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Old 05-14-2004, 08:46 PM   #201
Théodwyn
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You are completely right in that the "history of our race" does show the power of community. It also reveals the power of dehumanizing individuals on the basis of what community they belong to. In fact, you bring up the NAZIs and ignore the fact that the attrocities commited against the community of Jews occured precisely because someone convinced others that "they" as a whole were not human... that "they" were animals.

Luri,

This is my point.

Look, you're an intelligent person. And a thoughtful one.

But it's a grave assumption to assume that everyone else is. The meek may inherit the earth, but in this day and age, the meek follow the strong. Because they need something to believe in, and a person or a group or an ideal give them that something.

The Nazis, the Bolsheviks, hell how about Inquisition-era Roman Catholics (and I *am* Roman Catholic).

I'm sure you're aware of the saying of "chop off the head of the snake"?

And what if you can't? You wind up maiming the hell out of the whole snake in an effort to chop off it's head. If you wait too long to try to surgicially remove its head, you may get bitten and poisoned.

Luri, I did not mean to sound condescending at the close of my earlier post. Moreover I can see how you could take it that way, and I apologize.

And I promise you, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. What I get from you is your mind at work trying to find the most enlightened solution to the problem with the least amount of inhuman acts committed along the way. Believe me, I understand that and I bear nothing but respect for that.

But I don't think it's practical or feasible to look at it that way. We've already gone too far. You've heard of the saying "Never start a fight, but always finish it?" We can argue about who started it. We can debate or just share knowledge about what the first blow of this conflict was. Whether it was the creation of the state of Israel, or the Crusades, or the first WTC bombing, or us invading Iraq, or whatever.

But we're already in the fight. Either we finish it or we back out and make amends. Or we let it drag on and try to sweep it under the carpet. It's too late to turn back now. More innocents will die meanwhile. Ours and theirs.

Unless we make them stop.

And I honestly don't think backing out will make them stop. Culturally, they'll scoff at it. And yes, that set of community values lives in the minds and hearts of all those individuals.

They've dehumanized us. We're the "infidels".

I don't like war. Hell, I don't even like shouting matches. I'm not even overly fond of George W. Bush. For the record, I don't even like liberal *or* conservative extremes -- they sound the same to me, just with different paint. But I'm an American. I and my nation are at war with those terrorists. The avalanche has begun, it's too late for the pebbles to protest.

I wish I could sit you down with some people who have enlightened me the most as to the fervor that is going on with those people. American Muslims. They understand why we cannot back down now. They understand the power of belief in their faith. They understand that these terrorists have perverted Islam; and they understand that they will not stop until slain.

I'm sorry Luri, but I personally cannot advocate the velvet glove in this situation. I don't want to end up like Roy Horn.

Unless someone comes up with a better way, we're going to have innocent blood on our hands in our search for the true culprits. Do you have a better way? Vote Bush out of office? The time for that is coming. In the meanwhile, if we relax our vigilance or our stance on this snake we're wrestling with for even a second, the head of that snake will continue to bite.

Our citizens, our soldiers, our brothers and sisters and sons and daughters, our countrymen are dying meanwhile. I'd rather they didn't. I want them to live long enough to come home.

And if that means stepping up our military activities, striking harder and taking a tougher stance, even if it means innocent blood (kept to a minimum, it goes without saying), then so be it. We can't relent. They sure won't.

We have a means and a way of chopping our own snake's head off. We live in the USA. We can vote. We have a say. But for us to enjoy the fruits of democracy, the body must survive. And until we replace the head of our snake, we'd best follow what the current head is directing.

This conflict in the Middle East is the wrong stage for "Us versus Our Government". It's the stage for "The United States of America versus Terrorism".

Did we make a mistake in attacking Iraq? I honestly don't know. Maybe we did. But to learn from that mistake (if indeed it is one), we first need to survive it. Nick Berg's life makes for poor penance. And his won't be the last. Not for us. And not for them.

What do you want to see happen here? Really, I'd like to know. If it were up to you, how would we handle this? I know what I want, and I know how those wants are prioritized. What are yours?
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Old 05-14-2004, 09:22 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Theodwyn
But it's a grave assumption to assume that everyone else is. The meek may inherit the earth, but in this day and age, the meek follow the strong. Because they need something to believe in, and a person or a group or an ideal give them that something.
Everyone else is intelligent, some of us just have more hops and barley getting in the way with our thinking processes, or other substances and even beliefs.

