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Old 05-15-2004, 05:15 PM   #1
bumbleroot
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Default The beginning of the end

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq to gain intelligence about the growing insurgency, ultimately leading to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker magazine reported Saturday.
the interrogation plan was a highly classified “special access program,” or SAP, that gave advance approval to kill, capture or interrogate so-called high-value targets in the battle against terrorism.
Rumsfeld and Defense Undersecretary for Intelligence Stephen Cambone expanded the scope to bring the interrogation tactics to Abu Ghraib, the article said.
Complicity in the Executive branch!!!!

Folks this is a war crime here. It spells impeachment for Rumsfeld.
Whether or not this will be followed up on I don't know, but basically George W. Bush is FUCKED royally if it is followed up and proven.

He will have two choices if it is shown to be true.
First- deny that he knew about it, thus acknowledging that he was out of the loop on the war.
Second- Acknowledge that he knew it and also be impeached.
Either way, this is a nail in the coffin of George W. Bush. I dare congress to not follow up on this one.

By the way, impeachment of Rumsfeld would still hold him accountable to the law. How do you say The Hague?
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:53 PM   #2
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A little corroboration for ya...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

Hey cons just so you know this makes me sooooo happy.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:56 PM   #3
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and that makes me sad for you
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:12 PM   #4
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I am not happy about this at all. I would prefer that Rummy got caught screwing an intern rather than this. This is bad for all of America all way round.
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:17 PM   #5
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Hey lets have a crawfish boil. Im officially inviting you and bumble, Lurikeen. I'll buy the bugs and the kegs. Just be warned trith and flub will be there!
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Trech
Hey lets have a crawfish boil. Im officially inviting you and bumble, Lurikeen. I'll buy the bugs and the kegs. Just be warned trith and flub will be there!
Well, if Flub will be there I guess I will go.

Just no golf! Kk?
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:22 PM   #7
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Me Flub and Trith and a few others went to play "golf" in New Orleans about a month and ahalf ago. Lemme tell ya... the stories we have from that weekend....

EDIT: I have pics. They are online too. Im willing to point you to the url for a small fee
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Last edited by Trech; 05-15-2004 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:02 PM   #8
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I am not happy about this at all. I would prefer that Rummy got caught screwing an intern rather than this. This is bad for all of America all way round.
Well, to bumbleroot, the entire country could go to the toilet and he wouldn't care, just as long as cons look bad.
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:18 PM   #9
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Well, to bumbleroot, the entire country could go to the toilet and he wouldn't care, just as long as cons look bad.
Thanks for trying to put thoughts and sentiment into my head. Being that you are a conservative bent I am 100% sure that you can understand completely the mind and hearts of those who think and feel differently than you.
I don't want the nation to go down the toilet. I want the truth to be shown. If we wish to win the war on terror, exposing the reasons why nations hate us will help us win. We have half of our country blinded by an evil ideologue that gets whatever he wants regardless of the consequences to America. That is more dangerous to our country than anything else could be. Once we as a nation realize this and overcome it, this war on terror will be easier to win. I am sorry, but George W. Bush by and of himself is an object of hate to much of the world. Heck, he is an object of hate to at least half of America as well. He does not create GOOD WILL towards America. It will be impossible for the spectre of George Bush and his involvement of trying to create the Iraq that he wants to win the war on terror.
I feel with all of my heart that this country is on its way to absolute ruin under George W. Bush. The man has NEVER had success at anything he has done. He has gotten complete free rides by all of the supporters on his side. He gets excuses upon excuses made for him and he continually spews lies upon lies. The sooner and easier we get rid of him, the happier I am.
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:37 PM   #10
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Here we go again touting the end of the Bush admin. This is not concrete, this is the word of one individual. Bumble everytime someone writes a book or comments derogatory information about the Bush admin you post this same thread. All of your doom predictions have seen you falling flat on your face when they don't pan out--yet here you are again predicting doom.

Let me give you a hint, unless this guy has proof that Rumsfeld told someone directly to do this (which I highly doubt) this will be old news in two days. I may be wrong but I am not so ignorant to take one man's word and go running around predicting its "the beginning of the end". You should at least give it three days, see if the story has any merit or backing, then maybe pull this crap.
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:50 PM   #11
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I dont see anything wrong with this. Basically its an order saying "do whats necessary" to get information. i EXPECT governmental intelligence agencies in foreign and war territories to do that already. Now im not for torturing anyone that you dont know is bad, but if they can show these people were up to no good... boo fucking hoo... and to the best of my knowledge... guess what these people were terrorists and murders. The only intelligence mistake made was making this public.
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:51 PM   #12
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Hi my name is Alauradana. I don't know how to understand what I read. Here I will show you an example.

