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Old 05-16-2004, 07:37 PM   #226
Chiteng
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Vulpes,

At the end of WW2, we tried and executed a great many Germans and Japanese for 'Planning and waging an aggressive war'

They were convicted and hanged. So if you are correct, Bush should be hanged.
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Old 05-16-2004, 08:04 PM   #227
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Only if we lose.

Remember history, Germany and Japan lost the war.

"To the victor go the spoils"

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Old 05-16-2004, 08:23 PM   #228
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we had to invade somebody in that region to satiate a national bloodlust?!?!
One of the reasons, yes. The reasons were twofold though.

1) America wanted revenge, to do nothing, and soon, probably would've meant impeachment of the president. Bush, I believe, also wanted to show the world that we can't just sit back and debate when our people are dying.

2) America wanted a war we could win. We all must concede the point that Afghanistan was an unwinnable theater by any conventional means. It was MADE for guerilla warfare. American's can't stand loss of our soldiers lives. If you had to pick a region/country to fight a war, that had to be fought, where in that region would you pick? Keep in mind all the factors. Now, remember, we had to attack somebody the people demanded it. And, let's face it, Saddam needed gone.

And do you really think we're fighting the people responsible for 9/11 in Iraq? I would say we've done far more to contribute to the possibility of another 9/11 by our actions in Iraq.
Yes, I do. Shall I say it? Dare I say it? Our military could be the 'bait' that draws terrorists to the battle there, leaving fewer supplies and manpower to carry the war to US soil. Islam fundamentalists seem to rely much on honor. If you see comrades dying, you would want to avenge them by killing those that killed them.

We have lost ~700 soldiers at this time in Iraq, approximately 1/5 the casualties of 2 hours on 9/11. It's harsh, but it's logical. Any idea how many the soviets lost in Afghanistan? ~15,000, and they still lost.

One needs only review the recently released casualty figures to underscore the pervasiveness of the problem. Soviet dead and missing in Afghanistan amounted to almost 15,000 troops, a modest percent of the 642,000 Soviets who served during the ten-year war. Far more telling were the 469,685 other casualties, fully 73 percent of the overall force, who were wounded or incapacitated by serious illness. Some 415,932 troops fell victim to disease, of which 115,308 suffered from infectious hepatitis and 31,080 from typhoid fever.
That is almost 5 times the number of troops we are using, it took them ten years, and they lost. You sure you would've wanted to fight in Afghanistan? or would you rather make some world leaders mad at you, rather than sacrificing your own troops.

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Old 05-16-2004, 09:45 PM   #229
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You're talking crazy now Vulpes. You're not interested in justice- that much is clear from these last few posts- you're interested solely in revenge. And not even revenge on the people who planned, organized and executed 9/11, but on any Arab/Muslim who hates the US.

Originally Posted by Vulpes
America wanted revenge, to do nothing, and soon, probably would've meant impeachment of the president. Bush, I believe, also wanted to show the world that we can't just sit back and debate when our people are dying.
Impeachment?! Hell, I saw nothing wrong with going into Afghanistan after OBL. But not going into Iraq would not have hurt him in any way politically as you seem to be saying.

Originally Posted by Vulpes
, remember, we had to attack somebody the people demanded it.
We did- we invaded Afghanistan- the country that refused to give up Osama Bin Laden and had harbored him knowingly. There was no need or sufficient reason to invade Iraq- certainly not on the basis of any 9/11-related logic.

Originally Posted by Vulpes
Yes, I do. Shall I say it? Dare I say it? Our military could be the 'bait' that draws terrorists to the battle there, leaving fewer supplies and manpower to carry the war to US soil. Islam fundamentalists seem to rely much on honor. If you see comrades dying, you would want to avenge them by killing those that killed them.
Don't you think that it's possible we've simply created new "terrorists"? I know it's convenient for the warmongers to assume that we're battling these evil people who want to crush our way of life. Wake up! We invaded their fucking country- that's bound to create some discontent, even when we did depose a reviled dictator.

