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Old 11-11-2002, 02:59 PM   #1
Martigan
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Default Retro-Graveyards

You think they will ever implement the feature of PoP graveyards (dying...corpse popping to a semi-safe zone-in in 15 minutes) to pre-PoP dungeons?

I can remember those 2AM ToV corpse runs so vividly.../shudder. Would have been a bit nicer to gather the corpses at the zone-in, though it would make things interesting for long fights where you can't get to the corpse within 15 minutes.

Anyway, had to think of something to post...haven't made a post on the new board yet.
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Old 11-11-2002, 03:57 PM   #2
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This was brought up at Fan Faire in the "Zones and New Content" panel. It was stated that they would consider putting "graveyards" into pre-PoP zones if they get positive feedback about the graveyards.

As the guy at the table kept repeating... "It's a definite possibility".

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Old 11-11-2002, 04:02 PM   #3
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Graveyards are lame. That is all.
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Old 11-11-2002, 04:05 PM   #4
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Good lord...

Why don't they just make it so when you die at any level all your stuff is soul-bound and put soul-binders in every zone?

Could they pander to the DaoC / AO crowd just a little more?

/sigh

( I'm sorry... did I say that in my out-loud voice? )
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Old 11-11-2002, 04:20 PM   #5
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AO and DAoC steal EQ's ideas at least as much as EQ steals theirs.

It's a good thing - one game does something really well and over time it gets included in other games too. The result? All games become better for everyone.

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Old 11-11-2002, 05:00 PM   #6
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I think the idea of graveyards is lame, sure it might make those whole 2 am corpse recoveries easier, but it takes away from the whole experience of going into a dangerous area.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:05 PM   #7
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True, cross-polination is a good thing.

Taking ideas and concepts from one game to anoter and making gameplay smoother and easier is a wonderful thing. The whole NewUI thing, for example, is to totally DaoC it's obvious to even a real EQ newbie... but it's PHENOMINAL! It makes the game play easier, it makes the Bazaar possible, and the XML stuff they did with it makes the whole game more personal and just fun to be in.

But PANDERING to a crowd is bad. People coming from a game environment where death is minimal and corpse recovery is guarnteed to take no more than 15 minutes, then yelling and screaming to Verant because they make death HURT here... should just learn to play the game better and NOT DIE.

Where's the risk in a Graveyard zone? I die and I lose some exp... great. I wait 15 minutes in the Graveyard and my corpse pops up and wheeee I'm off exp-grinding again. How long does it take realistically to get that back?

I don't have PoP yet, so I'm assuming corpses that pop up in a Graveyard are non-ressable?

Here's a for-instance... let's assume they ARE ressable. How long do you think it will take Clerics to learn what Enchies learned long ago: Go where people are waiting for you and charge BIG PP for your services. Why do you think there are so many Enchies in Nexus charging 100pp for KEI? And how long will it be before Clerics show up in Graveyards charging 100pp or more to res those corpses? Not too long.

So where does that leave you? You can go anywhere in zone and risk ( at most ) 4% exp.

All your items will apear in 15 minutes. A cleric will most likely be nearby, just make sure you have items or cash on your body that you can loot ( since it will helpfully pop up right next to you ) and pay them.

Almost zero risk for unknown reward... potentially very high reward depending on the zone.

And how long do you think it will take people to figure out: Hey! I just killed Uber_Mob_001 and got Phat_Lewt_010 ! If I die here, my corpse pops up in 15 minutes in a safe spot and I bet I can even get a res! And how long until guilds realize they can bind a cleric there ( or close by ) fight there way in to Boss_Mob_002, kill it, loot, then all die and reappear in the handy graveyard with all the newfound Phat Lewt.

Graveyards are lame.

They reduce risk to insanely low levels.

They create the ability for people to pharm high level areas with no worry about getting out again.

They create a new marketplace for ress-classes ( Clerics, Paladins and Necros ) to hang out and make easy cash.

Sure, they make those 4-hour corpse retrievals a thing of the past... and the days where you lost gear in Hate or Fear because your body was summoned under a God. But really... is it worth it?

Tell me corpses that appear in a Graveyard are non-ressable, and that helps a lot. But it still makes risk in those zones incredibly low, comparably speaking. Would be easier just to make all your gear soul-bound and get it over with.

