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Old 11-12-2002, 10:22 AM   #26
Azul
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My thoughts.

-Graveyards have made summon corpse worthless. /nerf necros/sks

-Camp a cleric when things go bad? Better be quick recovering.

-Have to get a rezz at graveyard once corpse pops. Cant drag it to the cleric.

-Nice if youre done raiding/exping. Dont have to do cr.

-I cant drag a wizzy/mage corpse around to raise for extra nukage. /cry
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Old 11-12-2002, 10:40 AM   #27
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Umm that doesnt work, GY timer is 15 minutes, rez timer on a dueled corpse is 10..
Bummer. Guess you can tell I don't duel all that often.

Guess you'll have to eat the 4% exp loss and convince a mob to kill you. In that zone, should take all of 12 seconds.
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:11 AM   #28
Barrymore Yorke
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Hey Barrymore !

Is that the same Barrymore I used to know? Years back... from almost back to Beta days?

You're right... I don't have PoP.

Tell me that my assessment is wrong. In fact, even better, show me why it's wrong.
Yup, Fyste, it's me! Known ya for ages now.

How can I show you that your assessmentis wrong if you don't have PoP and can't see how it works?

I'm not saying that I think the Graveyards should be installed in every zone. But the PoP zones were designed with them in mind, and are balanced as such.

These are high, high level zones. At 54 I am really only prepared for Justice, Disease, Innovation and Disease. Until I hit 60, I can't go any further without grave risk to myself and my guildmembers. Stuff in the zones that are still locked to me apparently aggros on >60 players from out of sight. They're deathtraps. The trash is hitting for 500. This is coming straight from my guildies who have managed to make their way through the Justice trials. Do you want to be doing CR from within these zones?

You can't compare the rest of the game to PoP, and you can't dismiss the Graveyards out of hand until you have been to these Planes and seen what they're like.

We died to a miniboss in Disease, way up in the Crypt of Decay. A regular CR would have been impossible, even for the finiest rogues and monks on our server. Without the graveyard, the only way it could have been done was with coffins. The Graveyard made it possible for us to collect our things, dust ourselves off, and go home without any further aggravation or misery. The only difference between the Graveyard and getting summoning coffins is the little bit of extra time it would have taken to go buy the coffins and bring them back. Personally, as a gnome necro, I'm glad to not have had to bother with the coffins.

Yeah, I know, you're wondering, "Well, so? Why not get the coffins?"

All I can say is you had to be there. You had to have died to the mob we died to. This was unlike anything I had seen before, even on a dragon raid. We just wanted OUT. And the Graveyard made it possible.
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:28 AM   #29
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I've been there.

Ok, I haven't BEEN to that zone. But I've been creamed by mobs that I NEVER expected to se in ANY zone. First forray into the new Cazic Thule throne room... I got summoned, doubled for hundreds from three mobs, hit by POISON based rain from two mobs simultaneously, then FD failed... JUST as I found out one of the mobs could translocate you out of a room. I happened to land next to my group. Remember... FD failed already, that means 11 seconds of aggro, right next to my group.

I've been there.

No Graveyards in CT, you get up & fight back in if you can, call your guild if you can't, or get coffins if they can't. That's the way it's played.

Now... given all that, are Graveyards REQUIRED for the PoP zones? Maybe. In theory I can see how they could design zones that require them. Hell, that's thier right. Personally I think if you've got a Necro / SK and Verant hasn't nerfed Summon Corpse for that zone, you ALWAYS have a way out without having the Graveyard hand you your body and gear on a silver platter.

But, remember the first poster in this thread?

You think they will ever implement the feature of PoP graveyards (dying...corpse popping to a semi-safe zone-in in 15 minutes) to pre-PoP dungeons?
VERY bad idea... like you said, the PoP zones might be designed for Graveyards. Pre-PoP zones definately were not. Graveyards in those zones just removes the Risk from the Risk / Reward equasion.

You can't tell me the Pre-PoP zones can't be done without Graveyards... Every one of em has been done sucessfully without Graveyards.

So, they rebalence the Pre-PoP zones that they add Graveyards to? Change the loot? The mobs? The pathing? Or just hand you your corpse after a 15 minute wait?

