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Old 05-12-2004, 07:34 AM   #26
Kulani Autumnwood
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
To me, that makes human life appear expendable in a way that it shouldn't be.
Heh, why not, every other species on the planet is expendable.

(note that that isn't my belief, it's just a "sick and fed up with the world" observation of someone who's seen too many animals die for no reason other than that they're "disposable" in her life.)
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:35 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
I do have a big problem with the farming of human lives for the purpose of killing/aborting them for research. To me, that makes human life appear expendable in a way that it shouldn't be.
So, do you think that a human embryo (fertillized egg) is a person?
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:48 AM   #28
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Don't think, for one second, denying private Bio-Corps funding will prevent secret research. This is the future, and they know it. As far as corporate minds are concerned, there is an incalculable amount of wealth to be made here. Sooner or later, this will happen.

Hopefully people ar not so naiive to think this research is not going on, right now in labs across the world. I doubt there is a shortage of embryos to be had, if you know the right countries to go to.

Might as well, embrace the good that can come from it and not get all hung up op on the pseudo-religous implications.
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
So, do you think that a human embryo (fertillized egg) is a person?

Originally Posted by Brigiid
And yes, this would make it obvious that I consider a fetus to be a human life and therefore deserving of protection.
I know that my opinion is not the popular one, and is grounded largely in religious belief or a feeling of right vs. wrong that I can't really explain. *shrug*
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:31 AM   #30
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Brigiid, you do know the difference between a human embryo (fertilized egg) and a fetus, don't you?

I don't think the issue is taking the embryo in later stages of development (fetus) and using that for stem cell research. What is being taken are zygotes.

So, I should have asked, do you think a human zygote is a person?
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
I know that my opinion is not the popular one, and is grounded largely in religious belief or a feeling of right vs. wrong that I can't really explain. *shrug*
Im sure thats great comfort to the people whose illnesses may go unresearched and untreated because of attitudes like yours
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:45 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Brigiid, you do know the difference between a human embryo (fertilized egg) and a fetus, don't you?
Yes, I'm aware of the difference, and yes, I believe that once conception occurs, it is a human life.


Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Im sure thats great comfort to the people whose illnesses may go unresearched and untreated because of attitudes like yours
I said that I had concerns, and could understand other people having concerns as well. When did it become a crime to have and express a concern? I said in my first post in this thread that I was undecided on the issue, and I remain undecided. I see pros and cons in both situations.
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:53 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Yes, I'm aware of the difference, and yes, I believe that once conception occurs, it is a human life.
So, would you say that when a pollinated acorn drops off an oak tree, it is itself an oak tree?
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:20 AM   #34
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Im sure thats great comfort to the people whose illnesses may go unresearched and untreated because of attitudes like yours
Yeah, screw the people that haven't even been born yet! What the fuck did they ever do for anybody?
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:55 AM   #35
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Wildane, you must mean "those developing human cells that couldn't survive on their own." Surely we're not talking about people.
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Old 05-12-2004, 10:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
So, would you say that when a pollinated acorn drops off an oak tree, it is itself an oak tree?
Why are you so determined to challenge my belief here? I've told you what I believe to be true, and it doesn't matter a great deal to me whether you share that opinion or not. If you've gotta keep rephrasing the question, you're either incredibly dense or you just enjoy trying to make me change my story, which I won't do.

My previous answer applies to this situation as well, just so you can't say I dodged your question.
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Old 05-13-2004, 01:18 AM   #37
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I really don't dig the 'capable of life outside womb' thing when 99.999% of civilisation is reliant on the market network of labor for wages, crops for food, livestock for meat and shelter for refuge. In fact is there a soul alive who can determine their own self-suffiency since the moment they have left their mother's uterus? This stem cell harvesting from human embryos crosses a divide where all principle dies. Here Mankind forgets why fellow man discriminates what is human above all the animal kingdom, and sows a seed of self-destruction.

