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Old 05-09-2004, 10:42 AM   #1
bumbleroot
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Default Active Generals believe we may be losing war

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4934116/

Army Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., the commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, who spent much of the year in western Iraq, said he believes that at the tactical level at which fighting occurs, the U.S. military is still winning. But when asked whether he believes the United States is losing, he said, "I think strategically, we are."
Here I am, 30 years later, thinking we will win every fight and lose the war, because we don't understand the war we're in."
Some officers say the place to begin restructuring U.S. policy is by ousting Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, whom they see as responsible for a series of strategic and tactical blunders over the past year. Several of those interviewed said a profound anger is building within the Army at Rumsfeld and those around him.
As Bum has said- you can win the battles but lose the war.
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Old 05-09-2004, 01:39 PM   #2
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Look everyone. Bumble found another Op-Ed he agrees with. Whoopee
We better get Kerry into office QUICK before the world ends.
If anything, Kerry would know how to cut and run.

Not that 10million citizens have clean water. Nope.
Or that the oil is flowing at a higher rate then prewar iraq.
Or that people there are truly begining to realize freedom.

Fuck them. We should just get out. And while were at it,
dismantle our military. Why? Well, because our military
are the warmongers of society. And while were at it
lets disarm the USA and make us vunerable to attack by
anybody who wants to attack us.

Yea, thats the way Bumblroot the Pacifist wants it to be.


And that General? I'll bet he was misquoted and paid off.
Prove to us he wasn't Bumble. LOL idiot leftists.



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Old 05-09-2004, 01:41 PM   #3
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Prove to us that he was.

Burden of proof isn't on bumble, he just linked it.
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Old 05-09-2004, 01:49 PM   #4
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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OK. the article "does not" give this illusive Generals name.
Thats all the proof I need to determine that this was
made up through assumptions.

Another Liberal-media-agenda Busted!



Have a wonderful and Happy day.






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Old 05-09-2004, 02:01 PM   #5
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Zolmaz has never understood burden of proof: I doubt he could define the concept let alone apply it.
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:05 PM   #6
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Look everyone. Bumble found another Op-Ed he agrees with.
I guess I see what the entire problem is then. You cons can not distinguish what an op-ed is. This is not an op-ed. For the record, MSNBC does not do op-eds. This is a reporting on a story that I heard word of on the Sunday talk shows earlier this morning.
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:27 PM   #7
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
I guess I see what the entire problem is then. You cons can not distinguish what an op-ed is. This is not an op-ed. For the record, MSNBC does not do op-eds. This is a reporting on a story that I heard word of on the Sunday talk shows earlier this morning.
Then why focus on the OP-ED comment only? Btw, it is an Op-Ed.

Are you bias? Do you only exist to hide from facts? Are you affraid of
the BS you post, when others can factually put you in your place?

And you think to yourself, what a horrible world you live in Bumble.
No pride, no love, no appriciation, and no integrity practiced in your life.
The world is nothing but evil and resentment. Hate and death. Ugly as ugly can be.

Am I wrong in your thinking Bumble? According to your posts, I'm not.

Unless you go back 1-year and change every-one of your posts, you cannot
disagree with my assesment of you.

Btw, changing posts, changes dates of edit. Don't even try it.


Bumbleroot,
Stop fighting logic. It doesn't suit you.,
Your hindering your own future.




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God Bless George W. Bush
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:55 PM   #8
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Zolmaz has never understood burden of proof: I doubt he
could define the concept let alone apply it.
And you? You bash me, yet fail to tell us all how much more superior you are
over everybody in the forum.

Please Horm, Explain to us how much intelligence you have, and how everyone else lacks
what you piss away as a fleeting thought, on a daily basis.
Fuckin idiot.


Hormadrune? Us peons wait for your UBER response. /BOW TO THE KING HORMADRUNE





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Old 05-09-2004, 08:35 PM   #9
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I would have to agree with what was said, for the most part.

We may win battles, but in the end, we still bombed the hell out of their country and lives were lost. War is not pretty, regardless of who wins. I do feel that we're justified in being there, but I don't think we're going to wake up one morning and go, "Wow. The war is done, everything's peachy, no guilt, no regrets, and we fixed all the problems we set out to fix."

I don't think there's ever going to be a day when we can say, "The USA ended terrorism forever on July 21, 20XX." Much like the war on drugs, it will still exist in one form or another for years to come. As long as there's a cause worth fighting for, there will be someone willing to take it to the extreme to prove their point. I think expecting a definite resolution to the terrorism situation is a bit unreasonable.

