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Old 10-08-2002, 04:54 PM   #1
Diziet
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Default Big changes coming!


Wow

eqlive.station.sony.com/c...p?id=52118


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Old 10-08-2002, 05:15 PM   #2
k9kroz
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YAY FU(K MAGES!!!!!!!!

also.. wth is up with that monk shiat..

-Ishial Tripod (60 Magi of Brell)
-Scaledfists (52 Monk of Cazic)
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Old 10-08-2002, 05:35 PM   #3
Greell the druid
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i'd just like to throw out a huge "@#%$ you k thnx" to verant interactive---my monk's just fine with his ability to outlast plate classes and chainclasses...and now they are "still good but not as good as plate and chain classes." wtf? thanks but no thanks :P

better stock up on AA points now---soon they'll make it impossible for monks to solo.

~Greell~
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:05 PM   #4
Barrymore Yorke
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At the risk of coming across as a huge @#%$ to some of you, I just want to say: "Heh."
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:05 PM   #5
Kogur
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Default .


i'd just like to throw out a huge "@#%$ you k thnx" to verant interactive---my monk's just fine with his ability to outlast plate classes and chainclasses...and now they are "still good but not as good as plate and chain classes." wtf? thanks but no thanks :P

better stock up on AA points now---soon they'll make it impossible for monks to solo.
Not impossible, but probably with the same difficulty lvl as a warrior. =)

All I can say is Hoorah VI on this one, and it's about time!
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:06 PM   #6
Dwarkarn
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And today on Jerry Springer "When Nerfage Attacks!!!"
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:11 PM   #7
Zel Greyweather
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Changes to monks sound reasonable to me. If monks don't like it they can go and make a shadow knight if they want to take the hits. I can see it now, though... A_Monk yells, 'But we're the main pullers for our raids and groups, what do we do when a mob sees through our feign death, or our feign death breaks from a spell or breath attack and have to wait to feign again? We'll die!"

Cheal changes, err... makes no real sense to me. Like the druid's Tunare's Renewal spell, in most cases they will max out someone's HP anyway. If what people think is true for PoP and a fully equipped, fully AA'd warrior gets to break 10k HP it'll only heal 75% of their total HP, but seeing as how clerics start heals at 30-40%, there's no real difference. Especially if you have back up healers spam healing in the background.

The one minute timers on mod rods and what not don't sound that reasonable to me. Better idea would probably be keep all rods the same and have the spell have a 30 second to one minute recast time instead. Less mod rods camped on the ground during fights, and if the clerics eat too many at once and the mages aren't ready to summon enough yet there could be risk. That would be Verant's intent, though, right?

Manaburn... well... I haven't had any real experience with a mana burning wizard in a group or a raid. All I can say to that is... Warriors will be happy again, and so will the Kunark outside dragons. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=""> And rising guilds looking for new challanges will be able to experience them as they used to be before Mana Burn groups.


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Old 10-08-2002, 07:20 PM   #8
Araya LeBon
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I can see it now, though... A_Monk yells, 'But we're the main pullers for our raids and groups, what do we do when a mob sees through our feign death, or our feign death breaks from a spell or breath attack and have to wait to feign again? We'll die!"
Um....no we already do that. Now we'll just die a lot more. So convenient that this happens right before the level cap is raised. Now I get to lose MORE exp on raids, and now that XP actually matters.

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Old 10-08-2002, 07:36 PM   #9
Antheus Emarr
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Default ironic


It's kind of ironic how verant feels that things like manaburn and mod rods trivialized encounters, when the truth of the matter is they only made them more reasonable. By taking out the rods, you need to accomplish the same feat in less time. So A) more clerics or B) more dmg, or C) a combination of both. So basically by taking out these things because they make encounters "take less skill" what they have done is made encounters require more numbers so that they still require less skill...it just doesnt make sense.