Suburban man does not hunt his meat and gather huge stores of grain by the driveway kerb. Oven and refrigerator components don't wash up from the sea ready for assembly into complete units.
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Old 05-13-2004, 03:44 AM   #38
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Wildane, you must mean "those developing human cells that couldn't survive on their own." Surely we're not talking about people.
Well that's a poor argument. Take one of these possible stem cell beneficiaries that's living on life support and unplug them. Well, they can't survive on their own either. On the one hand, we have something that has a 99.99% chance of becoming a human life. On the other hand, we have a theory. How is it I'm the ridiculous one?
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:37 AM   #39
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I guess I just don't care about the potential future of a collection of cells- if a pregnancy is to be aborted anyway, where is the problem in using that tissue? Even you anti-abortion nuts I would think would want to see some good come of an unhappy thing (as abortion always is)?
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:55 AM   #40
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"I never understand this line of logic so many of you cons use. If he's wrong, then I couldn't care less that he's standing behind his beliefs and values. Do you respect Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot for standing behind their beliefs and values?" Hormadrune

Wow, even I didn't think Horm was that stupid. Comparing Bush's belief in Pro Life to Hitler's belief on annihilating an entire race is a stretch to say the least. As a matter of fact, I believe historians hundreds of years from now will be aghast at a society that murder's it's own unborn citizens, all for the reason of convenience. You talk about stem cell research and it's potential. What if the person who had the cure for cancer was aborted? What if the next Mozart, or Edison, or Bell was aborted? It is all conjecture, to be sure. Us who believe in Pro Life believe that each life has a value and a potential. Who are we to say that NO, that life does not have value? All life has value!
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by IM
Wow, even I didn't think Horm was that stupid. Comparing Bush's belief in Pro Life to Hitler's belief on annihilating an entire race is a stretch to say the least.
I guess I really do have to go through everything phonetically with you IM. I didn't realize I was being subtle. I used some of history's worst villains to show that supporting a person's standing up for their beliefs as an inherently good thing is illogical. I believe it was Brigiid who prompted my post by saying she didn't know where she stood on the issue but really respected GWB's standing up for his ideals. Why is everything so hard for you IM? I thought you were this brilliant person with an Einsteinesque IQ? And yet here I am, holding your hand and wiping drool off your chin. Again.

Originally Posted by IM
Who are we to say that NO, that life does not have value? All life has value!
Except Muslim life, right?
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:33 AM   #42
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ALL life has value. If that life decides to be criminal, then that life's ACTIONS should have consequences. Are you following me Horm or is this too complex? Having value and facing consequences are two different issues!! I know, this is complex Horm, you just want everyone to hold hands and get along, a true Socialist State!! Ain't gonna happen, my boy!!
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:39 AM   #43
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So you honestly think all Muslims are criminal IM? After all, you called for them being wiped off the planet.

Socialism? You thinking me to be an advocate for socialism shows just how little you understand systems of government and how you clearly haven't been listening to my ranting and raving all these months. A liberal I am- a socialist I most certainly am not. Nice "cornered right-wing nutjob" cliche though- when in doubt Call 'Em Commies!!! Clod....
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:52 AM   #44
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As a matter of fact, I believe historians hundreds of years from now will be aghast at a society that murder's it's own unborn citizens, all for the reason of convenience. You talk about stem cell research and it's potential. What if the person who had the cure for cancer was aborted? What if the next Mozart, or Edison, or Bell was aborted?
What if the aborted embryo saved the next Mozart, or Edison, or Bell, along with millions of people.
ALL life has value.
I bet you have leather shoes, and a wooden house.
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
Why are you so determined to challenge my belief here?
Probably because I don't think we can reasonably equate a pollinated acorn that has dropped to the ground with an oak tree. Likewise, we can't reasonably equate a fertilized human egg with a person.

So, I am just puzzled by your position and wanted to read your responses to my questions.
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:30 AM   #46
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Federal funding is not available for any embryonic stem cell line created after August 9, 2001. Period.

