Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2004, 08:36 PM   #1
Fyrsong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 121
Default Who's fault is it?

After hearing on the news tonight, and seeing video on CNN about the American who was beheaded in respond to the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, I'd like to pose this question.

Who is at fault?

The soldiers?
Military Brass?
The news media?
Other

I have a few thoughts, and I'm posting it here, just because!

a) The soldiers are all grown up men and women, living in a society that believes in right and wrong, and should all know that doing harm to the enemy while in custody must be somewhere on the wrong side of the line.

b) Military Brass. They seem to be being made the scapegoat for "not providing training on how to treat prisoners". I call bullshit on this one. I don't see where there is a need to hold classes on "If you have a prisoner, should they be stripped so we can pose our soldiers with them in degrading poses?"

c) The news media. I have a hard time accepting that the public needs to know "exactly" what crimes have been committed during such times. Tell me that soldiers are being examined for misconduct in the treatment of prisoners, and thats all I need to know. I don't see a need to have countless pictures getting hours and hours of air time, web time, radio time etc. Are we so naive to believe that some sort of retaliation wouldn't happen?


My heart goes out to this poor man, his family and the country for having to see such a brutal act, but I for one put the blame on our soldiers for being such complete asshats in their treatment of prisoners, and the military and media for making this such an insanely widespread so-called newsworthy story. Shame on all of you.

The soapbox is yours.

Ps: I don't buy any arguments that "war is hell" and that it makes you do things you wouldn't normally do. Not for one second.
__________________
Fyrsong BloodyEars
Affliction Maestro
Fyrsong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2004, 08:41 PM   #2
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
The obvious answer is that the terrorists who cut off his head are at fault. Did they truly react to the abuses of Iraqi prisoners? They said so, but who knows.

BTW, this is all being debated in the Steam Vent. This posting likely will find its way there.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2004, 08:42 PM   #3
Inara
Thats Mistress to you
 
Inara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 106
Nice points, but can this be moved to the "America under Attack" board?
__________________
Mistress Inara
65 Enchantress
~Order of Divine Winds~
Inara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2004, 11:10 PM   #4
Ulujain
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: La La Land
Posts: 1,930
Originally Posted by Inara
Nice points, but can this be moved to the "America under Attack" board?
What America Under Attack board?

For clarification, see Lurikeen's post, the one he made before you, which you should've read.

Cheers
__________________
S.I.G.N.A.T.U.R.E.
Ulujain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 01:43 AM   #5
Telly
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 12
How can you compare someone posing with naked prisoners to cutting off someones head and video taping it for their family to see?
Telly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 02:16 AM   #6
Deadscale
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,140
Not defending the beheading...

An interviewed abused prisoner said he would have rather taken a bullet in the forehead than to be sexually humiliated/pranced around naked/etc, then having their families and other Muslim people see it plastered all over the media. Their culture is very conservative when it comes to the mentioned.

The beheaded victim, hostages, Iraq prisoners, either make me sick just seeing it on the front page. Fucking media.
__________________
I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party.
Deadscale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 04:34 AM   #7
Inara
Thats Mistress to you
 
Inara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by Ulujain
For clarification, see Lurikeen's post, the one he made before you, which you should've read.
My Mistake wrong boards, names have changed on boards I dont read...

Notice the time difference between mine and Lurikeen's post? His wasn't up when I was writing my post. Chill out
__________________
Mistress Inara
65 Enchantress
~Order of Divine Winds~
Inara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 08:27 AM   #8
Zephaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Posts: 68
So you think Al-Qaeda would have not cut his head off if we'd not abused prisoners?

Maybe you remember a reporter named Daniel Pearl?
__________________
Zephaus Rootwine
The Appointed
65 StormWarden of Tunare
Check me out here or here.
Zephaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 09:10 AM   #9
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Zephaus
So you think Al-Qaeda would have not cut his head off if we'd not abused prisoners?