I guess I'm appalled by your lack of ethics and morals that you could justify a war based on appeasing bloodlust and theater convenience. I suppose it was enough that they were Arabs and Muslims right?
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:20 AM   #230
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..:: Quoting Vulpes ::..
Yes, I do. Shall I say it? Dare I say it? Our military could be the 'bait' that draws terrorists to the battle there, leaving fewer supplies and manpower to carry the war to US soil. Islam fundamentalists seem to rely much on honor. If you see comrades dying, you would want to avenge them by killing those that killed them.
..:: End Quote ::..

You complain about U.S. soldiers dying, yet you write this BS. The fucking terrorists are coming to Iraq because they don't have to risk an attack on the U.S. now, because they have 150,000 of us right here in their backyard to shoot at when they please. They do fight for honor. They think dying while fighting for the will of Allah(god) will take them to heaven.

..:: Quoting Vulpes::..

America wanted a war we could win. We all must concede the point that Afghanistan was an unwinnable theater by any conventional means. It was MADE for guerilla warfare. American's can't stand loss of our soldiers lives. If you had to pick a region/country to fight a war, that had to be fought, where in that region would you pick? Keep in mind all the factors. Now, remember, we had to attack somebody the people demanded it. And, let's face it, Saddam needed gone.

..:: End Quote ::..

What the fuck are you smoking. Do you own a T.V. have you looked at pictures of Iraq. Have you seen Blackhawk Down. We are in a country with a population of twenty-four million people. Afghanistan has a population of twenty-eight million. Baghdad alone has a population of over six million people. If you have seen Blackhawk Down then you would have some kind of clue what it looks like on the streets of Iraq. Yes it is that bad. Now tell me how much better off we are in Iraq. Since you are a self proclaimed logistics officer and proclaim Afghanistan to be a non-winnable theater then describe to me how you would clear Iraq of all hostile forces and how it would be some much easier? Both fronts are just as hard to fight in. If you are digging thru a hole in Afghanistan or convoying down a street in Baghdad both are very tough places.

Also if you have never been to Iraq or Afghanistan then please don't bother responding to the above question. I watched it on T.V. does not count.

..:: Quoting Vulpes::..
I, too, am done here. We will debate in more rational areas. However, I would appreciate some response to this thinking. What if Iraq was never the
target but was rather just the battleground of choice? Face it, generals fight wars to win, anyone that would go in to fight a war knowing they would lose, wouldn't be in command. We knew Afghanistan was unwinnable, but the US population was screaming for blood. Bush had to do something, and I believe he made the best tactical decision.

..::End quote::..

If Iraq was never the target then Bush would be assed out. If that could be proven. Once again thou Iraq is not a better battleground than Afghanistan if anything it is worse. Also I am wanting to know when we lost the war in Afghanistan. We pulled alot of troops out of Afghanistan yes, but we are still there fighting.
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Old 05-17-2004, 02:35 AM   #231
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Naenyen:

Well spoken, couldn't have dome better myself. Can't wait till the draft is instituted to see some of there armchair generals out here. Got to love them for sure.
See you in green zone in a few weeks.
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Old 05-17-2004, 05:27 AM   #232
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Well said, Naenyen...

I agree, at least in Afganistan we knew who the enemy is/was. A much more hunter/killer type operation...not so much cat & mouse.

Be safe, Bro's.
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Old 05-17-2004, 08:18 PM   #233
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http://www.smlinks.com/sotw/why/

The plot thickens! I'd say you can throw out a lot of the points made on that page, but a couple you just can't get around.

First and foremost, the fact that Berg didn't even flinch as his head was slowly hacked off comes across as a *HUGE* sign that he was either already dead or sedated when it happened. However, if someone is so sedated that they don't flinch as they have their head hacked off, do they even bother to scream?

The extreme lack of fluid blood is another huge red flag that stands out to me. Call me what you will, but this isn't the first beheading video I've seen, but it *IS* the first one I've seen with such a lack of free-flowing blood. Well, except for the fake beheading videos, or the ones done on corpses.

Lastly, the fact that Berg is apparently still screaming after his wind pipe has been cut kinda seals the deal. It would be impossible to vocalize *ANY* sound if your wind-pipe was cut from your lungs.