No, there is no grave assumption being made. Our forces are fighting an enemy that follows a set of rules. That entails they are intelligent and reason. We must not forget that they are fundamentalists. As fundamentalists they live and die by their rules.

It is too late to rationalize with the al Qaedas of the world, but we shouldn't grossly generalize that all Muslim fundamentalists can't be reasoned with. Furthermore, we must not ever forget that even Osama bin Laden is a human person, no matter how evil. When we start down the path of dehumanization we repeat the same mistake made by others like the NAZIs.

What I get from you is your mind at work trying to find the most enlightened solution to the problem with the least amount of inhuman acts committed along the way.
Absolutely not. The solution can't be the "most enlightened" and I am not even pretending to have that sort of answer. My point is that WE can't forget that the cold blooded killers of Nick Berg are human beings and as such must be treated by us justly. It doesn't matter how unjust they treat us, we can't forget who we are or we become just like them. It does no good for us to return evil in kind. NO GOOD AT ALL. If we are the servants of justice, then we must ensure justice is being met out humanely. Otherwise, we dehumanize ourselves... we become the same sort of cold blooded killers.

But we're already in the fight. Either we finish it or we back out and make amends. Or we let it drag on and try to sweep it under the carpet. It's too late to turn back now. More innocents will die meanwhile. Ours and theirs.

Unless we make them stop.
We are not going to make "them" stop, Theo. For every one of "them" killed another rises up. Killing them is not the solution... we are simply populating their heaven of martyrs for them.

Yes, we are there, no thanks to the choice of George Bush. Yes, he bears responsibility for the mire we find ourselves in. Because of his choice for war more innocents will continue to die and likely for years after our troops are long gone. Such a noble war, eh?

You really think we can make them stop? No, we are going to have to learn how to defend our borders and towns against terrorists. Militarily seeking terrorists in other countries is simply cutting heads of a Hydra. We will be stretched to thin to be effective.

What do you want to see happen here? Really, I'd like to know. If it were up to you, how would we handle this? I know what I want, and I know how those wants are prioritized. What are yours?
First of all I wouldn't have persued a war of choice. Invading Iraq was a huge mistake. Not only did we liberate the good people of Iraq, but we liberated the evil people of Iraq, too. Now we are paying the price.

Secondly, I would do an about face and get the international community involved no matter what it takes. We need an international military force in Iraq, otherwise we are going to be defeated. The US just doesn't have the resources to spend 50 billion a year on the military effort alone.

Once we have an international force in Iraq, we rotate our people out of Iraq and return full control of the country to the people. If civil war errupts, so be it. Let the Iraqi people fight for their own liberty.

I haven't responded to several of your points and if there was one (or two) that I missed you would have liked me to address just bring it up and I will try to tackle it.

Good stuff, Theo.
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:09 PM   #203
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I am not trying to belittle what happened to Nick Berg, but this man kinda asked for what he got. He was NOT working for the government, the army, airforce, marines, or navy. He was not working for KBR or Halliburton he was just here living off of the economy in Iraq. He was given the oppurtunity to have a free plane ticket home. He refused and continued to live here until he was caught. I feel bad for the guy he in no way deserved what happened to him. He did not make the right decsion. Honestly I do not kno if he was armed, but even if he was one man against the rest of Iraq????

The people of the middle east as a whole have been fighting for thousands of years. That is what they know. There is no reasoning with somone who has known nothing but war their whole life. Killing to them is negotiating. The clerics are fanatical to say the least. The clerics know the rules and they hide behind them. They know we cannot attack a moque unless we are fired upon first. So they hide inside the mosques , store supplies there, and on occasion engage us from inside mosques. That is also added to the fact that everyone wears civillian clothes.

Picture this you are driving down a road in Baghdad trying to move from one base to the other. You are watching the rooftops for RPG's, Snipers, small arms, and you're watching the side of the road for IED's. Everyone is wearing civillian clothes and carrying AK-47's (every household in Iraq is allowed one wepon for self defense). So here you have say a couple hundred people on the side of the road as you pass by ona convoy and over half of them are armed. Wethere they are armed for combat or self-defense you do not know. That is what is it like each day on convoys. You see thousands of Iraqis a day and almost half of them are armed.