And as for the cleric change, i think that they realized few people would actually use the other heals because they're not particularly effective, so by making the best heal less effective, you relatively make the others more...wtf-ever

Arclite Pseudo-Retired Cleric
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Old 10-08-2002, 07:58 PM   #10
Bulvyne
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Default Re: ironic


Heh...

All I can say is, Monks REALLLLLY had it coming. They've been the "golden child" of Verant for so long now, they eventually HAD to do something to put Monks at least somewhat "in their place"....

A Leather class... averaging similar AC to warriors, with definite better offensive capability than warriors... Warriors, a plate class.

It's been unbalanced for a LONNNNG time now, and I am actually in awe that VI can admit to it. Hopefully, they will not cave into the chorus of whining which is inevitable.

This does NOT alter "monk's job" at all. They still pull. So now they don't have the AC/Damage Soaking of a warrior. Big deal. They have to be slightly more careful.

I love my guild monks to death, but seeing them with similar HP, similar AC, and better offense compared to our guild knights/warriors is just plain crap.

Yay VI on that part!

As for the other changes, IF they really do follow through and make 20 minute battles a thing of the past, then I am all for the changes. Even though such battles required their own types of 'strategy and tactics', most of those high-end encounters sure did deal more with 'endurance', attendance, and the prayer that two or three clerics didnt go LD.

Clerics with 7500 "Almost Complete Heal" is still superior to Druid/Shammy "Wanna-be Complete Heal". That's pretty obvious.

The Rod changes, tho, kinda hammer Mages. I've always felt bad for those pajama-wearers, and now it seems like they are taking it in the shorts.

Manaburn changes. Well, while I can't say I am thrilled or sad about these changes, I guess the groups of 12-15 mana-burning-whatever-got-in-their-way wizards on certain servers really kinda asked for this change, as well. Hope they enjoyed it while it lasted.

I can't wait to read all the "account cancellation promises" that are also inevitable. Time to go read Monkly Business for some REAL entertainment.

Bul

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Old 10-08-2002, 08:52 PM   #11
Braydin Firecaster
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For those that don't visit R&F go take a look, mod rod nerf doesnt just effect mages, it effects EVERYONE.
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Old 10-08-2002, 09:15 PM   #12
Muertissimo
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Default Re: ironic


I totally agree with Bul on this, there's no logical reason a monk should be able to absorb as much damage as a knight/warrior. Block, Parry, Dodge, Riposte, etc. sure, no problem. I can totally see someone with martial arts skills being able to avoid getting hit better than some dumb beefy tank. But standing toe to toe and taking less damage from defense/AC alone is pretty silly. Not to mention monks get to use their Stonestance every 12 minutes which lets them take 1/10th of the damage being dished out for 12 seconds. Still more useful than Leechcurse our level 60 Disc or even Unholy Aura, both of which refresh in 67 minutes at level 60 (72 minutes 59 and under whee!). Add to that their rapid feign ability and run3 and I really don't see much difference for pulling, only when they decide they want to tank

Heck, with monks abilities to avoid blows they'll probably still end up making better tanks heh. Just that when a hit lands it's gonna hurt more, that's about it.

The CH being nerfed at this point I don't see any problem with it. I mean how many people you know with over 7500 hp's buffed on them personally? Plus, even if it becomes possible to reach 10,000 hp's buffed with PoP, 30% of that would be 3000 or 1 1/2 bubs of life. So if someones hp's get down to that, a 7500 hp heal is still gonna fill em up. Heck, I didn't even know there was a cap on CH till now heh, and I guarantee you I'll never have enough HP's being an SK to take full advantage of even the nerfed CH

Mod rods I really have no comment on other than if what Verant says is true about changing the encounters so they're not just routine CH lines with enough mana batteries to last the duration then it may be a good change if it means mages get to go more offensive. Though somehow I doubt they'll be able to tune them enough to where people's roles are going to change all that much. If they do then yay, if not then sorry mages