Some states have made it difficult to perform research, some have outlawed it completely and only 3 out of 50 states specifically allow it. In all other states it is either very prohibitive or outright illegal. Please don't perpetuate the myth that there's massive state funding for this. There isn't.

The current restrictions regarding federal funding do not apply to any research funded by private companies. However, many states do apply restrictions.

There are an estimated 100,000 fertilized eggs in frozen storage placed there by couples during IVF. Most will eventually be discarded. Cell lines could be created from these eggs, but it's difficult, and even if it's successful, they are embryonic lines under the federal restriction.

Universal stem cells can only be harvested in the blastocyst phase. This is typically about 6-8 days from fertilization.

There is also SCNT, in which an egg is harvested from a donar, the nucleus removed and replaced with DNA from the person suffering. It's therapeutic cloning. There is a bill from prior to 9/11 that has never been passed that would make this entirely illegal, as well as restrict existing lines and creation of lines even further.

I keep up with this stuff because it has a very real impact on my life, since I do suffer from a disease that stem cell research could show to greatly relieve or even cure.

By the way, of the 72 lines that federal funding could potentially be used for, many scientists believe that only 3 have any real use and are viable for research. Additionally, it's believe that the 72 lines are not different lines, as stated by the federal government, but that some are actually derived from another line. And scientists find that accessing those lines is very difficult. So...we have 72 lines, but maybe less than that...and it's hard to get access to them, and even if you do, will you get one of the lucky 3? Can anyone understand the frustration of the scientists, but even more importantly, the patients?

Do I want a baby aborted just so I can live a better life? Absolutely not. Do I want the chance to live a better life off of something that's going to be thrown away anyway? Yes.
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Old 05-13-2004, 08:09 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Wildane, you must mean "those developing human cells that couldn't survive on their own." Surely we're not talking about people.
You mean like babies? Lets kill babies too! They're stinky and they don't contribute to society. Dump your baby on the front lawn and it dies. It's obviously not a person.
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Old 05-13-2004, 08:13 AM   #48
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You're not very good at reading Jelceie.

Read Cao's last post for a more eloquent version of how I feel about this subject.
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Old 05-14-2004, 12:05 AM   #49
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A grey area conflicts with the seperate interest of preserving successive unborn generations for the unreserved survival of future society, and neo-society preying on pregnant women. Where on one hand there's the Family Planning clinic/abortion clinic. Then on the other hand maybe a lab clinician in the back room, out there somewhere; somebody who is opportunistically harvesting embryonic Stem cells anyway. A deeply suspect world rises.

Do I want a baby aborted just so I can live a better life? Absolutely not. Do I want the chance to live a better life off of something that's going to be thrown away anyway? Yes.
The illegal trade in cadavers and body parts of the medieval past did not exactly stop once it was clearly illegal, and the trade in body parts today is global (legal or not). I'd say that the debate alone over Embryonic Stem cell harvesting for research and medical advancement does not end the matter. Legislation obviously can run counter to what actually goes on around the globe as well.

Herein lies the implied reservation:
Question 1

1. To which kind of humanity then are we to belong...

The one which passes on teh baton to succeeding generations, or a neo-Carthaginian society increasing the mortal allotment of its few priviledged members lives through dispersement of succeeding unborn generations?
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Old 05-14-2004, 05:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
if a pregnancy is to be aborted anyway, where is the problem in using that tissue? Even you anti-abortion nuts I would think would want to see some good come of an unhappy thing (as abortion always is)?
I have no problem using the aborted fetus for research. I just don't think the research should be federally funded. I don't advocate abortion, but it's legal and I agree they should try to do something positive with the fetus rather than disgard it. I'm also saying that I understand Bush's stance on stem cell research since he is pro-life. It would be pretty hypocritical for Bush to be against abortions then fund stem cell research with government funds.
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