Now you come walk out into the middle of Iraq and negotiate witht that Lurikeen. The people that will talk to us are damn afraid, because if they do they will probably get shot.
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:08 PM   #204
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We are not going to make "them" stop, Theo. For every one of "them" killed another rises up. Killing them is not the solution... we are simply populating their heaven of martyrs for them.
Honestly, although I knew this, I don't have an answer to it. I hate to say "exterminate them", but it's the only one I can think of. It's like rooting out cancer. As you kill the cancer, you often wind up killing the patient too. If the cancer doesn't kill you, the intense chemo will.

Kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't, isn't it?



Especially in light of this:

The people of the middle east as a whole have been fighting for thousands of years. That is what they know. There is no reasoning with somone who has known nothing but war their whole life. Killing to them is negotiating. The clerics are fanatical to say the least. The clerics know the rules and they hide behind them. They know we cannot attack a moque unless we are fired upon first. So they hide inside the mosques , store supplies there, and on occasion engage us from inside mosques. That is also added to the fact that everyone wears civillian clothes.


Obviously, I've not thought it through to an answer that I feel comfortable with. It's never an easy thing.



But I can share with you a story.

Once (more than once actually), when I was younger, I was in an altercation. I was kind of prone to them at the time. The other guy had a couple of friends with them. And I was alone. It came to blows, and I had to fight them all. I wouldn't say I won the fight. But I gave as good as I got.

Now, the altercation was between me and one of the other guys. The other two were just backing their friend. They didn't have any real beef with me. I didn't have any real beef with them.

We made our amends later on, myself and the two other guys.

But it didn't change the fact that in the moment of conflict, we fought. We visited violence upon each other.

When the fight was over, we made peace. But not before.

And of course I do not forget the the only reason it happened so cleanly was because I wasn't stabbed in the back or something. And I knew at least one of the other guys was packing.

Rules of engagement indeed.

The terrorists, and those who harbour them, whether they truly support their fanaticism or not, aren't playing by the same rules as us.

What then?
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Old 05-15-2004, 03:21 AM   #205
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these pricks who did this are cowards.
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Old 05-15-2004, 03:37 AM   #206
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You're right Luri, I am frothing at the mouth. Anytime I see worthless 'intellectuals' try to reason out shit like that, it pisses me off. Oh, btw, before you think I am putting down intelligent people, I was a National Merit Scholar , so don't think for a minute I don't know the difference between intelligent and 'wanna be intellectuals'.

You make post after post about how they fight by rules, and are 'reasonable'. By your thinking, if I were to come to your house, saw off the head of your children in front of you, just to make a point, it would be ok to reason with me? After all, I just wanted you to become 7' tall and grow beans out your ass, not much to ask. Since you didn't immediately comply, I had to follow my rules, which state that anyone who isn't 7'tall and grows beans out their ass because I tell them to must be killed. I, of course, don't have to follow those rules, just make them.

You go on and on and on and on about this 'war of choice'. I don't remember Bush choosing to fly any planes into the WTC. Anyone who still argues the semantics of whether Iraq is part of the war on terror is just not seeing the big picture at all. Small minded, close minded. I can read the writing the on the wall, you however, are still debating on whether or not its arial script or arial narrow, as the wall falls.

I notice you never answered if you had ever seen/felt death as I described. Not all of my questions are 'rhetorical' ya know.

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Old 05-15-2004, 04:52 AM   #207
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Quote from Theodwyn:The terrorists, and those who harbour them, whether they truly support their fanaticism or not, aren't playing by the same rules as us.
What then?

Everyone soldier in Iraq is thinking the same thing. How do we combat a country full of fighters in civillian clothes and damn near everyone carries a weapon. The Rules of Enganement in Iraq state.

1.On order, enemy military or paramilitary forces are declared hostile and may be attacked subject to the following instructions:

A: Positive Identification (PID) is required prior to engagement. PID is resonable certainty that the proposed target is a legitimate military target. If no PID, contact your next higher commander for decision.