Hopefully, we can at least return the nation of Iraq to some form of livability, then get the heck outta dodge and let them rule their own country. That is an achievable goal.
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Old 05-09-2004, 08:39 PM   #10
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Then why focus on the OP-ED comment only? Btw, it is an Op-Ed.
I quoted what the Generals said. Go back and look at my post. The fact that you read something into it means that in your mind you have editorialized it. The words of those generals are not op-ed. It is a quote of the generals. That is what the story is about. The fact that it leans against what you want to hear doesn't mean it is op-ed. It means that you can not accept anything as truth if you don't want to hear what it says.
I said nothing more about it other than Al"you can win the battles but lose the war." I reiterated that because I have said that repeatedly in the past and now even an active General serving in Iraq is saying the same thing. I had to show that this is not just what I have said. It is a case where my words are proving to be right AGAIN.


No pride, no love, no appriciation, and no integrity practiced in your life.
The world is nothing but evil and resentment. Hate and death. Ugly as ugly can be.
Z- I don't advocate war simply to kill people. I don't harbor hate towards nations. I know that their people don't always represent the leader's policies. I am not a pacifist. I do not back away from a necessary fight. I would think my constant fighting on these boards would exhibit that in my character. I, however also am the child of a West Point grad (tired of hearing that yet?) and I know from him that war is not something that is done without solemnity. It is and only can be a monumental decision. It should always be avoided if there are other options to achieve the goal. Anything that causes death is not a decision that should be taken lightly. I grew up in a world where Vietnam was an everyday part of one's life. As a child I knew that it effects more than just the soldier. For that reason, I believe that war should not be jumped into unless it is necessary. This one has never proven to be necessary and even if YOU believe it to be, it still has never proven as such. In fact, nobody has proven it to be.
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Old 05-09-2004, 09:06 PM   #11
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
I quoted what the Generals said. Go back and look at my post. The fact that you read something into it means that in your mind you have editorialized it. The words of those generals are not op-ed. It is a quote of the generals. That is what the story is about.
You quoted an Op-ED. The General you speak of is not Named.
The article is bullshit. They do not name the Source of their information.

Therefore, your post is another Op-Ed qouted source full of opinion and bias.

The Generals name in your link is not QUOTED!
Your post is nothing but propaganda.
And you've been conned into being
the usefull idiot for their cause.

Feeling good about the liberal biased media?

You're much to smart for being taken advantage of like this Bumbleroot.
I give you more credit then you imagine.



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Old 05-09-2004, 09:45 PM   #12
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You quoted an Op-ED. The General you speak of is not Named.
The article is bullshit. They do not name the Source of their information.
You are ridiculous. You don't even understand what an Op-ed is apparently. It doesn't matter if a source is anonymous or not. That doesn't make a story an op-ed. Where you get that reasoning from I haven't a clue.
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:25 PM   #13
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lol, bumble, this fight against zol is useless even when the war is lost he will follow the prez.
but you know what, i am really happy to see guys like you. otherwise i would think the US went complete nuts.

-Lars
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Zolmaz Zo'Boto
The Generals name in your link is not QUOTED!
Okay Zolmaz go back an read the first paragraph of bumbleroots post and explain to me how thats not a quote from a named General ?
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:30 AM   #15
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Zolmaz, you need to up your meds or something. That faulty wiring is making you look like more of an ass than usual.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:51 AM   #16
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Instead of attacking each other back and forth, lets look at the original post. There is no doubt of the superiority of the US Armed Forces. The problem here is the GOAL and the means to obtain that GOAL. I do agree that I think Rumsfeld underestimated the consequences of invading Iraq. It is easy to remove a person from power, and most Iraqi's wanted Hussein out. The problem occurs after that is done, when there is a power vacuum in the country. Iraqi's want the US out of their lives, sort of the way a teenager wants a parent to get out of their life. But the US knows that if they leave, another Saddam Hussein will step in, and a year or two from now, everyone will be back to square one, minus a few thousand lives and a few billion in used up munitions, etc....

The trick here is to let the Iraqi people set up their own government with as little outside intervention as possible. Get the United States out of the mix as soon as possible, there is no way we are going to force our culture down the Middle Easterner's throat. What we need to do is let them chose their own destiny, whether it be a Republic, a Democracy, a Theocracy, or even a Dictatorship, albeit hopefully a benevolent one.