The rest of the points are all gravy and you can argue either way, but the above three I just can't see disputed. Anyone wanna try?
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Old 05-17-2004, 08:31 PM   #234
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Classic thread,
Good-vs-Evil. Those for good, "and then" those for nothing but Evil.

Makes you wonder how many here, truly want freedom. Yes?
And how many are willing to accept that, there is a price for our own little nitch of freedom!



God Bless America
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Old 05-17-2004, 08:33 PM   #235
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Looks like the National Merit Scholar just got owned by Naenyen.
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Old 05-17-2004, 09:26 PM   #236
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Only if we lose.

Remember history, Germany and Japan lost the war.

"To the victor go the spoils"

Vulpes
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Is that right? So we all admire Attila and Genghis? Dont forget Mao.
No Vulpes. principle does matter. So we can infer that you are saying
that the USA executed men on trumped up charges?
What an admirable thing to do.
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:46 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by TheClericBanton
Call me what you will, but this isn't the first beheading video I've seen, but it *IS* the first one I've seen with such a lack of free-flowing blood. Well, except for the fake beheading videos, or the ones done on corpses.
Dude, how many beheading videos have you watched that you need to qualify which one's your discussing? Dunno about everyone else but that's creeping me out, either you're currently on the run from the FBI or you need to spend less time on the Internet.
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Old 05-18-2004, 03:31 AM   #238
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..:: Quoting TheClericBanton ::..
Call me what you will, but this isn't the first beheading video I've seen, but it *IS* the first one I've seen with such a lack of free-flowing blood. Well, except for the fake beheading videos, or the ones done on corpses.
..:: End Quote ::..

He does play a cleric Zaniel. Either way if you are watching beheading videos you need some help bro. I have my doubts after seeing my first beheading if it is real or not, but since I am not the beheading video coniseur Banton is I cannot fully backup my statement.
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Old 05-18-2004, 04:04 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Chiteng
Vulpes,

At the end of WW2, we tried and executed a great many Germans and Japanese for 'Planning and waging an aggressive war'

They were convicted and hanged. So if you are correct, Bush should be hanged.
Could you back that statement up some Chiteng? I am sure the US executed Germans and Japanese convicted of war crimes, but because they "waged an aggressive war" seems pretty doubtful to me. It does fit into your Bush is evil because he chose to go to war instead way of thinking. So, I can see how you might want to bend history to your favor but please at least show some decency towards your fellow Americans and put out some facts that support your view.

Personally, doing a quick search using US executes german prisoners of war, I only found the following:

Waffen SS executes 81 American prisoners of war in Malmedy Massacre.
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Old 05-18-2004, 04:11 AM   #240
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Why the hell are people so hung up on the details of the beheading video? Let me simplify things for you: Nick Berg is missing his goddamn head. That is all that matters. Whether he was alive or dead at the time in the video is completely irrelevant. He was murdered by terrorists, end of story.

For the record, I have not seen the video, nor have I seen any other beheadings. I do not believe that I will be in any way enlightened by seeing it, unless by enlightened you mean physically fucking ill.
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:18 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by crimsonedge
Could you back that statement up some Chiteng? I am sure the US executed Germans and Japanese convicted of war crimes, but because they "waged an aggressive war" seems pretty doubtful to me.
Waging an aggressive war is a war crime in and of itself. Think Poland 1938 as an example of waging aggressive war.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:01 AM   #242
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So you are saying that the US hanged German and Japanese soldiers for fighting a war? I dont think so. They executed individuals that were given trials and convicted of war crimes, I sure cant find any info anywhere where the US or any of the Allied countries just hanged ordinary soldiers. If you believe there is evidence of that Lurikeen please back it up.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:14 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Waging an aggressive war is a war crime in and of itself. Think Poland 1938 as an example of waging aggressive war.
I guess the semantics of this statment could be argued back and forth. "Aggressive" is the only way to fight a war. Any other way is just asking for trouble.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:18 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by crimsonedge
So you are saying that the US hanged German and Japanese soldiers for fighting a war? I dont think so. They executed individuals that were given trials and convicted of war crimes, I sure cant find any info anywhere where the US or any of the Allied countries just hanged ordinary soldiers. If you believe there is evidence of that Lurikeen please back it up.
Here ya go Crimson

All the defendants, with divers other persons, during a period of years preceding 5/8/1945, participated as leaders, organizers, instigators, or accomplices in the formulation or execution of a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit, or which involved the commission of, Crimes against Peace, War Crimes, and Crimes against Humanity, as defined in the Charter of this Tribunal, and, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter, are individually responsible for their own acts and for all acts committed by any persons in the execution of such plan and conspiracy. The Common Plan or Conspiracy embraced the commission of Crimes against Peace, in that the defendants planned, prepared, initiated, and waged wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances.