B: Do not engage anyone who has surrendered or is out of battle due to sickess or wounds

C: Do not target or strike any of the following except in self-defenseto protect your unit, friendly forces, and designated persons or property under your control:

. Civillians

. Hospitals, mosques, churches, shrines, schools, museums, naional monuments, and any other historical and cultural sites.

D: Do not fire into civillian populated areas or buildings unless the enemy is using them for military purposes or if necessary for your self-defense. Minimize collateral damage.

E: Do not target enemy infrastructure (public works, comercial communication facilities, dams), Lines of communication (roads, highways, tunnels, bridges, railways) and economic objects (commercialstorage facilities, pipelines) unless necessary for self-defense or if ordere by your commander. If you must fire on these objects to engage a hostile force disable and disrupt but aviod destruction of these objects, if possible.


The Iraqi's know these rules and they use them against us. They will use people as human shields. They will fire upon covoys then run into a mosque and not fire again knowing we cannot come in after them. They will have demonstrations and fire from inside the crowd knowing will will not open fire with 99% of the people being unarmed. This is the prolem in Iraq it is ard to play by the rules when your enemy does not.

Right now there is a 150,000 dollar reward to any iraqi that kidnaps ANY female american soldier. Also there is a 50,000 dollar reward for ANY male soldier captured alive.

Now let's compare the U.S. says we can give you freedom and rights if you help us find the bad guys. The bad guys say hey we will give you a small fortune for the capture of any U.S. soldier. The odds are not in our favor.

Quote from sinikbik: these pricks who did this are cowards.

To me and you sin yes they are cowards, but to them and the rest of their people they are holy warriors doing gods work. That is a fucked up veiw if you ask me, but try telling that to half of Iraq and making them believe it. The clerics only fuel the fire. So they are preached to that it is not only ok, but it is a good thing to kill americans. Allah commands it we must obey. That is their religion and they follow it.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:12 AM   #208
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Vulpes, the thing about these 'rules' is the deadlock between those who look at this conflict through a uniformity determined by their own Western standards and organisation. Those rules, and on the other hand the 'rules' of a freeform collection of proud opponents who flatly refuse to refer their situational rationale to foreign concepts like bureaucratic red tape because those are infidel notions. They just aint buying our pork.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:13 AM   #209
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I don't know what to say to this mess, except that I have begun to feel the undercurrent sentiment building that this will ultimately have to end like WW2. That we are going to allow them to keep screwing us over, until they go "too far" -I am scared to think what that will be- and then we will break out the nukes and end it once and for all. ( Finally saying to hell with civility, this has to end). What do you guys think?
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:51 AM   #210
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Cleric or not, the incitement to kill westerners has to be addressed same old way as terrorist acts. This kinda crap is supposed to con KoS: "El Sadr_01 scowls at you ready to attack, looks like you could easily win this fight."

So what if the coalition is in Iraqi lands, that's even better, a couple of accurate shots and the more dicks that wanna jump in front of fire coz of dead clerics the merrier. There's no inexplicable 'incident' in this measure it is decisive and that is what matters.

If the opposition want to run this war they shoulda won against the Greeks 2500 years ago first, before this got too outta hand.

Yeh who's running this show, us or them sheesh.

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Old 05-15-2004, 06:04 AM   #211
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The answer is obvious. If the people are the enemy, you fight the people.
Why is this so hard to grasp?

If you are not willing to fight the enemy, then you should give it up.

Yes I am sure that there are 'innocents' in the public. I am equally sure that
we are unable to distinguish them.
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:07 AM   #212
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Vulpes,

How fortunate for us all, that you feel empowered to make the determination
of who is a 'real' intellectual, and who is not. We should all be gratefull
that you attend to us.
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:08 AM   #213
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Everclear,

Since you asked....

I think it is better to end it on OUR terms, than have it imposed upon us
with someone elses terms.
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Old 05-15-2004, 10:48 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Vulpes
You're right Luri, I am frothing at the mouth. Anytime I see worthless 'intellectuals' try to reason out shit like that, it pisses me off. Oh, btw, before you think I am putting down intelligent people, I was a National Merit Scholar , so don't think for a minute I don't know the difference between intelligent and 'wanna be intellectuals'.
Yes, I should have guessed by the tenor of your postings that you have a keen discerning mind, one which puts you into a position of being able to weed out the "wanna be intellectuals" from the real McCoy.