War is messy and Iraq is messy right now. That doens't mean the the US did the wrong thing, we may have done the right thing but in the wrong way or in an inefficient way. I enoyed the line from Bruce Almighty, towards the end, when "god" says, "...no matter how dirty things get, you can always clean it up....". The US can still clean things up, but I think the philosophical approach does need to be changed and quickly.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:15 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
What we need to do is let them chose their own destiny, whether it be a Republic, a Democracy, a Theocracy, or even a Dictatorship, albeit hopefully a benevolent one.
You're playing both sides: first you say they should choose their own destiny, but you also advocate removing undesirable regimes from power. Which is it? What happens if a SH-like figure gains leadership of Iraq- do we do this all over again or will you stick to your "choose their own destiny" line?
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:20 AM   #18
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sort of the way a teenager wants a parent to get out of their life
Unfortunately IM you don't know how they want us out. It is wrong to assume that you understand what is in their hearts. As an example I have heard there is a lot of sentiment for Sadr and the mere fact that insurgents are able to move freely amongst crowds tells one that there is support amongst many in Iraq. We don't know how strong or weak it is or even its sentiment. To pretend we do is just a little precipitous.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:01 AM   #19
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Horm, when you grow up, I will answer you. It's obvious that you do not understand international politics or economics or cultures or even what 2 plus 2 equals.

But to the rest of you, there are MORE than 2 sides to this, maybe more than 100 sides to this, if you consider all factions and international interests.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:14 AM   #20
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Wonder why Bumble didnt link all the positive quotes in the bottom of the article? Hmm pessimist...nah couldnt be.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:23 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Horm, when you grow up, I will answer you. It's obvious that you do not understand international politics or economics or cultures or even what 2 plus 2 equals.

But to the rest of you, there are MORE than 2 sides to this, maybe more than 100 sides to this, if you consider all factions and international interests.
Or perhaps even this most obvious duality of your position has you stumped. What's it gonna be IM- eventual Iraqi autonomy without our interference or not? That's a simple question- even you can do this one.

And given your continually displayed ignorance of the subjects you just listed I had to chuckle at your claim that I don't understand them
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:04 AM   #22
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Wonder why Bumble didnt link all the positive quotes in the bottom of the article? Hmm pessimist...nah couldnt be.
And what praytell are those? From Wolfowitz? He isn't a general on the field. All he is is a theoritician. In fact, this story isn't about what Wolfowitz thinks. We already knew it. He was the idiot who did that manifesto to take Iraq in the late 90s. Those who actually are on the ground living the "theories" of Wolfowitz are the ones with the insight.

And if you wish to talk about vagueries, try this one on-
He said that by contrast, he had been "struck at how many fairly senior officers have come to me" to tell him that he and Rumsfeld have made the right decisions concerning the Army.
Fairly Senior? What the hell is that?
Who are they? Where are the names?
And to think you idiot cons complained because Kerry said foreign leaders told him such and such. Why not jump on Wolfie about this? Eh?
Oh look.... the "liberal" press isn't jumping on Wolfie about this either. Guess they just are so out to get Bush that they let Wolfowitz slide on this one but had to get Kerry.
Word to the wise- Don't go pulling double standards.


Oh and Z- just so you realize this, There are named Generals in this story. You just seemed to gloss right over them and try to tear the story apart because there is ONE unnamed general.
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:09 AM   #23
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Read your own article Bumble, its right there, or do you just skip over the stuff that doesnt match your philosophy ?

'Some good signals'
The top U.S. commander in the war also said he strongly disagrees with the view that the United States is heading toward defeat in Iraq. "We are not losing, militarily," Army Gen. John P. Abizaid said in an interview Friday. He said that the U.S. military is winning tactically. But he stopped short of being as positive about the overall trend. Rather, he said, "strategically, I think there are opportunities."

The prisoner abuse scandal and the continuing car bombings and U.S. casualties "create the image of a military that's not being effective in the counterinsurgency," he said. But in reality, "the truth of the matter is . . . there are some good signals out there."

Abizaid cited the resumption of economic reconstruction and the political progress made with Sunni Muslims in resolving the standoff around Fallujah, and increasing cooperation from Shiite Muslims in isolating radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr. "I'm looking at the situation, and I told the secretary of defense the other day, I feel pretty comfortable with where we are," he said.

Commanders on the ground in Iraq seconded that cautiously optimistic view.

"I am sure that the view from Washington is much worse than it appears on the ground here in Baqubah," said Army Col. Dana J.H. Pittard, commander of a 1st Infantry Division brigade based in that city about 40 miles north of Baghdad

Army Lt. Col. John Kem, a battalion commander in Baghdad, said that the events of the past two months -- first the eruption of a Shiite insurgency, followed by the detainee abuse scandal -- "certainly made things harder," but he said he doubted they would have much effect on the long-term future of Iraq.



Holy shit positives from commanders on the ground ! Omg we wouldnt want to be optomistic now would we Bumble ?

Sure there are negatives but there are also positives but you sure like to totally miss any mention of them even in articles you are using to further your pessimistic view.
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:11 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Zolmaz
Your post is nothing but propaganda.
Quote of the year.
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:12 AM   #25
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Very simple, lets divide Iraq in two, and make them the 51st and 52nd states of the United States!!!!
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