Maybe you remember a reporter named Daniel Pearl?
I thought Perl was killed by a radical Pakistani group?
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 09:20 AM   #10
Zephaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by Lurikeen
I thought Perl was killed by a radical Pakistani group?
You are correct. I'm not convinced that there is a great deal of difference between Pakistani Islamic Extremists and Al-Qaeda, given the fact that they intermingle with each other. They demanded the release of Pakistanis being held in Gitmo. See this article.

The point being, I don't think this guy would have made out any better even if we'd been running the prisons flawlessly. I feel incredible sympathy for his family and sorrow at his death. But I seriously doubt the reason he was killed was because Iraqi prisoners were being tortured (Al-Qaeda isn't exactly pro-Baathist). They were trying to demoralize the American public even more. The problem is, Americans are generally programmed to respond to violence with more violence. So Al-Qaeda has done nothing but shift focus back to them. I think they have a serious mis-perception problem, and I fear they will try a similar pre-election tactic here in the U.S. as they did in Spain. The result would be a landslide victory for Bush.
__________________
Zephaus Rootwine
The Appointed
65 StormWarden of Tunare
Check me out here or here.
Zephaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 09:26 AM   #11
dirtyboy
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 9
Of course it is our soldiers fault. Everything is our fault like when the 4 americans got attacked, murdered, lit on fire, dragged through the streets then hung on the street corner posts, it was our fault.
If you think for one moment they cut off his head strictly over the prison abuse, you are an idiot.
They cut of his head to shock and terrify us with something so horrific that it would scare us and undermine the confience and will of the US military and US citizens.
It's a tactic of terror that has been used for centuries, to behead your enemy and lift it high into the air to show your foes what will happen to them, the chechyn(sp?) rebels that are fighting the russians have been beheading russian soldiers, filming it, and sending it to news crews.

but anyway, those iraqi fucks that beheaded the guy are to blame, just as some of our soldiers are to blame for the abuse of POW's.
Place the blame where it belongs

Dirtymofo
dirtyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2004, 10:02 AM   #12
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by dirtyboy
They cut of his head to shock and terrify us with something so horrific that it would scare us and undermine the confience and will of the US military and US citizens.
Islamic extremists have practiced beheading of victims for years and all over the world (just look at the Phillipenes). This isn't anything new, but it is very horrible.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 09:18 AM   #13
Vespay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 330
Their culture is very conservative when it comes to the mentioned.
Until the Iraqi/Afganistan followers of whoever decide to rape the wife of soandso and then kill the husband if he objects to anything ... sickening.

What the US troops have done to our prisoners was wrong, very. The Iraqi's yet again proved that their the scum of the universe by retaliating with a broadcasted beheading. At least we didn't kill the sons of bitches, but either way it was wrong.
__________________
Vespay Twilightkicker
I only troll the boards every other night.
Vespay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 09:23 AM   #14
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Vespay
At least we didn't kill the sons of bitches, but either way it was wrong.

Umm... according the the Red Cross A 28-year-old detainee, married with two children, was beaten to death by US prison guards. The detainee was likely innocent of wrong doing, but we can never know since the detainee didn't get a trial.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 09:39 AM   #15
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Who is at fault
The fuckbag animal who put the knife to Berg's neck and applied pressure. No one else is at fault.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 10:46 AM   #16
Evelle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 234
I think they would have beheaded him with or without the excuse of the prisoner torture. If that hadn't come out or hadn't happened at all they likely would have just claimed it was in protest of the war in general. These are terrorists working to seed and fuel terror in the US they aren't going to be stopped from that path with or without a reason.

Wrong is wrong torturing people for your own sick amusement is wrong and killing people is wrong. I think that a willingness to torture someone like those people were tortured would lead to killing them if the opportunity presented itself. No side has the moral high ground right now that's for sure.
__________________
Evelle
Dark Priestess
Evelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 10:49 AM   #17
Evelle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 234
I agree with Trith the person that killed him is at fault and those that stood by and watched, in my perspective, are also at fault.
__________________
Evelle
Dark Priestess
Evelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 10:57 AM   #18
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,895
Originally Posted by Trith
The fuckbag animal who put the knife to Berg's neck and applied pressure. No one else is at fault.
/agree with sentence one.