Anyway you look at it, Graveyards in Pre-PoP zones are bad. IMH( yet vocal )O

I love ya Barrymore, I do. But you'll never convince me that you NEED a Graveyard in any zone where Summon Corpse still works. Just cuts down the usefullness of Necros / SKs in those zones, and removes / reduces the Risk.

Let me ask you this...

If you hadn't known about the Graveyard and how it works, would you and your group have fought so far in? Or would you have gone slower, learned the zone better, brought more people, and maybe have been better prepared when you got to that Uber Thingy at the end?

Sorry... I really think they change the way people will play the game. I've got RL friends with PoP telling me how great they are too... and I'll be getting PoP sometime around Christmas. I doubt anyone's going to convince me, before or after I get PoP.
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:07 PM   #30
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There are reasons beyond the new added ease for players.

First off perhaps if you haven't ventured into the pop zones past the exp mobs you might not know how some of the quest/test fights go. The easiest for most to relate to will be the justice trials. In those trials your group/raid is ported to another hitherto unreachable part of the zone set aside just for your little battle. These areas can be mirrored so that more then one raid at a time can be run. Therefore there are places within many of the pop zones that you quite simply cannot corpse retrive from. It is my belief that this is the reason for the graveyards. Not to make game play easier for the casual player, though it does do that, that is merely a side benefit. Love it or hate it as you choice. I am not a great fan personally.

I do believe that in the tier 2 and higher zones the pop to graveyard timer is longer. I heard that Valor was 30 minutes rather then 15.
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:20 PM   #31
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I don't think anyone is ever really in danger of losing their corpses.. the only zone it was really even conceivable was in ST back when you needed a key that wasn't soulbound to get in, which made zoning in to get a corpse summons sorta hard. Players circumvented that by dying right away, looting their key, zoning out, dueling, and leaving the key on a corpse outside before being rezzed back in.

Aside from that one zone, players are able to zone back into every other zone and get their corpse summoned; I seriously can't think of an instance where you risk losing your corpse, so the graveyard doesn't "lessen" the risk at all, it merely saves you some time and a bit of money. This really only helps the casual gamers, since I can't see players in large guilds being unable to get their corpses summoned.

To me, it just seems to make the game a little less inconvenient, which is probably a good move on VI's part given the fact that most people are probably tired of CRs at this late stage in the game. Sure you can say they're "bonding experiences," but after a while, they cease to be. Then they just becoming irritating, or frustrating if people need to leave. Most people know how to CR, could do it in their sleep, and if not, then they almost certainly know how to send a tell to a necro. They could implement graveyards in every zone in the game and it wouldn't "break" anything by allowing "exploits."

I don't care about the graveyards one way or another, I doubt I'll ever be in a position to lose my corpse even without them, but Fyste's argument struck me as highly specious and I just wanted to point out that most of those facts and statements don't have a leg to stand on, considering the graveyards enable players to do nothing that they couldn't have done already.
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:24 PM   #32
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Let me give you an example of where I was glad there was a GY.

Two nights ago in POI, I got a group together to see if we could get to the goos/slimes to get some parchments. We did great, though we were using a Ranger as a tank. We fought our way all the way there...it was pretty tough, and we had hinter pops coming up fast. Once there, we pulled one successfully. When I tried to pull the second, it darted down some other passageway and gathered up about 15 friends. Great pathing!

Well, we all died.

When it was all over, I was EXTREMELY glad that we didn't have to crawl our way back just to do a CR, then crawl all the way back (since we didn't have a porter). We were saying "good thing our bodies pop in the GY." I was happy because I needed to get to bed.

I bet you, if you gave folks the choice, the majority of the server would choose to keep the GYs. Yeah these folks (including me) may be softies, but hey...can't "softies" and "hardies" both enjoy the game?
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:06 PM   #33
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Default Fearplanerescue

I don't suppose that MS Cleric perma-camped in fear was called Fearplanerescue and was a female dark elf?