You make post after post about how they fight by rules, and are 'reasonable'. By your thinking, if I were to come to your house, saw off the head of your children in front of you, just to make a point, it would be ok to reason with me? After all, I just wanted you to become 7' tall and grow beans out your ass, not much to ask. Since you didn't immediately comply, I had to follow my rules, which state that anyone who isn't 7'tall and grows beans out their ass because I tell them to must be killed. I, of course, don't have to follow those rules, just make them.
I have pretty much kept a non-confrontational tone up to this point, but you are the most retarded idiot to have infected these boards with sheer stupidity in a long time.

You can't even derive from your little piece of logic above the point I had been making all along. The point is that we have to know their rules and use their rules against them. We can't look upon them as brute animals incapable of reason, otherwise we lose. You haven't gotten that up to this point and I don't think that little "National Merit Scholar" frontal lobe of yours is up to the task.

You go on and on and on and on about this 'war of choice'. I don't remember Bush choosing to fly any planes into the WTC. Anyone who still argues the semantics of whether Iraq is part of the war on terror is just not seeing the big picture at all. Small minded, close minded. I can read the writing the on the wall, you however, are still debating on whether or not its arial script or arial narrow, as the wall falls.
Yes, yes, only frothing at the mouth, gung-ho, retards like you can "see" the big picture.

Bush did choose to attack Iraq, you moronic boob.

I notice you never answered if you had ever seen/felt death as I described. Not all of my questions are 'rhetorical' ya know.
Oh, excuse fucking me oh great National Merit Scholar master of the intellect if I chose what questions to answer and what not to answer. Your question was inappropriate.
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Old 05-16-2004, 01:41 AM   #215
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I only call them cowards cause they cover their faces

they arent holy warriors... they area just a bunch of puppets.... cut the strings and the puppets are nothing...

i say take out the troops and let em fucknig wipe themselves out
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:23 AM   #216
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Bush did choose to attack Iraq, you moronic boob.
And these terrorists chose to attack us.

We went into Iraq for several reasons to begin with, a lot of people seem to forget this. We knew from the beginning that it would not be easy. We knew from the beginning that this was a totally new kind of War for us.

Bush did choose to attack Iraq, you moronic boob.
Ok, first let me say that I don't particularly like GWB, I'm not fond of any politician. But I want you to visualize, for a moment, what exactly might have happened had we done nothing about the multiple terrorist attacks America has suffered... How many innocent people died at the WTC attack? Given the opportunity, do you honestly think they wouldn't do it again?

And since you're so adamant about attacking Bush for his decision to attack the terrorists in Iraq. Let's try to redirect that venom and have you give some ideas. You talk like you have great knowledge of war, what war should be, how war should be handled, and how we should behave during war.

So, let's try this;

1) Let's step back to the WTC attack. What would you have had the president do after the WTC attack?

...now...

2) We are in Iraq already, our troops have over 2,000 rockets/explosives launched at them per day, not to mention the constant sniper fire and other general attacks/kidnappings. If you could take charge, what would you do?

In other words, do you actually have anything constructive to say? Or are you perfectly content to attack others for their opinions?

Oh, and this is directed at most of you. This lumping of "you cons", "you libs", "you dems", whatever. That seems like prejudice view speaking out, not reasonable thinking. Every time I see that phrase, it looks like a.... what did y'all call it?... an N-bomb?
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:40 AM   #217
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I chose what questions to answer and what not to answer. Your question was inappropriate.
That must be Lurispeak for 'hell no, I have no actual knowledge about death, but I read about it a lot, therefore, I am more expert on the topic than anyone else"

Then let's go get the terrorists! Iraq was hardly at the top of the list for terrorist havens. I have stated this before, and I will do so again, 150,000 troops in Afghanistan would have been put to much better use in destroying al Qaeda than where they are now.
So, you would have had us fight a war in an area already shown by the Soviets to be unwinnable? You would have us sacrifice 10x or 100x or 1000x as many US soldiers lives so that we didn't make the French/German/Whiners mad? Brilliant strategy genius.

Again, there is no justification for butchering Nick Berg, none. Live your little fantasy life Lurikeen, where all people are good at heart and should be treated that way.

