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Old 12-18-2002, 12:46 AM   #1
Kemora
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Default Two Towers...

Was awesome =O

More action then FOTR, but thats expected... very well done. Guess FOTR is gonna have to move to #2 on my all time favorite list =p

If you have any fears that FOTR was a fluke.. i think TT pretty much should put those to rest :P
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Old 12-18-2002, 02:01 AM   #2
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This movie was incredible. I just got home from seeing it. The company my friend works for rented out an entire theater, and he got us all tickets. I won a full sized poster from the movie in a little raffle they had.

Seriously. A must see.

I wasn't a big fan of FOTR (I swear I'm the only person in the US that didn't like the movie) but I loved this one. Only problem is, it's still loooooooooong, and I have a hard time sitting through long movies.
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Old 12-18-2002, 02:32 AM   #3
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I thought that it was indeed a brilliant piece of film making.

However, there were a TON of characterization changes that I still question the necessity of. My initial reactions to some of them were, quite frankly, bristling indignation. But honestly I'll have to see it again to better formulate an opinion.

Yet that does not detract from the spectacular production values and good pacing of it.

Theo
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Old 12-18-2002, 02:57 AM   #4
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Okay, I may not be able to postulate necessities of changes or not, but I think I am able to name some of the ones that stuck out to me the most, and let others start a discussion on it.

These are in order that my mind is kicking them out, which I think may be safely construed to be a personal prioritization of the differences.

1.) Celeborn is not slain in Helm's Deep. In fact, he's never slain.

2.) Legolas is the only Elf, Noldor or Sindar, present at the Battle of Helm's Deep.

3.) Théoden is not at all indecisive once he is cured. Fearful, yes. Harboring doubt, yes. But not indecisive or hesitent to face his destiny or doom.

4.) The battle-bonding line "our swords will shine together" is shared between Aragorn and Éomer, not Aragorn and Théoden. In fact, the depth and magic of the Aragorn/Éomer friendship is not addressed at all.

5.) Frodo is by no means as weak-willed as he is portrayed. Samwise does not restrain him in any of those occassions. The strength of Frodo is that he restrains himself, although it sometimes renders him a useless mush of tortured martyr which Samwise helps him carry on through. But Samwise does NOT in any way shape or form alter or intervene in the nature of Frodo's burden.

6.) Faramir does not succumb to the tempation of the Ring, in any way, shape or form. And he certainly does not bind them and march them to Osgiliath.

7.) Treebeard (Fangorn) is the most pro-intervention of all the Ents from the get-go.

8.) The only characters not altered are Sméagol, Grima Wormtongue, Éowyn, and Samwise. Even if certain events are changed or omitted, the nature of their characters are unchanged. By this I mean that even if they do or say things they didn't in the book, they are things that their characters would do or say. Everyone else, and yes I mean EVERYONE else is portrayed differently. The humble are portrayed proudly. The decisive are shown as vascillating. Heck, even Háma is portrayed differently.

9.) The union of Elves and Men is represented by Aragorn. There is no particular allegiance between Rohan and any Elf kingdom. It is an important part of Aragorn's character that he is the descended heir of Elendil, thence of Elros Tar-Minyatur, which is where his kinship with Elrond comes from. This which traces even further back to Tuor and Idril and Beren and Luthiën showing the unity of the Houses of Men and the two Middle-Earthian elf clans (Noldor and Sindar), and through Luthiën and Melian, even Maiar.

10.) The remaining nobility of Numenor is represented in the character of Faramir. A character trait totally unexplored and unused. He is the counterpoint of Boromir, the latter day less pure-blooded Numenorean.

Any others that aren't jumping out at me right now?

Theo

Last edited by Théodwyn; 12-18-2002 at 03:07 AM.
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Old 12-18-2002, 03:17 AM   #5
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Default ???

I heven't seen the film yet, but these changes you mention are a bit disturbing.

What the hell is Celeborn even doing at Helm's Deep?
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Old 12-18-2002, 08:34 AM   #6
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I was just remembering the faces.

I was wrong. It wasn't Celeborn, it was Haldir.

Still, there were no Elves of the Golden Wood at the Battle of Helm's Deep, let alone a regiment of archers, nor was Haldir a captain (he was a scout).

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Old 12-18-2002, 08:34 AM   #7
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Default re: Celeborn?

