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Old 05-11-2004, 04:20 AM   #26
Caoilfhionn
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That's geetar to you. I'm not from around here, don't try to put off your banjo loving genes on me!
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:28 AM   #27
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You know you love it, Cao, I just know that you're reluctant to admit it because you don't know much about it. Don't worry! Under my tutelage, you'll be a-pickin' and a-grinnin' in no time!
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:49 AM   #28
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Impossible. I still have all my teeth, and would look out of place.
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:46 AM   #29
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Well, I'm thoroughly creeped out now!

Though I really can't complain much, living in one of the prominent hillbilly states myself.
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:51 AM   #30
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But...Ulujain! She's a sweet girl with a sense of humor to boot, just the kinda girl you want to take home to Mom, and have bear your children!
Too late! If I'm not mistaken she is already pregnant from her Iraqi prisoner boyfriend!
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Old 05-11-2004, 07:46 AM   #31
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Tin foil caps and conspiracy. Lets say it was all orchestrated by the left wing (and possibly the Clintons since they know all about sexual things in the wrong places) to discredit the current administration.


In reality, I think these photos were meant to be a chronicle for some really disgusting folks who thought it was a funny thing to do. This is where we have gone in our country (insert slippery slope statement) that people can't be trusted to manage themselves and those in their charge with a little dignity.
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Old 05-11-2004, 09:31 AM   #32
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119580,00.html

Lawyer: Female MP Ordered to Pose for Photos

Tuesday, May 11, 2004

DENVER An Army reservist who was photographed smiling and pointing at naked, bound Iraqi prisoners had been ordered to pose because her presence would be especially humiliating to the men, her attorneys said.



The photos were staged by intelligence agents to intimidate other prisoners, and appearing naked in front of a young woman would be especially humiliating to Iraqi men, attorney Rose Mary Zapor said Monday.

Pfc. Lynndie R. England (search), 21, is charged with mistreating prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison (search) in a scandal that has sparked worldwide outrage.

"The (soldiers) pictured were congratulated. They were told the photographs were successful in gathering information," Zapor said.

Defense lawyers believe the photos may have been made at the direction of civilians in the CIA, Zapor said. She said the defense team did not know who told England to pose in them.

Six other soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company (search) are also charged. One, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits (search) of Hyndman, Pa., will face a court-martial in Baghdad next week.

Another of England's Denver-based attorneys, Giorgio Ra'shadd, was at Fort Bragg, N.C., where England is now stationed, on Tuesday. He said in a telephone interview that he planned to spend the day meeting with Army lawyers and his client.

He said his client was being offered up as a scapegoat for the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.

"What is offensive to me is that we have generals and the secretary of defense hiding behind a 20-year-old farm girl from West Virginia who lives in a trailer park," Ra'Shadd said.

He said the military was so short of troops in Iraq that untrained people were being used as guards.

"Because there was a shortage of personnel the commander on the scene took people who had no idea how to be MPs and cut them off at the neck from their leadership," he said. "That is crazy."

Asked if his client considered refusing to obey unlawful orders from jail commanders, he said her rank meant she took orders from most other ranks.

Ra'Shadd plans to ask for a change of venue because he does not believe England can get a fair court-martial at Fort Bragg, Zapor said.

England faces military charges including conspiracy to maltreat prisoners and assault consummated by battery, and could face punishments ranging from a reprimand to more than 15 years in prison.

Ra'Shadd, part of a group of attorneys in the Denver area with experience in military cases, and three other lawyers have agreed to take England's case for free, Zapor said.

In photographs that have been shown worldwide, England is seen smiling, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi. Another photo shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side, his face contorted.

Ra'Shadd said his client joined the Army Reserves out of patriotism and to prevent another terrorist attack like Sept. 11. He said intelligence operatives staged many of the scenes depicted in the photographs to frighten prisoners into talking.

"That is a standard psychological war method," he said. But when it comes to defending his client, he said, "the spooks from the CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency and State Department won't show up when we subpoena them. They will go into hiding."