Last but not least, manaburn, I saw that one coming a while back. In fact I think I remember reading it somewhere as a possible fix. Yeah it sucks wizards can't go around like a pack of wild animals burning down everything in their way /snicker. But realistically, on fights where manaburn actually gets used to it's full advantage, they usually last longer than 3 or 4 minutes anyway I'd think. I see no difference if wizards dump their mana 2 minutes apart during the course of a 10 minute fight or if they all do it at the end. The end result is the wizzies out of mana and therefore useless until they med/rod some mana back. I think they actually have a better damage to mana ratio using their normal nukes than if they just blow off a bar of mana if I'm not mistaken. Was kinda fun burnin down Trak few days back with 2 groups and 3 manaburners though But then again, a boss mob like that shouldn't be THAT easy pre-velious or not imo.

Anyway, enough rambling. Gonna be lots of flames about these changes I'm sure. But so far I see no reason to get my panties in a knot, they wouldn't put a mob in the game that was unkillable if it was meant to be killed.
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Old 10-09-2002, 12:39 AM   #13
Valrus Delkor
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Default UHHHH WTF


ohh dear.. monks with lower AC ..... greeeeeeeeeeat

Ranger > Monk 8(


I swear they are trying to destroy everything about the game that we like so we all move to EQ2 when it comes out. Next thing we know they will remove elves from the game because their ears are more pointy then desired. /sigh


~Valrus Del`kor 52 retired necromancer
~Zraiz Jimmykiker 52 (might retire now that I can tank a large rat)
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Old 10-09-2002, 05:04 AM   #14
Greywolffe
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Default Re: UHHHH WTF


can't read the link from work... Post the message for me please.
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Old 10-09-2002, 05:20 AM   #15
Arnwolf Magnuson
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Default Re: UHHHH WTF


<shrugs> These are just more challenges to overcome..and even though I haven't been a raiding member of Magister in quite some time, I have no doubt they'll overcome these new obstacles.

Arnwolf
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Old 10-09-2002, 05:48 AM   #16
Raelven
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Default you must be whining...err...joking...


I think these changes will be great if they get implemented properly. Monks will just have to get used to waiting around for full buffs now like everyone else There are many things that can be done to help monks live through pulls, tho I agree with Bulvyne, the skilled ones won't have much trouble adapting, they'll just have to be careful. And ask buffs! *grin*

I'm actually happy for mages, no more mod-rod machines, they can actually get some nukes in and use pets and do something fun other than summon drop summon drop summon drop summon drop summon drop summon drop rod rod rod summon drop summon drop... I'd have lost my mind at SoL release if I were a mage.

I'm sorry the wizzies got nerfed because a few abused MB by KSing everything in sight on some servers. A couple of idiots always have to ruin it for everyone else. Oldest story in the world.

No more Cheal rotations? I would think clerics would rejoice at that. Seems to me that VI is trying to bring some skill back to the game, beyond being able to count to 10.
About damm time.

I'd welcome real strategic fights that don't require 60 people with DSL connections to all log in and stay for half a freakin day... with open arms.


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Old 10-09-2002, 06:32 AM   #17
Bodar the Mage
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Default Nerf good/bad


Amen Raelven:
We can actually get back to our old "what is my pet taunting" stories, instead of whining about some rogue running in circles in front of us dropping rods on the ground and pressing cancel while waiting for the next pull.

As for monks they got screwed.

Bodar 56 Mage might live again
Horseradish 49 Monk his days are done...bazaar mule for life

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Old 10-09-2002, 06:47 AM   #18
Fadien Freespirit
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Default Re: Nerf good/bad


If what people think is true for PoP and a fully equipped, fully AA'd warrior gets to break 10k HP it'll only heal 75% of their total HP

I don't think you understand how the Druid Cheal works.


This spell heals up to 75% of the targets hitpoints to a maximum of 2925 hitpoints.