I saw her once and wondered about the name, considering she was low level at the time but had awesome gear.
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:36 PM   #34
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First off perhaps if you haven't ventured into the pop zones past the exp mobs you might not know how some of the quest/test fights go. The easiest for most to relate to will be the justice trials. In those trials your group/raid is ported to another hitherto unreachable part of the zone set aside just for your little battle. These areas can be mirrored so that more then one raid at a time can be run. Therefore there are places within many of the pop zones that you quite simply cannot corpse retrive from. It is my belief that this is the reason for the graveyards. Not to make game play easier for the casual player, though it does do that, that is merely a side benefit. Love it or hate it as you choice. I am not a great fan personally.
I guess that pretty much covers the reason why. I remember waaaay beck when they were just announcing PoP, they were saying that there would be divisions in the new zones that allowed multiple guilds to "raid" without overlapping and without actually splitting off seperate copies of the entire zone ( ala AO ). Now I see how they did it.

Nice solution, and definately requires something like a Graveyard.

Aside from that, I see no valid reason for them aside from making life easier.

By the way, I'm not hard-core, I'm old-school. Fyste is 57th level, but her birthday is October of 1999... Three years and not even to 60th level, and that's my main.

To the guy that can't see how to lose a corpse... did you play back in the days when Fear and Hate were the HARDEST zones in the game? And zoning in sometimes meant complete wipeout if things didn't go your way? Now assume you have a complete wipeout on zone-in, mobs all over the zone-in area, and you can't get a Necro in there with coffins, never mind a Cleric to res. And when you DO, you find out half the guild was summoned across the zone. There are lots of zones like that, assuming you hit them at the levels you're supposed to. I'm not talking about 60th level guilds walking through Fear, I'm talking 49 - 52nd level with no AA points and good ( not Uber ) gear. Real easy to have a few bad pulls and end up in a REALLY bad situation.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:54 PM   #35
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OMG I soooooo love graveyards. Makes my job alot easier Pullin mobs not bodies
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:25 PM   #36
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Default Maybe it's been said already...

Best thing to happen to EQ, ever.

Sure it takes away from the “dungeon crawl” experience, but hey…these are the planes now.

If you’re quick, skilled, and sometimes have a bit of luck on your side, you can always beat the 15min timer in any zone. Been there, done it, even in most remote locations in PoN, and PoD.

So basically what are we losing? Is it some danger aspects of running blindly into the planes? Maybe…but this is more like DL when Kunark came out really…minus the lengthy CRs when you really can’t afford it.

If you want to bond, lets do it over some good xp…if we die, 15-20min later we are getting xp again, getting the most entertainment for your time/money is what it’s about…lengthy CRs are hardly entertaining.

Personally, I think if your not having a few people flop over (besides the monk) every hour or so…you’re not challenging yourselves…because now, death is affordable and easy to recover from. Push it to the limits!!

I’d say, if you don’t like it, there are plently of places you can spend your time until you change your mind.

For all you old timers who spent hours running on foot with no sow from Freeport to South K, and back, yeah…nothing these days compares to what we did to bank some huge loads of silver, gold, and a few plat. Those were different times, and we walked up hill both ways…life is better now and we don’t have to worry about over population and shortages of fresh water…so live it up! Change is good.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:10 PM   #37
kalrie
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another 2 cp about GY sploiting, Fyste. CotH is disabled in at least one new plane (PoI).

I suspect in PoI it has to do with calling people through a door that you need a person flagged by a particularly nasty dragon fight to open, but I haven't explored enough to be sure. CotH may very well be disabled in other zones as well. Not a magician, cound't tell ya.

(pending sig retyping, I'm lazy)
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Old 11-13-2002, 03:03 AM   #38
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Currently CotH is disabled in 2 zones in PoP

Plane of Nightmare was first then Plane of Innovation
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Old 11-13-2002, 03:49 AM   #39
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Not having a mage personally, have to add what I have heard, that PoJ is also CoTH disabled (otherwise the trials would be a joke).
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Old 11-13-2002, 04:46 PM   #40
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If you’re quick, skilled, and sometimes have a bit of luck on your side, you can always beat the 15min timer in any zone. Been there, done it, even in most remote locations in PoN, and PoD.

This is of course assuming you have (a) top notch computer(s), a stable connection, and can zone however many times you need to, in 15 minutes. I know that it takes me like, 5 minutes to zone. Using a modem, I go linkdead constantly. Personally i see the 15 minute timer as a bad idea...
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