The risk and pain associated with death in EQ is one of the things that make it an intense and exciting game to play. Remove that risk, and you've got Tribes or something like it. Run in, kill whatever you can before you're killed, grab your gear again, run back and try again. Do you really want people in your group in a planes-level zone that think like that? Do you really want to see guilds that Zerg-rush a zone over and over with a bank of ressers waiting in the Graveyard to send them back? I know I don't.

Pandering to people that just bitch because things are different doesn't help... it changes gameplay. And this is not a direction I'd like to see EQ go. ( Gods know the Vision (tm) has died long ago... but still... Graveyards are lame )
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:09 PM   #8
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I like the graveyard. Sure it removes the risk from exploring the zones, but that's a good thing. Pre-graveyard, when a raid was approaching midnight and there was a wipe, a lot of people would decide that after the corpse recovery they would leave, and the raid would fall apart. Now at least, if you fail, you can just wait for the corpses to pop and get back to it. No more spending 2kpp to buy coffins and have a necro summon everyone out, or have your monks/rogues run around dragging everyone.

I prefer less risk to having raids fall apart cause of long, boring, expensive corpse recoveries.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:16 PM   #9
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you know, before graveyards, I don't think I came across a single person who thought that they could just die to get somewhere and only lose a small part of their exp (less than 1% of their level) people still die on raids, and get rezzed, and die more, and get rezzed, and I really highly doubt people will be volunteering to die again just to leave an area. Why would they do that? all you need is 1 wizard on the raid and he can TL those out who don't have a druid to port.

Also, since this graveyard thing, in pop, I have never paid for a rez. I might have to wait a short while to get one, but in the end some awesome cleric comes along with his/her epic and rezzes me. When I offer money for it, they decline.

there is a big difference between KEI and a cleric rez. a cleric with epic gives a manaless rez, whereas kei costs mana, and time to regen spent mana, etc.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:42 PM   #10
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I agree that the graveyards make things easier. However I hate the pressure I feel when one member of my group dies and I have to worry that thier corpse might pop away from the camp to the graveyard.

I have personally found that corpse retrivals can be bonding experiences. They bring friends closer to go through them together it builds trust in others as well.

Its a nice idea but I think it takes risk out of the game where the point was to be risky. Thus risk versus reward.
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Old 11-11-2002, 07:47 PM   #11
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you know, before graveyards, I don't think I came across a single person who thought that they could just die to get somewhere and only lose a small part of their exp (less than 1% of their level)
Nope... but you will now.

people still die on raids, and get rezzed, and die more, and get rezzed, and I really highly doubt people will be volunteering to die again just to leave an area. Why would they do that? all you need is 1 wizard on the raid and he can TL those out who don't have a druid to port.
Depends what zone you're in. Plane of Air, for example. No ports, no TL, no Gate. You go in one way, you jump off the island to get out again. That's so people don't Band halfway up, then jump to a lower island and group people, then Gate back up again... I don't even think CotH works there. Now if you put a Graveyard in therem things change.

Also, you don't know any zones where people die to get out? That's right because all thier gear would be inside. Ever been in a raid that just ENDS because the last wizard has to camp? I have. Ever been stuck because there aren't enough druids left to port everyone out? I have. This way you can keep going no matter how many porters you have, because when you're done you can always die and get out again.

You don't think people will sacrifice 4% experience for that kind of security? You said it yourself, but not in so many words... people expect to die on raids. Not a biggie.

Also, for Monks this will rock. More than once I've been stuck FD under a mob that summons. I can't fight it, or it kills me. I can't pull it, it summons me. I can't die, no-one will be able to recover my body. Well... that's not an issue anymore, just camp a cleric in the Graveyard before you go in and all is well. Wait till my corpse pops up, res me, then CotH me back to the group.

Want me to go on? There's got to be 4 or 5 more ways to exploit it...

That's not even mentioning that I agree with Evelle on both points: long CR is what DEFINES the Risk in some zones... that's what makes the Uber Loot ( Reward ) worth it. It also helps build unity in a guild, and lets people know you can count on your guild to be there for whatever it takes to get you out again.

Take that out and what's left?

They reduce the Rewards, since the Risk is significantly reduced. And your guild no longer has to be as tighly knit and interdependant. You think this will help people stay on raids longer? I seriously doubt it. One good wipeout and people will think "Geeze, now we have to fight all the way back in... when we're already standing here in this nice safe Graveyard" ... and they will camp while they are ahead.

Changes gameplay dramatically.