Sentence two is terribly shortsighted (unsurprisingly so of course ). Much like 9/11 was the fault of the douchebags who hijacked the planes, there is more blame then just that.
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | Ăs÷p | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | Ă÷l´
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 11:13 AM   #19
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
The beheaded victim, hostages, Iraq prisoners, either make me sick just seeing it on the front page. Fucking media.
I'm sorry, but war is hell. Do you expect the media to not report about a war? That is their job. They don't make the news up, they just report it.

As far as who is at fault for this? I am not sure if you are speaking of the beheading or the prison photos or the combination of the two.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 11:29 AM   #20
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
As far as who is at fault for this? I am not sure if you are speaking of the beheading or the prison photos or the combination of the two.
Prison photos had zero to do with this. This war started 10 years ago with UBL planning the 9/11 attacks. Berg would have died regardless. These men must be hunted down and killed at all costs.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 11:33 AM   #21
crimsonedge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 767
Originally Posted by bumbleroot
They don't make the news up, they just report it.

Not entirely true:


Doubts are growing over the authenticity of photographs that allegedly show British troops mistreating an Iraqi prisoner.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/03/iraq.photos/


Jack Kelley and Jayson Blair also come to mind.

Not everything you read is true and a lot is not accurately reported or researched thoroughly before being printed.

edited to finish research into the right jack kelley not jack kelly (see!)
crimsonedge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 06:51 PM   #22
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
Doubts are growing over the authenticity of photographs that allegedly show British troops mistreating an Iraqi prisoner.
The British press did not make those photos up. They only received them and used them. They did not make it up, only reported it. If they are untrue, someone else gave them false information.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 07:27 PM   #23
Deadscale
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,140
I'm sorry, but war is hell. Do you expect the media to not report about a war? That is their job. They don't make the news up, they just report it.
I agree it is their job, but considering in the shit we are in, it doesn't help us out at all. Just so that they can have their name plastered with an article or photos reporting on it. They could have waited a few months or till after the transfer of power while trying the prisoner abusers in background. Not possible today though, no one can keep their mouth shut on either side.

I guess I'm just really troubled with some reporters/photographers.

I took class with an aspiring journalist in the spring. I was reading an article in the university newspaper about a 19yr old from the city that was KIA in Iraq, early April. The journalist came in, took a seat in front of me just to talk and I bring up the story about the soldier killed in Iraq. Normally we would discuss current events, but this is the first time I bring up a killed soldier in Iraq (mainly because he was from the same city we are at). I can't remember what he said exactly, but he basically said, "Why should I care, they aren't fighting for us, why should I support/respect them?" I was too in shock or I would have threw one at him.

Not dealing with war, but the paparazzi. Believe it was at The Punisher premire, Rebecca Romijn had just divorced John Stamos, and she was very antsy about taking photos or questions because she was still rather depressed about it all. One reporter says something to the sort as she avoided photographs and all that stuff, "No wonder he left you". I mean dick!
__________________
I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party.
Deadscale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 07:33 PM   #24
Deadscale
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,140
Why is it ok to show photos of the abused Iraqis when they can't show blurred photos of Berg being beheaded and so on? Just like they went all out parading the abuse photos enraging Iraq, why not do the same with Berg. Report/show it to the extent if you going to do it, don't pussy foot around.

Ever see a movie, The Three Amigos? The scene in which the lady is trying to write Martin, Chase, Short? That's how I see the media
__________________
I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party.
Deadscale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2004, 07:37 PM   #25
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Deadscale, I hope you can appreciate the fact that children watch the news programs with their parents. Blurred photos of naked Iraqis is not even in the same ball park of watching, or viewing, blurred photos of a man being decapitated.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." ŚMonty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:06 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.