Me, I advocate separating the good from the bad. We are in a stronghold of terrorism and Islam. They are separate beliefs, and different people follow each.
Muslim experts at the Islamic Research Center (IRRC) at Cairo's al-Azhar University, the world's leading authority on the teachings of Islam. According to the IRCC, a legitimate jihad must meet several requirements: A Muslim must never be the aggressor; a Muslim must fight only those who fight him; and women, children, and the elderly should be spared the duress of war.
That should make it pretty easy to separate those who would kill women and children and Nick Berg, from the rest of Islam. Let the people of Iraq decide. Give them an ultimatum, which is far more than than the terrorists gave the 3,000 people, women and children included, who died in the WTC.

Again, I read your posts, and pretty much your only solution to everything is just leave and guard our borders here. To successfully defend and guard our borders here, will DEMAND that we give up many personal liberties, it's the ONLY possible way to successfully protect ourselves. Are you willing to give up freedom to keep freedom?

I would much rather search out and destroy terrorists far, far from home and maintain that freedom that so many have died for over the years. But, you're the one with all the answers, the most prevalant being 'it's the right thing to do as long as it wasn't done by Bush"

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm
Read through that Luri, then come back here and tell me how reasonable these people are. Tell us how we just need to pull out of Iraq and they will leave us alone. In fact, tell us how we can survive and they will leave us alone?

That was the whole point about me killing you if you can't be 7' and grow beans out your ass. We cannot change who we are. They cannot change who they are. They must be destroyed.

Vulpes

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Old 05-16-2004, 10:18 AM   #218
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And these terrorists chose to attack us.
Which terrorists? Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, so says George Bush. Do you know something that Bush doesn't? Is he wrong about Saddam and 9/11?

Originally Posted by Vulpes
Again, there is no justification for butchering Nick Berg, none. Live your little fantasy life Lurikeen, where all people are good at heart and should be treated that way.
Vulpes, for a so-called National Merit Scholar master of the intellect, you have a very difficult time understanding arguments presented to you and just plain ole english. Did I write that the terrorists who butchered Berg were justified? No. I didn't but in your delusional state of wantoned faith in Bush, you will attack anything, no matter how reasonable, since your beloved Bushiepoo can't do no wrong. That is why you are a rabid, frothing at the mouth, Bush supporter. Oh, ye, National Merit Scholar Master of the Intellect.

Read through that Luri, then come back here and tell me how reasonable these people are. Tell us how we just need to pull out of Iraq and they will leave us alone. In fact, tell us how we can survive and they will leave us alone?
Why assume that I haven't read it? You must think you are the first to discover that link? Hell, nobody could have know about that manual before you popped that link here!

You assume too much and that is why you look like an idiot. I haven't written that we should pull out of Iraq right now; I have stated the opposite. You should have known that with your superior intellect, Corkie.

Why don't you tell us all how attacking Iraq has helped win the war on terror and decreased acts of terror.

Read through that Luri, then come back here and tell me how reasonable these people are. Tell us how we just need to pull out of Iraq and they will leave us alone. In fact, tell us how we can survive and they will leave us alone?
Al Qaeda would have left us alone had we not supported the house of Saud. I am surprised you don't understand the history of what has led up to 9/11. You being the great intellectual scholar and all... how did that get under your mental radar?

Also, you are equivocating "reasonable" with "reason". I haven't claimed that the reasons presented by terrorists would be reasonable to us. Damn, you being the National Merit Scholar Master of the Intellect... I wonder how you missed that too?

That was the whole point about me killing you if you can't be 7' and grow beans out your ass. We cannot change who we are. They cannot change who they are. They must be destroyed.
Yeah, because you say so. Your disregard for human life is stunning. In fact, what do you consider justice? So, dehumanizing others makes us better? I know I can't reason with you, since your intellect is far above those of us on the boards, but it would be interesting if you would grace us with your answer oh great one.
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Old 05-16-2004, 10:39 AM   #219
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Standard debate tactic to abandon a losing argument. They all do it.
National Merit Scholar included.
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Old 05-16-2004, 01:20 PM   #220
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Which terrorists? Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, so says George Bush. Do you know something that Bush doesn't? Is he wrong about Saddam and 9/11?
Ummm, ya... Where in my post did I mention Saddam? Have you forgotten the Al Qeada? Or the other terrorist cells for that matter?
We are fighting a war in Iraq, not against Iraq.

