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Old 05-14-2004, 09:12 AM   #1
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Default Pravda: 'Could Nicholas Berg's execution be fake?'

I understand that Pravda is the state news agency for Russia, but I found this article interesting.



By Pater Havlasa, Pravda

Given the incomprehensible jungle of information, the very first question, when viewing this video of an American civilian, N. Berg's execution, should be whether it is even true?

There appear to be a few problems with it, casting doubt on its authenticity. If these questions aren't answered, one should be wary of the entire matter and be advised not to give in to the patriotic blindness brought on by the emotional charge this video packs.

Consider these inconsistencies with the video before making up your mind:

1) CIA claims it has examined the video and concluded that the hooded figure is Zaqrawi, a high level al-Qaeda operative. However, anyone who has seen the video will attest to the fact that there is no way to identify anyone from it, including the victim. Second, according to an US military report in April '03, Zaqrawi was killed in the bombing of Falluja. CIA does not elaborate whether Zaqrawi has magically sprung back to life or whether the April report was wrong.

2) The US media claimed that Zaqrawi lost a leg in 2001. Now, it says that he did not lose his leg after all. This flip flop seems too coincidental as the purported figure in the video doesn't appear handicapped. The US does not elaborate on which intelligence is wrong.

3) The US media says the audio says that N. Berg was executed in retaliation to the US prison abuse. The reaction of the media was far too quick. It moved straight to using it in making a comparison between prison "humiliation" and a "beastly killing" saying to the shocked public "Look, we only humiliated them in the prison and look at what the animals do to us." It was quick to point out that what the terrorists do to Americans is far worse than what the US is doing to the Iraqis.

There are several problems with this. First, there have been numerous reported deaths in the US prisons caused by severe beatings so comparing "humiliation" to a death is the wrong comparison. Second, the tortures and abuses have gone on for over a year. If al-Qaeda were in the business of avenging prison abuse, it would have already done it and probably on several occasions. Otherwise, it means that al-Qaeda gets their information from CNN or that it just happened to be a coincidence matching Abu Ghraib prison pictures with this video. It's very unlikely that al-Qaeda would and could engage in this synchronized US media play.ć The timing of the video release and the media attempts to whip up an anti-Islamic frenzy suggests a media ruse timed perfectly to deflect the mounting outrage and condemnation of the US military.

4) The voice on the video says that an offer was made to the US military to exchange N. Berg for "some of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib." The US has not commented on this.

5) The Bergs claim their son was detained by the US and are blaming their son's death on the US military but the US says that N. Berg was never detained and instead was offered a free plane ride from Iraq. It does, however, seem that in order to offer a plane ticket, the US military must have had some dealing with N. Berg. In any case, N. Berg disappeared when in US custody.

6) The victim in the video is wearing an orange prison jumpsuit, the kind seen in pictures of Guantanamo inmates. It's hard to believe that al-Qaeda terrorists would be supplying their victims a regulation outfit. None of the recently kidnapped hostages in Iraq (Japanese and Italian) wore any uniform outfits whatsoever.

7) [WARNING: Reader's discretion advised] A human head contains 1.5 gallons of blood yet the freshly decapitated head shown in the video is leaking none. Neck artery would squirt a foot long geyser of blood. There is no evidence of that either. Only one answer lends itself here: the video was doctored. Either a portion was clipped out or the beheading never took place as shown, with the possibility of the victim being already dead.

8) The victim never resisted the killing. Even when on the ground, only one person sufficed to completely subdue N. Berg.

This article aims at proving or alleging nothing. The point is to provoke doubt and hopefully stave off a few readers from becoming an easy emotional target and a news puppet.

Pater Havlasa is the editor of eBigBang.com

Reprinted from Pravda:
http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/...2790_Berg.html
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:28 AM   #2
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7) [WARNING: Reader's discretion advised] A human head contains 1.5 gallons of blood yet the freshly decapitated head shown in the video is leaking none. Neck artery would squirt a foot long geyser of blood. There is no evidence of that either. Only one answer lends itself here: the video was doctored. Either a portion was clipped out or the beheading never took place as shown, with the possibility of the victim being already dead.

8) The victim never resisted the killing. Even when on the ground, only one person sufficed to completely subdue N. Berg.
Noticed that as well, but didn't think of it at the time as well as another thing, but some probably will not want to read it.