Not a good plan.
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Old 11-11-2002, 07:51 PM   #12
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Oh side note... in case you don't think people will camp a cleric in a graveyard and just leave them there...

Midnight Sojourn ( back before Midnight Fury ) had a naked cleric perma-camped in Fear... no gear on him at all, camped at the safe camp. All he had was his Epic.

Guess what he was for?
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:09 PM   #13
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Naked love with a sprinkler?
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:11 PM   #14
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WOOOHOO!

Now how did I miss that?
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:27 PM   #15
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why bring up plane of sky? (yes, it's plane of sky, not plane of air, despite it being called airplane since it was introduced) that is a special case. Noone needs to die to get out, cause they just walk over the edge :P you show me another zone with porting disabled :P
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:05 PM   #16
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why bring up plane of sky?
Because the question is not "What zones are easy to get out of?" ... the question is "Why are Graveyards a bad idea?"

And if there was one in Plane of Sky ( or Air or Boing 747's ... the name is really irrelevant, you know that right? ) it would completely change the way the zone is played.

Now, given that, the problem with PoS is not so much that you can't gate out. It's more that you can't move around. You have to move through the zone in order of the islands. A Graveyard would allow a way for players to move themselves around out of order... and that affects the way a zone is played.

I don't need to show you another zone with porting disabled, I'll just show you other ways to abuse it. Which is really my point and has nothing to do with PoS or it's name. Obviously you want me to do this, so let's do it.

Let's say you're in Umbral Plains, out in the middle area at one of the Dark Assassin buildings. Kind of a pain to get to, unless you have someone bound near a zone you're not going to get new people in your group easily. Well... if there's a Graveyard in zone, you've got someone permanently bound in zone at the GY. Just duel, die with zero exp loss, corpse shows up at GY where we all agree there will probably be a Cleric. You could even shout before you do it, to be sure. get a res, invite your new person, and CotH everyone back to group.

Let's pick Hate, this time you're on the second floor. Wizard zones people up, first floor is pretty empty, wizard brings new people to the Graveyard to wait. Anyone that wants to leave duels, they die, appear at GY 15 minutes later. Everyone gets resses, invite the new people to group and the people leaving to the Wizard's group. New people get CotH up, old people get ported down... you could perma-camp a zone for quite awhile like that.

Let's pick a newbie zone. Let's say Blackburrow. You go in, fight your way all the way down to snake pit / green room. This is back in the day when you WERE a newbie mind you, no Uber Gear, so it's a chore to do this... and newbies seldom have the choice of groups... and pickup groups seldom have druids, since they are an inherently solo class. Also, there are few wizards in that area. So, now you have to camp... and you have two choices: fight your way ALL the way back out, or duel and die in place ( one person has to actually die ) and get resses at the Graveyard, then walk out.

I can go into the other side of the coin as well... the issues it creates for the groups that don't abuse it.

Excellent point made by someone else: Clerics are going to be under serious stress here. Let's say you're in a group and you get a bad pull... semi-wipeout. You now have 15 minutes to res everyone that died, before those bodies *poof* away to the Graveyard. If you get hit again by repops, you might have a serious issue on your hands... especially if your cleric doesn't have a click-stick.

Let's say you're in Fear at North Camp and you have a near-full wipeout... only the Clerics camp. They come back in and they have less than 15 minutes to ress everyone... how much less depends how fast thier computers can camp and reload. Could be REALLY tight, especially if the FD-ers tell the clerics not to camp back in because of wanderers, etc... those corpses could be gone before they even hae the chance to camp back in.

Of course there's always the people that will abuse it. There's always the random #%^)&_))(+ that will pull a train into the Graveyard where he KNOWS people are getting resses... and just wipe out a whole group of clerics and half-dead people with res effects still lingering.

Then the issues of groups not really banding together for raids. I mean really... when you know it's only 15 minutes until your corpse re-pops at the Graveyard... and there's a pretty good chance of a cleric being there to res you... where's your incentive to hang around and help the rest of the raid? Heck, they'll probably just pop up in the Graveyard and get ressed too, so you might as well camp. Right?

Should I go on?

Let's just leave it at this: you think Graveyards r0x0r... I think they cause way more issues than they resolve.

Sometimes you just have to disagree.
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:12 PM   #17
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there is one thing I wish they would do. I wish that they would make it so that the graveyard doesn't summon your corpse 15 minutes after you die. I would love it if I could go to a graveyard, do a /corpse, and then have my corpse get summoned from wherever it is in the zone.