We went into Iraq for several reasons to begin with, a lot of people seem to forget this. We knew from the beginning that it would not be easy. We knew from the beginning that this was a totally new kind of War for us.
I guess you've forgotten.

And you seem to have missed the main part of my post (or are blatantly avoiding it).
In other words, do you actually have anything constructive to say? Or are you perfectly content to attack others for their opinions?
Is the latter half holding true to you?

That was the whole point about me killing you if you can't be 7' and grow beans out your ass. We cannot change who we are. They cannot change who they are. They must be destroyed.
Yeah, because you say so. Your disregard for human life is stunning. In fact, what do you consider justice? So, dehumanizing others makes us better? I know I can't reason with you, since your intellect is far above those of us on the boards, but it would be interesting if you would grace us with your answer oh great one.
I think what Vulpes is trying to say is, these people are raised and bred to believe that if you are not like them, your only purpose in life is to have your veins cut. They believe this because it's in their religion, which has been twisted from it's origin. So, yes, the people we are fighting truely believe that the only good American is a dead American (that goes for other nationalities as well).

Now, I can see a part you're going to attack already, so let me quickly douse that.
the people we are fighting
That does not apply to the entire nation of Iraq, but those we have come to call "insurgents". Remember, this is a war in Iraq, not against Iraq.

Just a little addative, we are all spoon-fed by the media, we are "told" what to believe, in reailty. So, in total, we could all have some fucked up views, based on what channel we watch... =o
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Old 05-16-2004, 02:06 PM   #221
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I am only dealing with my statements that you quoted... some other quotes got into your posting that aren't mine.


Originally Posted by VenomsLust
Ummm, ya... Where in my post did I mention Saddam? Have you forgotten the Al Qeada? Or the other terrorist cells for that matter?
We are fighting a war in Iraq, not against Iraq.
We have been talking about events in Iraq the entire time, but you saw fit to introduce 9/11. George Bush even admits that Saddam (Iraq included) had nothing to do with 9/11. So why would you even bring it up? 9/11 isn't causally relevant to Bush's choice to go to war with Iraq. Remember? Do you remember what reason Bush gave? He stated that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and therefore wasn't compliant with UN resolutions forbidding his possesion of those weapons. That has nothing to do with 9/11.


I think what Vulpes is trying to say is, these people are raised and bred to believe that if you are not like them, your only purpose in life is to have your veins cut. They believe this because it's in their religion, which has been twisted from it's origin. So, yes, the people we are fighting truely believe that the only good American is a dead American (that goes for other nationalities as well).
I don't think your generalization is correct. That is what I have been touching upon. If we first dehumanize these people as irrational beasts, then we have lost. We can't begin to understand them and eventually use their own play book against them. I have created a different thread on this topic so you might want to check that out. I will not argue this point in this thread any further.


That does not apply to the entire nation of Iraq, but those we have come to call "insurgents". Remember, this is a war in Iraq, not against Iraq.

"Insurgents"? How can they be insurgents when there is no established Iraqi government? Remember, the US (and Britain) toppled the established government and set up an unrecognized government. The people fighting in Iraq very likely feel that they are fighting for their way of life and very survival.

I also find your statement "...this is a war in Iraq, not against Iraq" not terribly convincing. It is reminiscient of Bush propoganda. I don't think the majority Shia in Iraq believe that we are their liberators. Iraqis are thankful that Saddam is gone, but they also want the US out of Iraq. Unless we comply, then the war will be revealed as one against Iraq and not for the people of Iraq as Bush wants us to believe.

Just a little addative, we are all spoon-fed by the media, we are "told" what to believe, in reailty. So, in total, we could all have some fucked up views, based on what channel we watch... =o
You only get your news from one source?
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:51 PM   #222
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The one thing that you keep missing in many of my posts Luri, is exactly what Venomslust pointed out. We are fighting a war in Iraq, not necessarily with Iraq. Would anyone...ANYONE have followed or even allowed Bush to move troops into Iraq if he would have stated " I know Iraq has no WMD, I know most of Iraq is not harboring terrorists, but if we fight them in Afghanistan, we are going to lose ~1 million troops doing it, so I would rather fight in Iraq"

Remember, borders over there are just arbitrary lines drawn up after WW1 by Britain and others. They follow no rationale, no rivers, no geographical or topographical features, no ethnic boundaries, they are just lines. Crossing them might anger the international community, but has no bearing on the movements of terrorists.