I think this.....
this is the word of one individual.

When I am told this.....
The magazine, which based its article on interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials,
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:53 PM   #13
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Give me a break Bumble, I can post millions of articles from magazines, because they are an article, that means its true?????? GULLIBLE YOU. That is not hardcore and you know it. The reason you are trying to mock me is you have no HARDCORE evidence and you know it. Get a life, what are you going to do if Bush is reelected? Commit suicide??????
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Old 05-15-2004, 09:46 PM   #14
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HARDCORE
So Bumble's sources would be like say... Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, but you're looking for a couple copies of Hustler for corroboration?

*Edit* Typing > Me *Edit*
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Old 05-15-2004, 09:46 PM   #15
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Hi My name is Bumble. I am astounded at how often conservatives forget to read what I write and then try to make up shit.

Like the time when I said
if it is followed up and proven.

And some conservative tried to say this to try to challenge me
you have no HARDCORE evidence

I sometimes think that even when I say something is unproven that conservatives try to tell me that I say things are 100% fact. Sometimes I wait for a conservative to admit they made a mistake but I realize they believe they are borgs and can not admit any mistakes.

Alaura, I know this is not substantiated, but the fact that someone supposedly spoke to some MI (Military intelligence) in an official interview capacity and they said that there were orders to behave in this manner absolutely needs to be looked into. It is war criems we speak of, that is some of the highest order of crime there is.
As I said before, If it is proven then we have an administration that is guilty of war crimes or at least someone in that administration. That will be the absolutely lowest point of any presidency in the US history. There are constitutional guards to protect against this but the checks and balances in the congress have refused to perform their tasks as well.
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Old 05-16-2004, 08:03 AM   #16
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I did not read the article, sorry, but in reading the comments you quoted, I gotta go with Korast on this one.

I would expect that orders like this would be given to the operatives in the filed in order to protect America - this is WAR. And its ugly and its dirty.

My adopted brother-in-law, the marine who did special ops all the time, would often say when we asked what he had been doing - you don't really want to know.

Btw, don't celebrate yet, Bumble. Clinton was the originol Teflon Prez (tm) but Bush could be the next spokesman.......
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Old 05-16-2004, 10:17 AM   #17
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Sorry, Bumble, I can't get from "use unconventional methods" to approving what happened.

And a couple of other points... for the record:

1. Who investigated the behavior in the Iraqi prison? The United States represented by the Bush Administration
2. Who released information on the incidents? The United States, represented by the Bush Administration
2. Who is bringing the perpetrators to justice? The United States represented by the Bush Administration
3. Who will punish the guilty? The United States represented by the Bush Administration

Who do the murderers of Daniel Pearl and Nicolas Berg answer to?
Did the murderers of Daniel Pearl and Nicolas Berg follow the Geneva Convention?
And how about the people that mutiliated and desecrated the bodies of those killed in an ambush?
Do those people answer to a government? ... are they soldiers? do they have any accountability for thier actions?
Do the Iraqis currently ambushing and killing soldiers in Iraq answer to any government?

What happened in the prison was the activity of a few people. We have thousands of men and women in Iraq that are rebuilding schools, roads, governments. Those people are not committing crimes.

When people like you, and every other liberal that posts fanning the flames of this "scandal" you hurt every man and woman in Iraq working for stability. You aid every terrorist that hates the West. And you do it for nothing but political gain.

The Iraqi prison crimes were not a failure of government, they were a failure of individual commands. They are not a failure of the US Military, they were the failure of individuals who had power and abused it. When you and everyone one else who uses the episode to discredit an Administration you dont' like, you discredit the entire country.

An election is a time for legitimate discourse about choices made over the preceding four years. You disagree with the Bush Administration choices. Then address those. Just as we recognize it's not right to blame every Muslim for the acts of terrorists who use the religion as an excuse to behave badly; we ought not be blaming the Administration, the Military, and the men and women serving in it for the actions of a few individuals acting outside the scope of their instructions.

And if you want to cite the approval of the use of unconventional methods of interrogation as permission to break the law, there is a flaw in your logic.