It's annoying when you have to wait 15 minutes for it to pop at the graveyard, and sometimes it's annoying when you do run back to the corpses and have to rush because the corpses could get summoned at any minute.

the reason I made a point to ask about Plane of Sky, is because there is now a plane that came with PoP that is called Plane of Air. so called the old Plane of Sky by the old incorrect name, could cause some confusion.
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:15 PM   #18
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Ahhhh didn't know that about Plane of Air... don't have PoP yet. That's definatly a pain, thanks... didn't mean to cause confusion.

The command you're talking about is a DaoC command, /release.

You die, you have to go back to your gravestone and pray to recoup some of your lost exp & stats. Unless you type /release , then you lose the exp & stats until you can make your way to a healer & buy them back.

EDIT: I didn't play much DaoC, so I'm not sure about this... but I believe you floated around as a ghost until you got ressed, prayed, or typed /release ... And when you do a /release you get all your gear back on your body immediately and off you go again. Alot like what you're talking about, run to Graveyard, type /corpse ... reduces the risk tremendously. Corpse stays where it is for a full res if you choose, or comes directly to you with all gear ready for a res... if you choose. Too easy for my tastes... but I understand

EDIT EDIT: Hmm... looked through EQMaps and they don't show a Plane of Air under PoP zones... have to do a little research on that.
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:47 AM   #19
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Originally posted by Razer Zedge
why bring up plane of sky? (yes, it's plane of sky, not plane of air, despite it being called airplane since it was introduced) that is a special case. Noone needs to die to get out, cause they just walk over the edge :P you show me another zone with porting disabled :P

Veeshans Peak.


could not gate out from there. had to kill dragons to get out, the way it was intended. however, ppl found ways to get out anyway.
Altho it sucked ass and took forever.

(but i got me a nice screenshot of Vendrix bending over and screaming mommy out of it).
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:56 AM   #20
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Default I like em

Graveyards are the answer to what Casual players have been campainging for for years and as a casual player I have to say that I love them. There are plenty of zones in EQ that most people will never completely see. Planes of Power empthasizes that point.

Very few people will ever see the Tower of Solusek Ro or the last few isles in the Plane of Sky.

For some it will be a time thats a killer. For others it's the inability to recover from a wipeout and the disaster that causes.

Graveyards don't make the game easier. What they do is make it so that a disaster is not one that ruins enjoyment of the game. In turn players will compensate by going to harder places, places they'd never dream of without those graveyards.

What Graveyards do is open up more of the content for the other 90% of the players in EQ and that's a good thing.

They won't make a guild that can't kill Vindicator, kill Solusek Ro but they will allow those guilds to at least see him, and perhaps have a try at some of the other gods but they aren't making the game easy because the mobs are still as tough as they always were.

In time I see a new spell arrving. Something similar to Harnessing of the Flesh which binds a persons corpse at the place they die rather then summoning to the Graveyards.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:17 AM   #21
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Fyste, please. You don't have PoP and yet you're ranting about the graveyards based on your personal perceptions of how they work, mixed with personal bias, with absolutely no first hand knowledge whatsoever. Get PoP and then you have a basis for comment.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:25 AM   #22
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For the first week, I didn't even know how the graveyards worked...I just thought some nasty mob came by and wiped a bunch of unsuspecting folks waiting for a group at the zone.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:37 AM   #23
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Martigan, if it was in PoN , chances are thats what happened. PoN graveyard = the suck.
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Old 11-12-2002, 08:44 AM   #24
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Hey Barrymore !

Is that the same Barrymore I used to know? Years back... from almost back to Beta days?

You're right... I don't have PoP.

Tell me that my assessment is wrong. In fact, even better, show me why it's wrong.
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Old 11-12-2002, 09:39 AM   #25
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Let's say you're in Umbral Plains, out in the middle area at one of the Dark Assassin buildings. Kind of a pain to get to, unless you have someone bound near a zone you're not going to get new people in your group easily. Well... if there's a Graveyard in zone, you've got someone permanently bound in zone at the GY. .Just duel, die with zero exp loss, corpse shows up at GY where we all agree there will probably be a Cleric You could even shout before you do it, to be sure. get a res, invite your new person, and CotH everyone back to group
Umm that doesnt work, GY timer is 15 minutes, rez timer on a dueled corpse is 10..
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