I honestly believe Bush did what was right, to hell with everyone else, including possibly his political career, because the main job of the president of the US isn't to make other countries happy, or to get re-elected, it's to protect the US and it's citizens. It takes a brave or insightful man to know he is throwing away a chance at re-election because he knows many of his constituents don't understand, but does it anyway. We will NEVER have the information that Bush does, no matter how many leaks or memos or anything we see, it's a fact.

I, too, am done here. We will debate in more rational areas. However, I would appreciate some response to this thinking. What if Iraq was never the
target but was rather just the battleground of choice? Face it, generals fight wars to win, anyone that would go in to fight a war knowing they would lose, wouldn't be in command. We knew Afghanistan was unwinnable, but the US population was screaming for blood. Bush had to do something, and I believe he made the best tactical decision.

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Old 05-16-2004, 07:15 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Vulpes
We knew Afghanistan was unwinnable, but the US population was screaming for blood. Bush had to do something, and I believe he made the best tactical decision.
Soooooo...because we deemed Afghanistan (you know, the country that probably was harboring OBL) unwinnable, and Pakistan (the country that also has probably barbored him, albeit not by the government officially) was deemed an important ally, or Saudi Arabia (the country that produced OBL and the 9/11 attackers mostly) was too important also, we had to invade somebody in that region to satiate a national bloodlust?!?! And this is ok?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

And do you really think we're fighting the people responsible for 9/11 in Iraq? I would say we've done far more to contribute to the possibility of another 9/11 by our actions in Iraq.
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Old 05-16-2004, 07:22 PM   #224
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Vulpes, the obvious problem with your posting is that al Qaeda was not in Iraq when Saddam was in power. Starting a war with Iraq was not at at all dealing with one of the top harborers of terrorists.
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Old 05-16-2004, 07:24 PM   #225
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We have been talking about events in Iraq the entire time, but you saw fit to introduce 9/11. George Bush even admits that Saddam (Iraq included) had nothing to do with 9/11. So why would you even bring it up? 9/11 isn't causally relevant to Bush's choice to go to war with Iraq. Remember? Do you remember what reason Bush gave? He stated that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and therefore wasn't compliant with UN resolutions forbidding his possesion of those weapons. That has nothing to do with 9/11.
Like I said, we went into Iraq with several adgendas in mind. Primarily to oust Saddam, that's done and over with. If you ask me, he needed ousting anyway, whether we did it the right way or not is nearly a mute point now.

The point is this; We went into Iraq to oust Saddam and his regeim. The WMD story was used to help motivate the attack. The military went in and, in my opinion, pulled off a very accurate attack that minimized civilian casualties (comparatively).
Along with the attack on Saddam's regeim, was the hope to exterminate some terrorist cells, mainly Osama Bin Laden.
Now we have military occupation of Iraq, the terrorist cells and some of the clerics are calling for the people to step forth and fight us as we try to rebuild some of what we destroyed.
So, now we are in a defensive position, trying to help them rebuild, help them with policing actions, help them get a governing body in place, defend against the "insurgents", and root out the terrorists that ARE in Iraq.

So, I ask you again; What would you have us do?

I don't think your generalization is correct. That is what I have been touching upon.
I was mainly trying to generalize what Vulpes said.

"Insurgents"? How can they be insurgents when there is no established Iraqi government? Remember, the US (and Britain) toppled the established government and set up an unrecognized government. The people fighting in Iraq very likely feel that they are fighting for their way of life and very survival.
I don't doubt they are. Right now I would assume it wouldn't be difficult to sway their opinions of the U.S.
We're standing in a very difficult position, walking on egg shells, if you will.

I don't think the majority Shia in Iraq believe that we are their liberators. Iraqis are thankful that Saddam is gone, but they also want the US out of Iraq.
So, do you think we should just up and pull out? What do you honestly think would happen if we did?

You only get your news from one source?
Honestly, I don't even own a TV and haven't for over 5 years. But I still hear a lot from different angles. Mainly news articles I dig up on the internet and in the paper.
....and, sadly, from what I see all of you spouting out.
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