Believe I read either someone posting it here or elsewhere, that the time shown on the video was off as well (remember vaguely).
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:38 AM   #3
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It amazes me, though it shouldn't, how many sick twisted people sought out this video to see it.
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:22 AM   #4
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However, anyone who has seen the video will attest to the fact that there is no way to identify anyone from it, including the victim.
Well, they made the ID from his voice, not because of how he looked. But anyway, we have a body. Nick Berg is dead. Whether or not the tape is authentic, he was decapitated and I'm pretty sure we didn't do it.
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:32 AM   #5
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I wish it was fake. I did notice some of the things the Pravda article points out (especially the lack of blood commisserate with such an act of violence), but the body of Nick Berg leaves little to the imagination.

Who knows though- while Nick Berg was certainly murdered and his body decapitated, I suppose it is possible that this video was staged. Unlikely, but possible.
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:49 AM   #6
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Horm, I don't think the writer of the article is suggesting Berg is alive and well. More to the point...

Only one answer lends itself here: the video was doctored. Either a portion was clipped out or the beheading never took place as shown, with the possibility of the victim being already dead.
I read in some other article that the time elapsed between the man reading his speech over Berg to the decapitation is 11 hours. The suggestion, by the writer of the article, is that Berg was already dead when the decapitation happened (which I hope he was!).
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:00 AM   #7
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Well, they made the ID from his voice, not because of how he looked.
Actually the CIA initially said they doubted it was Zaqarwi because the dialect was not the same. Then all of a sudden they said it was him.

The thing that always confused me was why he was wearing a jumpsuit.
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:01 AM   #8
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I'm not taking any black helicopter rides this time around, but there are some legitimate questions and it is not outside the realm of possibility for this to have been staged. Who found the body? How was it positively identified as Berg? Was there an autopsy? Did anyone in the Berg family identify the remains upon their arrival stateside?
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
The suggestion, by the writer of the article, is that Berg was already dead when the decapitation happened (which I hope he was!).
Aye- that's what I meant- not that I thought Berg is alive.
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:15 AM   #10
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I don't believe that Berg is alive either, but I think the questions around identification are reasonable. Results of an autopsy would conclusively determine the exact manner of death and whether or not the decapitation was pre or postmortem.
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Old 05-14-2004, 12:00 PM   #11
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What was their coverage of the Oil For Food scandal?
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Old 05-14-2004, 12:13 PM   #12
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A very informative, yet worrisome article. There are 2 pictures on there from the video, but they are far down. Just a warning.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/...uscivilian.htm


Interesting facts...like how MSNBC changed their news article to show that Berg was not stationed at the prison, etc. They have cached versions of both pages.

Al-Zarqawi lost a leg in Afghanistan, he seems to be doing quite well in that video for a man with a fake leg. Must have had extensive rehabilitation and an excellent prosthesis.

Interesting how a 9-11 accused hijacker had mr. bergs computer info.

Interesting how the family was suing the government BEFORE the beheading for wrongdoing.

Interesting how the video makes a "blip" right before the beheading.


Why the orange prison jumpsuit? Every other hostage has always been in their street clothes. To make Berg be identified with the Abu Graib prisoners? Seems strange. Berg would be considered and infidel.

Why would al-Zarqawi wear a hood?

The questions the continue to bother me though are Berg's connection to Al-Qaeda terrorist. His being held in Iraq on suspicious behavior, hotel personnel who said he ran around Baghdad with no concerns, his parent's suing the government before he was beheaded. The mans hand in the video is white - yes there are white arabs - al-Zarqawi is not one of them
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Old 05-14-2004, 12:14 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by chukzombi
What was their coverage of the Oil For Food scandal?
I don't know... maybe you should go to their site and do a search.
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Old 05-14-2004, 03:14 PM   #14
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Isn't it normal that a body would twitch like a chicken after decapitation? His body did not.
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Old 05-14-2004, 03:23 PM   #15
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The twitching probably hit the cutting room floor. It would have been over the top.
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Old 05-14-2004, 06:28 PM   #16
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I have no idea whether 1% or 100% of what they claim is likely or possible but just keep in mind that some seriously wacky shit gets printed in Pravda alongside serious accurate articles.
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:56 PM   #17
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So the US government is claiming hardfast that they never had him in custody.
They also claim that he refused to talk to his family and refused safe passage out of the country. However, he supposedly was trying to leave the country when he supposedly was picked up by Zarqawi. I just don't get it.
The US claimed they held him because they were concerned about his connection with Moussaoui. But then they claim they didn't have him. Then he shows up in prison fatigues and has his head cut off with no struggle and no blood and no nerves twitching. Then the CIA claims the voice had a different dialect than Zarqawi's. Then they claim they are reasonably sure it is Zarqawi. I am sorry, but there is something not adding up. The story is changing too much.

