 1,5,10,15,20,25.

Once an item drops, if you want in, you put your name forward, and if more than person wants the same item, the one with the most points wins. The points are then deducted from your points total. Thier is no bidding system.

Their are some basically accepted rules i.e. casters dont bid on haste items, tanks don't bid on FT items, but other than that, people can bid on what they like. If a 150hp item comes up, and a caster can win it over a tank, then noone will say 'only tanks get high AC/HP items'

Most people use common sense though, and where an item clearly belongs to a certain class, they wont bid for it, even if it would be an upgrade, and they have enough points to win it. You wont find many warriors bidding on some uber ratio 1HP item for example.

Downside? Is a pain to administer, and the people who look after our loot points system are nothing short of saints.
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Old 01-10-2003, 07:42 AM   #24
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From what I have read here I would have to agree that the point system is best for pure "raiding" guilds but really does not work for the casual ones.

In our guild it is always NBG. Sure they want to equip the most frequent players first but it is quite hard to do when everyone attending needs gear. It isn't quite fair to penalize guild members when they can't always attend raids. It helps to evenly distribute the gear so you are prepared for every scenerio regardless of who is logged on. It is pointless to have a tank decked out but leave the only cleric logged for the raid with the smallest mana pool just because they can't raid 6 days a week ... some people that play actually have lives ! Just knowing they have a possibility of upgrading one item during the raid causes excitement and eagerness to attend more frequently.
I can honestly say that I fully support my guilds loot policy because we have adults that can follow how it works. We also have a spot for hand-me-downs ... the winner posts what their item was and anyone that needs it posts and gives justification to their upgrade.
If you create contention among people who are there to support each other you lose the entire purpose of being a guild in the first place.

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Old 01-10-2003, 08:22 AM   #25
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Tuan is the keeper of our points.

Our system is complex enough that I won't even try to explain it. Maybe Tuan will come and reply.

I think Officer Allocation and a very well defined understood and accepted point system are both good options. I have played in both and I liked them both. I don't think there is one perfect system. I think a good guild with a sensible set of officers will figure out which way works best for them and thier members.

Good Luck
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