All of us every day give instructions to people to accomplish a task. When we give those instructions they are generally accompanied by guidance as to how, when and under what circumstances those instructions are to be carried out. Implicit in any set of instructions, is the understanding that the law is to be followed. Your assertion that Rumsfield by allowing unconventional methods was giving instructions to break the law (both military and international) is ludicrous.
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Old 05-16-2004, 11:35 AM   #18
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1. Who investigated the behavior in the Iraqi prison? The United States represented by the Bush Administration
The Red Cross investigated us. We had to follow up because it was inescapable.

2. Who released information on the incidents? The United States, represented by the Bush Administration
Well, The Bush administration DID NOT release this information. It was done by a soldier from Pennsylvania.

2. Who is bringing the perpetrators to justice? The United States represented by the Bush Administration
What about the perpetrators that gave the orders. What about the Military Intelligence that was seen in the photos interrogating prisoners?

3. Who will punish the guilty? The United States represented by the Bush Administration
Well, actually when we know who all is guildty we may find out who is punishing them.
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Old 05-16-2004, 01:30 PM   #19
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Bumble the Pentagon has emphatically denied these allegations, that is what they are. These guys say they have talked to MI--they have no names, they remain anonymous. I can say today that I talked to several people, who choose to remain anonymous, and they say you are gay. Does that mean it is substantiated? Do you understand that doesn't mean crap? If this is true, how come these anonymous individuals won't come forward? If they have the real evidence, they need to come forward. That is the problem with your source. Anonymous can be anyone. You cannot tout this as the beginning of the end, you could call it the beginning of the bullshit. That was my point, you just want to believe anything and everything that is said negative about the current administration. It was pointed out in a previous post that you actually are aiding the enemies with your repertoire. You would rather side with terrorists and insurgents than with the Bush Admin.

Fanon, how clueless are you? Here is the definition of hardcore:


hard·core or hard-core

adjective

1. uncompromising: uncompromising and committed

If you are so perverted that you can only see the meaning related to porn, that is your problem, not mine.
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Old 05-16-2004, 02:36 PM   #20
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Alaura, I can not emphasize to you that you haven't a clue about journalism. Anonymous sources are legitimate sources. If you don't believe me, ask Bob Novak- he got Valerie Plame's (CIA Agent) identity from an anonymous source. All journalists realize the need for anonymous sources. Since you aren't in the journalism profession and I am I can tell you that you will not win this battle because you lack credibility and understanding of that issue.
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:02 PM   #21
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Here you go Bumbleroot, drool over this little tidbit of information before it leaves front page news. Of course it will be unfounded just like every other news report trying to link the Bush Administration to the oh so terrible terrible inhumane but hillarious Iraqi prison abuse. I tell you one thing. Our soldiers captured by the Japs would have loved this type of abuse over the torture methods used on them.
Anyway, thought I would link this for ya before you try to make something out if it that's not there.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120072,00.html
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:44 PM   #22
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Here Bumble, here is a news story for you "The Defense Department strongly denied the claims made in the report, which cited unnamed current and former intelligence officials. Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita issued a statement calling the claims “outlandish, conspiratorial, and filled with error and anonymous conjecture.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/


Look, their source didn't go anonymous, she is the spokesperson for the Pentagon. I believe in that report more than I do yours. You are totally gullible if you believe everything you read. Read this--a British newspaper that published pictures of soldiers torturing Iraqis--they claimed they stood by their Anonymous sources--see what happened and also note what I say about everything you read not being true:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3718615.stm
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Alauradana
a British newspaper that published pictures of soldiers torturing Iraqis--they claimed they stood by their Anonymous sources--see what happened and also note what I say about everything you read not being true:
Was that the one where someone had downloaded a porn site and stuck pictures of soldiers in it? That right there is why this abuse scandal has lost credibility with me. You can't believe half of what you read or come across on the internet.
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Old 05-16-2004, 07:42 PM   #24
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The link is right below where I wrote that, it was doctored pictures that looked like abuse--the regiment supposedly involved, does not wear those uniforms in the photos and the vans in the photos are not used in Iraq, that was what alerted the British military that they were fakes.
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Old 05-17-2004, 07:59 AM   #25
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Bumbleroot as to anonymous sources and their uses see:

Jayson Blair at the New York Times and;
Jack Kelly at USA Today


FYI, these two reporters habitually fabricated stories, anonymous sources, and events. They were writing fiction and their editors knew it and ignored it. One of the tools they used was the 'anonymous source'.
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