The family insists something is going on and they want strongly to know the timeline; as if they suspect something. Amongst the first words they say are that he had a connection with Moussaoui. Why would they do that? I seriously think the family feels something isn't adding up.
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Old 05-14-2004, 08:50 PM   #18
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So, what exactly are you suggesting, Bumble? That Berg wasn't murdered by extremists?

I apparently aren't as well informed as you, but I never saw anything about Berg behind detained by the US. I DID, however, read that he was picked up by Iraqi security and was visited by the CIA multiple times during his stay. And it is possible they were overzealous in wanting to implicate Zarqawi, but I'm not ready to believe there is some huge conspiracy surrounding this guy's death.

PS - I guess I haven't witnessed enough decapitations, but I really don't know what's considered "normal" for the human body to do once its head is removed
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:12 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
The thing that always confused me was why he was
wearing a jumpsuit.
I looked into that because it could be a valid point. I've stared at the pics
and watched the begining of the video over and over where he was sitting in that chair.

And to be honest it looks like some kind of a silk outfit. It shines from certain
angles that can only be seen in certain photo's, yet barely. Only in
the video can you notice there is a sheen to the outfit. I remember noticing
the sheen the first time I saw parts of it on TV thinking, Silk death robe
like the japanese used during WW2. Silk has a unique shine to the material.

The jumpsuit you may be thinking of are the cotten type used by many
local jails and prisons. Those types don't have a glimmer or sheen on the
material. But then, the outfit could also be over-starched and over-ironed.
But I doubt the material would be as flexable as it looks to be.



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Old 05-14-2004, 09:13 PM   #20
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Nervous system (I think)

Various animals I've run into, deer, jackrabbits, rattlesnakes, wild pigs all had a twitch when shortly killed. Each having a different duration, and I would assume humans would do the same.

Dropped a 30lb block on the head of a rattlesnake (on concrete) from about 7ft high (height plus a thing I was standing on) as the cat had it cornered. I would think it died almost instantly, removed the block (with a shovel), knocked its head off with the shovel (just to be safe) the snake was dead but still twitched wildly.

Deer, hunting...don't want to get into that
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:16 PM   #21
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When I was a boy I used to go with my father to help him slaughter a pig for meat every year at my uncle's(no it wasn't my idea and yes I think it fucked me up in a way)...at any rate it took 10 minutes with a hacksaw to get the thing's head off.

When I saw the video the first thing that went through my mind was "what the hell are they going to do with that little knife?" Looked like he was cutting through a sirloin steak rather than bone, muscle, and sinew. Must have been a hella sharp knife.

For the record I do think it was real, but who knows. Just the way the guy's jaw went slack at a certain point gave me a kind of chill I have only felt once before, when I watched a drunk guy get splattered all over the road here on campus a couple years ago by a car doing 60.

Also that jumpsuit looked more like some sort of ceremonial outfit more than prison gear to me.
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:20 PM   #22
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Just the way the guy's jaw went slack at a certain point gave me a kind of chill I have only felt once before,
That's something I noticed, wouldn't it still be slack when they displayed the head to the camera? Muscles are rather relaxed when one is asleep, knocked out, dead. Unless they set it down, or pushed it back up, I'm not going to look again...
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:37 PM   #23
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So, what exactly are you suggesting, Bumble? That Berg wasn't murdered by extremists?
http://aztlan.net/fake_video.htm

I am suggesting that he was already dead when he was decapitated. They show his body go to the floor and it is a complete thud. No motion. When they first cut his neck if I remember they panned away from his head then they pan back to show the guy working his neck. But there is no blood at all. That doesn't make sense.
The other thing that makes no sense to me is that this body was found so easily on the side of the road. I would like to see them have an autopsy on his body. I don't think he died from decapitation.
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Araya LeBon
Also that jumpsuit looked more like some sort of ceremonial outfit more than prison gear to me.
Considering how docile Berg is in the video it makes me wonder if that maybe Berg had consented to be some sort of sacrafice. His hands and legs aren't tied up when he lists off his family members. In fact, he smiles at times. Later, when he is sat infront of the man alleged to be Zarqawi (and he is boudn then), there is a point where his shoulders completely drop as if he is deeply relaxed. It is almost as if he knows what's going to happen to him and he has accepted it. Then of course, he doesn't resist the knife to his throat in the slightest... not a single tuck of the chin to block the blade, or a roll of the head. The man decapitating him only has to subdue him with a single knee.

This entire incident is very odd.
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:48 PM   #25
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As we speak Fox is grooming bumble for the spinoff of the X files.
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