Ra'Shadd has worked on other high-profile military cases, including that of Spc. Simone Holcomb, who refused to return to Iraq so she could care for her seven children. Holcomb was released from active duty in November.
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Old 05-11-2004, 10:45 AM   #33
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What horseshit. Predictable, but horseshit nonetheless. We knew they'd play the "innocent impressionable farm girl from West Virginia" routine.
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Old 05-11-2004, 01:21 PM   #34
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I guess all those jokes about the farmer's daughter were true.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:55 PM   #35
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Following orders is not an excuse anyhow.
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Old 05-12-2004, 04:09 AM   #36
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Following orders is not an excuse anyhow.
Well, on something we agree. If my boss directed me to go kill someone, and I do it, I'm guilty of murder. If they don't have the backbone to question orders of this nature, then that doesn't make them any better than if they'd acted alone.
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Old 05-12-2004, 04:39 AM   #37
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The friend of mine who just got back from Iraq showed me all the pictures he had taken. Trust me some of the stuff he had was purely gross. I mean I have watched most of the Faces of Death but his pictures beat them.

He had a whole folder of pictures taken after a car bomb. The sight of someone's head on the ground with body parts skewered everywhere was slightly unsettling.

so I think the whole picture taking thing is alittle more widespread really.

And yes he was a reservist.
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Old 05-12-2004, 05:11 AM   #38
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The only pictures Ive ever taken were of my unit, my buddies and our antics. I do have a couple of really good shots of tracerfire and a night bombing run, but for the most part its just "good" memories.

That being said, I know way too many folks into the whole "Trophy" pics. I never judged them, but some of that stuff is raw in person, and you never lose the images in your head. Why anyone would preserve it on film is beyond me.

These photos were just that "Trophy's". If these were in fact taken as part of a systematic "break-down" of prisoners as an interrogation technique...there would not have been personal photos in the collection.

They're guilty and deserve every bit of punishment the court can throw on them.
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:59 PM   #39
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Apparently Lindy England has found herself a spiffy lawyer to defend her case.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119704,00.html

Private: Superiors Gave Iraq Abuse Orders

Wednesday, May 12, 2004

FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. The Army private facing a court-martial for being photographed with naked Iraqi prisoners says she was following orders to create psychological pressure on them.



Pfc. Lynndie England (search) told KCNC-TV in Denver on Tuesday that her superiors gave her specific instructions on how to pose for the photos. Asked who gave the orders, she would say only, "Persons in my chain of command."

In photographs that have been shown worldwide, England, 21, is seen smiling, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi. Another photo taken at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison (search) shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side.

"I was instructed by persons in higher rank to 'stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera,' and they took picture for PsyOps (psychological operations)," she told the station.

"I didn't really, I mean, want to be in any pictures," she said. She also said she thought "it was kind of weird."

The interview was taped Tuesday at Fort Bragg, N.C., where England, a military reservist from West Virginia, met with one of a team of Denver lawyers who have volunteered to take her case.

Asked whether worse things happened than those already seen on the photos, she said yes but declined to elaborate.

She said her superiors praised the photos and "just told us, 'Hey, you're doing great, keep it up.'"

England faces a military court-martial that includes charges such as conspiracy to maltreat prisoners and assault consummated by battery, and could face punishment ranging from a reprimand to more than 15 years in prison.

No date has been set for a hearing in the case.

Six other soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company are also charged. One, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., will face a court-martial in Baghdad next week.

"We don't feel like we were doing things that we weren't supposed to because we were told to do them," England said. "We think everything was justified because we were instructed to do this and to do that."

After meeting with England, attorney Giorgio Ra'Shadd said she shouldn't be used as a scapegoat by the military.

"You don't see my client doing anything abusive at all," Ra'Shadd said in an interview. "I think she was ordered to smile."

Ra'Shadd said England was pulled into the situations by intelligence agents who subverted the military chain of command. He said they used England to humiliate the men being photographed so they could show the pictures to more important prisoners and threaten them with the same treatment.

"The spooks took over the jail," said Ra'Shadd. Now in private practice, he was formerly an Army lawyer was assigned to the civil affairs and psychological operations command at Fort Bragg.

Also Tuesday, Pentagon officials told a Senate committee that the prison conditions shown in the pictures were confined to a few low-level soldiers and intelligence officers.

But Ra'Shadd contended that the blame for the scandal lies high up in the chain of command, arguing that only the highest-ranking officials could have allowed civilian intelligence to override military command structure.

This nugget of wisdom

After meeting with England, attorney Giorgio Ra'Shadd said she shouldn't be used as a scapegoat by the military.

"You don't see my client doing anything abusive at all," Ra'Shadd said in an interview. "I think she was ordered to smile."
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:11 PM   #40
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I think I saw all this on an episode of JAG.
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Old 05-13-2004, 01:30 AM   #41
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She (it?) can find the best blood-sucking lawyer she wants; following orders has never been accepted as an excuse in a war crime trial.

It isn't just US military law here, it's several international laws and conventions.

She's SoL.
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