Count One: The Common Plan or Conspiracy", in Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal. Volume II. Proceedings: 11/14/1945-11/30/1945. [Official text in the English language.] Nuremberg: IMT, 1947. pp. 29-41.
Edit: BTW, all the accused were found guilty on count one.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:23 AM   #245
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That is not evidence of the US or its Allies hanging ordinary soldiers for participating in the war.

Try again if you like but leave out the spin this time.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:27 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by crimsonedge
That is not evidence of the US or its Allies hanging ordinary soldiers for participating in the war.

Try again if you like but leave out the spin this time.
Crimson, are you familiar with the Nuremberg trials? I provided you a quote of Count One of the offenses the following were found guilty of. Many of the following were executed and many others served jail time.

Hermann Wilhelm Goering, Rudolf Hess, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Robert Ley, Wilhelm Keitel, Ernst Kaltenbrunner. Alfred Rosenberg, Hans Frank, Wilhelm Frick, Julius Streicher. Walter Funk, Hjalmar Schacht, Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, Karl Doenitz, Erich Raeder, Baldur von Schirach, Fritz Sauckel, Alfred Jodl, Martin Bormann, Franz von Papen, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Albert Speer, Constantin von Neurath and Hans Fritzsche, individually and as members of any of the groups or organizations next hereinafter named.

II. The following are named as groups or organizations (since dissolved) which should be declared criminal by reason of their aims and the means used for the accomplishment thereof, and in connection with the conviction of such of the named defendants as members thereof:

Die Reichsregierung (Reich Cabinet); das Korps der Politischen Leiter der Nationalsozialistischen Deutschen Arbeiterpartei (Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party); die Schutzstaffeln der Nationalsozialistischen Arbeiterpartei (commonly known as the "SS") and including the Sicherheitsdienst (commonly known as the "SD"); die Geheime Staatspolizei (Secret State Police, commonly known as the "Gestapo"); die Sturmabteilungen der NSDAP (commonly known as the "SA"), and the General Staff and the High Command of the German Armed Forces.
This is a matter of historical record and is absolute proof. You can deny it all you want, but you just look foolish in so doing.

Edit: BTW, nobody stated that "common soldiers" were hanged for starting a war of aggression. Nice try.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:47 AM   #247
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Of course Im not denying the Nuremberg trials didnt happen. I am saying that it wasnt a Great many as Chiteng quoted. It was those responsible for the attrocities committed during the war not the ordinary soldier which is the way I took his comment to extend to.

Last edited by crimsonedge; 05-18-2004 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:50 AM   #248
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Hey guys can we muddy the issues some more, please????
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Old 05-18-2004, 05:44 PM   #249
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You complain about U.S. soldiers dying, yet you write this BS. The fucking terrorists are coming to Iraq because they don't have to risk an attack on the U.S. now, because they have 150,000 of us right here in their backyard to shoot at when they please. They do fight for honor. They think dying while fighting for the will of Allah(god) will take them to heaven.
Isn't that pretty much exactly what I said? Where is the arguement here?
I know you are there fighting Naen, and I respect that, but I personally think that it is MUCH better to have the enemy fighting trained military personnel, rather than blowing up secretaries, don't you?

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Old 05-18-2004, 05:50 PM   #250
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"To the victor go the spoils"
Is that right? So we all admire Attila and Genghis? Dont forget Mao.
Hmmm, I musta missed where I even implied admiration. I simply was stating that losers of a war, sure don't have a hell of a lot of say, now do they? Way to try to put words in my mouth. How about...you just read what I write? There's a stretch.

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