That was Celeborn at Helms???? I thought it was Aragorns
ranger buddies. Where the hell was Galadriel if that was
Celeborn??? She isnt gonna just let her 4000 year old hubby
die on the rocks! AND She has the ring of adamant!

I agree that Faramir was VERY badly handled.
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Old 12-18-2002, 08:36 AM   #8
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Chiteng,

Haldir gave the "Elves and Men, buddies again" speech. The Dunedain of Arnor don't appear till RotK (which I doubt they'll cover), and they are led by Halbarad. They are a company on horse.

These were a regiment of archers in gilded helms (a la Lorién). The pointed ears are kind of a give-away.

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Old 12-18-2002, 09:37 AM   #9
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Default re: BOTR

What we need now is a 'Bored of the rings' movie =)

I swear that if you are a true Tolkien lover, and if you really got into middle earth, 'Bored of the rings' is the funniest book I have ever read, hands down.

I liked the additions to 'Fellowship' in the 4 CD set. It really does
help explain where everything fits.

I am unhappy about Bombadil missing also, but I guess thats just me.

Also I am not against yound women but hell anyone other than Liv Tyler! Not yet sure about Kate Blanchet.
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Old 12-18-2002, 01:15 PM   #10
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Sweet. They didn't fuck up my Eowyn. It's safe for me to go see it now.
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Old 12-18-2002, 01:37 PM   #11
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Many may have seen this..

but did the movie go something like this?

http://www.cloud10.org/jack.htm
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Old 12-18-2002, 02:58 PM   #12
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Lets nit pick the fucking movie.

Holy god, a movie doesnt follow a book line for line, act for act, character by character. We've never seen that before have we.

Remind me not to invite you to a movie that might be of any interest.
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Old 12-18-2002, 03:05 PM   #13
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Default re: Slayne

I can only wonder which of us you are yelling at.

In any case: Aishen, Eowyn is handled (so far) exactly as she was in the book. And she gives Blanchett a run for her money.
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Old 12-18-2002, 03:24 PM   #14
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The movie was an excellent overall visual representation of the book. Yes, freedome was taken with a few things but that is hardly any reason to nit pick it apart. Many of the greatest movies ever made can be nit picked to the point of silliness.

It was entertaining, it told the story, and the innacuracies portrayed in the movie are not so disturbing or monumental as to change the story.
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Old 12-18-2002, 04:15 PM   #15
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just got back from it....besides the reel of the movie getting jumbled and jumping back 12 minutes....then jumping forward again 3 minutes later it was great!!
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Old 12-18-2002, 06:16 PM   #16
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While I don't share in the picking the movie apart, as this was truly a grand second movie and am only sour to the fact that I have to wait a year to see what they've done with the conclusion.

I do understand however those that did but then maybe when they release the DVD those slight differences will be brought into better light. Time will tell. Go enjoy the movie and leave the books at home on the book case where they belong.

Time to go see it again...
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Old 12-18-2002, 06:50 PM   #17
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I have yet to see the Two Towers, but I did buy the extended DVD version of Fellowship, and in the director's commentary, Peter Jackson and Co. do explain most of the changes they had to make. Obviously, adapting such an epic tale is a gargantuan task, but I think they have done a superb job so far.

Think about it, some elements are simply not possible: Gandalf departing for 17 years to research the ring for example. This had to be chopped down to a few months. So on and so forth. Just the fact that I get to see the book that inspired so many visuals in my head is enough. Then I get to compare what I thought something should look like to what the director's impression was.

Can't wait to see the second and third movies.
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Old 12-18-2002, 08:46 PM   #18
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While I am disappointed with some of the changes from the books, overall I am impressed with the movies. The Two Towers was an awe-inspiring feature - with the grand views and usage of camera-work and CGI that made the first a run-away hit. I can definitely see the same happening with The Two Towers.

If you enjoyed the first - go see this one - if you like the genre see both...
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Old 12-18-2002, 08:47 PM   #19
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Whew...I was worried.

Thank god it was for nothing though. That wasn't Celeborn. That was one of the other Rangers. The one who made the comment that a Dwarf breathes so loud, you can shoot him in the dark.

Celeborn was the consort of Galadriel, and didn't appear in this movie.

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Old 12-19-2002, 01:25 AM   #20
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I just got back from it, awesome!!