Meaning a warrior fully equipped, and all that stuff, with 10k hp, Tunare's Renewal would only heal about 1/3 of their HP, or even as low as a quarter of it (assuming they got it up to 12k)

Just thought I'd point that out....
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Old 10-09-2002, 07:06 AM   #19
Snaz the Snaptail
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Default Actually


Actually, mages will now need to make a hotkey to target every caster on the raid and cast a modrod onto him. They will have to cast once per minute on each person, they will have wasted mana if they discover the person they are casting on did not use their modrod in the previous minute . . .

Mucho fun.
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Old 10-09-2002, 08:06 AM   #20
Zel Greyweather
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Default .


Lets think of the Monk defense case this way... Ranger defensive abilities were/are really kind of low compared to other melee stuff. So what did the majority of them do? They looked into beefing up their AC/HP instead of just +stats stuff. High level monks will probably be in the same situation with these changes when they go into effect. My ranger can take hits fairly well, as long as he's getting hit by a normal mob and not a big boss mob type thing that quads for 250's+. I've seen some other rangers pull some killer moves as well. But do I/they dare tanking super high end situations? Probably not. I'd much rather let warriors and the knights in for that. Monks will just have to rethink their game plans. These changes probably will not alter the play much of high end monks who have above average equipment. They will hurt those who are, say, under level 57 with crappy to average items... who made their monks thinking "Oh boy, monks are the ultimate fighting class, they can solo and group better than anyone else!"

That's just my opinion, though. Unless they alter the AC multiplier or whatever on items in skill-base to take away 200-400 AC from what the player used to have. If they get hit as hard as INT casters do at any level or equipment, then they then have a real problem from a real change. The people complaining about these changes don't take some of these things into thought. They think that one little change to defensive abilities is going to ruin their class. Its not. Rangers show that themselves in normal situations, but not high end raiding encounters. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=""> Even if you do say "But Rangers use chain armor and we can only use leather!", I don't really think there's all that much of a difference.

Also people keep saying "Ah man, all these nerfs and changes, it'll make the game even harder with the fights already taking a half an hour each!", yet they don't seem to have seen the part that said "We're going to tone fights down in relation to these changes." Understand that and pipe down. Although, really if you think about it, when they made the resist change you still couldn't cast magic spells on such mobs as Swirlspine Seahorses (those 100% MR ones) with magic base spells even after a cast of Tashanian. So it makes you think, will they only tone down regular high end mob encounters and not the superior boss mobs like NToV, Kael, Ssra, and Vex Thal, or will they tone them all down together?

And yes, Valrus, with these changes there will be a definite yes to "Zelgadis > Eblan" You shouldn't get all worked up about this sort of change yet, I don't think. You still have a while to wait and one of your two monks are only level 52. At that point you're still about a puppy compared to the other higher levels, because you have 8 more levels ahead of you (more with PoP), more skills to learn, definitely more equipment to get to add to your supply. O.o Don't worry about it.


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Old 10-09-2002, 09:18 AM   #21
Chiatae
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Default Re: .


/wave Enchanters!

Now you can Rune us before each and every pull! Stock up on those peridots!!


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Old 10-09-2002, 05:13 PM   #22
Xerxese Stormcaster
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Default Re: .


Havent been a monk that long so Im kinda seeking to understand this whole nerf thing.

If say a monk would take 5% or even 10% more dmg than usual, it shouldnt matter much, I mean after all it's but 5% or 10% less hp at the end of each encounter. I dont think the person who's pulling would let his/her hp slips that low that s/he dies because of that 5-10%. It's true; down time would be longer or heal may need to be more frequent but is it ultimately a severe impediment to the class? With higher dmg output and FD single pull monk can still solo better than warrior.

However, I dont believe in nerfing a class. After all, we should not be punished retroactively because someone in VI lacks foresights in designing the game. What kind of client service is this that they take back an incentive. They should give equal or more incentive to the other classes to balance everyone out; and make "everyone" happy. Lets send the game designers back to client-appreciation classes!!!
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Old 10-09-2002, 06:43 PM   #23
Abyzzmyll
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a hard rain is gonna fall .........................

/kill EQ



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Old 10-10-2002, 07:16 AM   #24
Kiliara
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Perhaps those cheering the nerfing of monks are missing a few things:

1. Monks are better at tanking than Rangers, SK's and Pallies? Sounds pretty fair to me, monks don't get spells. Should we nerf hybrids and take away their ability to cast? Of course not, don't be ridiculous. Should we add spells to monks? Nope, that would be silly also.

2. Monks are better than warriors at tanking? Um, since when? We already take some serious hits in hp/ac/weight. In full engame armor, perhaps there is a comparison, so how about we nerf the endgame monks versus all of 'em? Last I looked, I didn't have taunt and couldn't outtank a similarly equipped and levelled warrior in ANY situation. I can get aggro from said warrior, but my puny hp just don't stand up to the abuse. Monks avoid 6% more damage than warriors. Only the finest equipment gets a monk above 1200ac.

The only balance problem here is that endgame all/all equipment is stupidly Monty Haul. Nerfing monk mitigation does NOT improve any other class, nor does it mean that they will get more groups. It does NOT solve the problem. It will affect pulling, it will cut the numbers of monks playing, and it will throw off the balance of the game by making monks less able to take damage than other PURE MELEE classes with nothing to balance that loss. Are monks whining about this? Yup. I can kind of see why. What I don't understand is the people from other classes cheering about it. I wouldn't go to a wizard or mage board and post a "Nya nya" message to them. Why must we hate other classes? I don't hate any class in the game, regardless of what powers and abilities they have.
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Old 10-10-2002, 08:59 AM   #25
Shadon
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Well said Kiliara.

Monks cannot out tank warriors. Saying they do just goes to show you don't understand the game mechanics at all. A similarly equipped and leveled warrior can have more then twice the hp of a monk.

In the high end game, AC loses any meaning past 1200-1500 depending on encouter. What it comes down to is pure HP. And monks don't even come close. Look at my dream gear link on magelo profile. Even if I had all that crap, I'd still not break 5k. And there's maybe 5-10 monks on ALL servers that even come close. Their guild tanks no doubt are similarly equipped and have 8kish hp.

Warriors should be able to take more hits and they are. Monks should be able to AVOID being hit more then any other class. Doesn't matter how they avoid it, AC or skills like Block, Riposte, Dodge. Nerfing our ability to avoid being hit ruins the martial artist aspect of being a monk. If they do this, they should at least bump up our skill caps for skills and or raise our dmg mitigation.

As for hybrids, they can be just as effective if not more effective as monks in tanking. First, they have more HP. They do not as much as a warrior mind you, but still more. Second, they get spells that when used properly help them keep agro and also prevent them from being hit. SK (Despair/Hate line, dots etc) and Pally (stun) not to mention they can heal themselves.

These changes don't affect us in normal groups... if a hybrid or warrior can't out tank me there it just means his equip sucks more then mine does. What it messes up is our ability to pull on raids, which can be compensated for by buffs (hopefully better ones to come out with PoP too) and skill. Ok no big loss there either.

It does ruin our ability to solo. And for those of you that say that is not a big deal, you probably don't like the idea of a monk anyways. We SHOULD be able to solo more effectively then a warrior. Warriors are the quintessential group tank. They have to have a healer with them or there's no way to get their hp back fast enough. But to compensate they get the best taunt skill and the best defensive disc in the game. Sure monks stonestance reduces 1/3 hp, but it only lasts for 12s and takes 4mins to reset at 60. Sure warriors disc takes 12 mins to reset but it LASTS for 3mins. Much better for high end mobs... even with disc, mend, buffs, etc I couldn't out tank a warrior for more then a minute.

Anyways, I see this as VI going nerf happy again due to enough people whining. What it's intent seems to be is get us to move to EQ2, which I guarantee you I won't be doing. This is yet another example of the bad CS VI is capable of. Read up on what they plan for EQ2 CS.

Anyone applauding this nerf is a sadist. I'm not targetting anyone individually. I just find it very rude when others applaud when you are affected negatively.
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