And yes, that was not Celeborn, although about half of the theater thought it was.
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:22 AM   #21
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I thought the movie rocked. I care not how it deviates from the book, it was a damn good movie in its own right. Some of you people need to seriously loosen up.
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:41 AM   #22
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I'd say it was Bregalad (Quickbeam) who was the most pro-intervention Ent. After all, he had decided before half the entmoot was finished.

Another change that has been made is that the women and children flee to Helm's Deep, from Edoras. Helm's Deep is halfway between the border of Rohan and Saruman, and Edoras, so in fact they send them towards the enemy? In the book, they're sent to Dunharrow, which is high in the mountains south of Edoras. It's also important since it harbors the start of the Paths of the Dead.

I can live with that, even though I don't find it necessary. The changes to Faramir, who's a real hero in the book (and not so much in the movie), and to Gimli, who seems to mostly be a comic sidekick, on the other hand...
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:45 AM   #23
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I honestly expect Faramir to "get his own" in Return of the King. The movie (The Two Towers) doesn't cover quite as much ground as the book does.

Gimli is comic relief, but none the less, he gets his moments of "this is me...this is me wading through Orcs left and right". I can live with that.

But no, Faramir was cinematically potrayed as having a moment of patriotic weakness when he wasn't in full awareness of the facts. I think in Return of the King we'll see Faramir the Hero.

Arnwolf
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:59 AM   #24
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Default nit-picking?

i didnt read too much picking of nits.

i agree with Theo's comments about changing the "nature" of some of the characters. i dont know if some of those things would have taken too much time or not. so maybe they had to make those changes.

the changes that Theo addresses are changes that were made to the intrinsic nature of the characters. she comments that the movie is still great.

take the example of Arwen in FotR. her PRESENCE was magnified but i dont feel her character was. i can live with that. i know a lot of people didnt like it and thought it was a bone thrown to the feminists. i didnt see her that way. the book is repleat with powerful women...and this from an author that lived when women were not treated as they are now. (let's not open that can of worms here)

also, i liked the extended version of the dvd because it includes gimli's infatuation with Galadriel. and while their chars were not changed, the relationship between Gimli and Legolas was not fleshed out well in FotR.

an example of staying true to a character is Hannibel Lecter. in the book (which i read before the movie) he is utterly sans a conscience or hollywoodish i-was-abused-please-feel-sorry-for- me-so-I-can-appear-on-Oprah "side" to him. the movie would have been TOTALLY different if they had introduced a "softer" or human side to him. it would have changed the essence of the movie.

equally, Frodo's unconquerable will (tho it wavered) had a visceral reaction in a lot of Tolkein fans. it made us believe in that part in ourselves. so i agree that frodo's resoluteness should not be altered.

another very minor point that i didnt like so much in LotR was Boromir. They nailed his nature, but i think they gave him the short end of the stick when it came to portraying his battle skills.

while Aragon is portrayed in the book and the movie as the "best" human fighter, Boromir, in the book, was only marginally lower. they did show him killing about 8 or 10 orcs and his ability to be a pin-cushion. but in the book he is written (if memory serves) as on the ground amid a pile of 20 orc bodies. his nature was far less than perfect but his battle skills were truely heroic.

before anyone reads this as a dismissal of the movie(s), it aint. i loved the first movie and still have not seen TTT. some of us die hard fans like to talk about the nuances of the character or events in the book.

if that's not your cup of tea, ..... move along.....nothing to see here!

erynlor the nerd

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Last edited by Erynlor; 12-19-2002 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 12-19-2002, 12:32 PM   #25
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Mahtan,

I think you're right. Quickbeam was the most pro-action. I sit corrected.



Erynlor,

Exactly! Thank you!



Everyone else,

Indeed, I thought it was a great film. I hope the film-makers get tons of props for their work. Cinematically the film was wonderful. The depiction of places and scenery bring a tear to the eye, they were so sweeping and lush. To say nothing of the FX and battle sequences, which are also breathtaking.

And I'm going to repeat myself: I haven't figured out which of the characterization changes might have really been necessary or not. But it is cause for some thought on my part. I have a very strong connection with the source material; these books meant a lot to me, and they still do.

I am somewhat surprised at how many of you are so adversarial about the issue. Moreover during a time like this, Christmas-time. Either you don't read so closely or you were just looking for a chance to say "chill the fvck out".

Theo
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