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Old 05-08-2004, 02:46 AM   #1
Laoke
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Question About a year ago...

About a year ago, Zolmaz and I agreed to revisit the issue of WMD in Iraq around this time - I might be mistaken, I might have offered to wait for the full 10 years Saddam had to hide the damn things in the first place.

My contention was the fact that they hadn't been found was serious enough call into question the justification for the invasion of Iraq. Not because I disagree with it persay, and certainly not because I can do anything about it - lets face it, the US is the proverbible 500 pound gorilla.

But because the reason given to the rest of the world to justify, morally, the invasion of Iraq was to prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Oh, sure, a brutal moustache was removed from power. But the question is this

Is the world a safer place for the citizens of the USA now? Or, indeed, if we take into account the fine humanitarian reasons for the invasion of Iraq - is the world a safer place for the citizens of Iraq? Do you feel that the invasion of Iraq has stopped the spread of weapons of mass destruction into the hands of terrorists?
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Old 05-08-2004, 03:55 AM   #2
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Is the world a safer place for the citizens of the USA now?
Yes.

is the world a safer place for the citizens of Iraq?
Yes.

Do you feel that the invasion of Iraq has stopped the spread of weapons of mass destruction into the hands of terrorists?
Yes.
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Old 05-08-2004, 09:37 AM   #3
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Glad that the Citizens of the US feel safer anyway.

Here in Britain we just had the IRA to worry about. Now we're bracing ourselves for attacks from Al Queida and other extremists too. Something that wouldn't have been a problem a few years ago

Last edited by Xanthaar; 05-08-2004 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 05-08-2004, 11:51 AM   #4
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Now we're bracing ourselves for attacks from Al Queida and other extremists too. Something that wouldn't have been a problem a few years ago
Say no more.

It only takes one more attack on American soil to prove that Bush has opened up the desire to attack us even more than before. That one attack will be a total of two more on his watch than anybody else's.
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Old 05-08-2004, 12:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
Say no more.

It only takes one more attack on American soil to prove that Bush has opened up the desire to attack us even more than before. That one attack will be a total of two more on his watch than anybody else's.
I do think that going into Iraq the way you did massively harmed the war on terror, that was the main reason why I was so against it.

But I don't think it takes another attack on US soil to prove that is the case, indeed I don't think that it would. I should also point out that there has been foreign terrorist attacks inside the US before, so it wouldn't be two more that anyone else.

I also don't think that here in the UK, post 9/11 but before the Iraq war, we just hat to worry about the IRA. But again, I do think we and others are very much more likely to suffer an attack after the way Iraq was handled.
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Old 05-08-2004, 02:13 PM   #6
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I would agree that the UK is certainly more at risk from an 'arab' terror attack that we were a few years ago. But I think it is not soley down to our participation in the attack and subsequent occupation of Iraq.

We made ourselves a target by doing the right thing, trying to get to Osama Bin Laden.

But when you have the head of our police force making comments like "It isn't a question of if Al Queida attack the UK, but when", it is worrying.
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Old 05-09-2004, 03:10 AM   #7
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They have to say that to cover their butts. It's virtually impossible to stop someone who is willing to give their life in an attack.

After dealing with IRA terrorism for 25 years, the UK - and London in particular is quite well geared up, but still far from impenetrable. I can't see many other cities in the world that have almost total 24x7 camera coverage with automatic vehicle number plate recognition etc.
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Old 05-09-2004, 04:40 AM   #8
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Trith .. Yes/Yes/Yes makes me laugh.

just take a look at the situation... its not safer.

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Old 05-09-2004, 05:27 AM   #9
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Glad that the Citizens of the US feel safer anyway.

Here in Britain we just had the IRA to worry about. Now we're bracing ourselves for attacks from Al Queida and other extremists too. Something that wouldn't have been a problem a few years ago
Uh , dont put all the blame on us, the Uk has their own Iraqi torture scandal to deal with.

The UK has their own government, we didnt force them to invade Iraq with us.

The UK has their own intelligence bureau, along with other countries and they all came up with the same results. Everyone (including the UK) believed Iraq had WMD. Although now that we still havent found any, those same people are starting to rewrite history to cover their asses (in this i include our own government).

So you euros, what would have been your plan on handling Iraq? Wait another 12 years playing games with UN inspectors and inspections until one bright day a mushroom cloud appeared in the Thames? You realize Iraq would more than likely have nuked one of you before he tried to send one over here.
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Old 05-09-2004, 05:53 AM   #10
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Where did anyone blame the US?!

The UK brought this situation on itself by doing the right thing and going after Osama Bin Laden. As I stated.

Where did I say this is because of Iraq? If you want to read things into my posts that simply aren't there, there isn't much I can about that Chuk *shrug*

Edit: And I'm aware of the accusations of UK troops torturing Iraqi Prisoners also. You'll find an article I posted regarding this about a week or so ago in another thread.
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Old 05-09-2004, 05:57 AM   #11
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Read your first line

Glad that the Citizens of the US feel safer anyway.
Then

Here in Britain we just had the IRA to worry about. Now we're bracing ourselves for attacks from Al Queida and other extremists too. Something that wouldn't have been a problem a few years ago
It looks like you were insinuating that we used and dragged the UK along in order to make only us safer.

The logic you use that somehow the UK would be safer if you hadnt helped fight the war on terror is false. You dont just stick your head in the sand and hope the bad man goes away. He wouldnt have gone away unless somehting was done.
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Old 05-09-2004, 06:05 AM   #12
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I cannot help the way you choose to read it. I do not make implications. Doing it on a message board leaves it too open to be mis-understood.

If I wanted to blame the US. I would have stated it very clearly. The fact is, the guilty party in this is Al Queida. No one else.

The logic you use that somehow the UK would be safer if you hadn't helped fight the war on terror is false.
Before the war in Afghanistan, Al Queida hadn't ever attacked UK targets. Why would they change tactics? This isn't a loaded question. I'm genuinely interested in peoples view.
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Old 05-09-2004, 06:38 AM   #13
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Before the war in Afghanistan, Al Queida hadn't ever attacked UK targets. Why would they change tactics? This isn't a loaded question. I'm genuinely interested in peoples view.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114348,00.html

An Islamic terrorist group linked with Al Qaeda has already threatened France with terrorist attacks becuase of some stupid law they passed over muslim women wearing scarves. This is not a USA problem these guys are running a global terrorist network that uses the islamic religion as an excuse for these terrorist acts on anyone and everyone. Who is to say the UK or one of the other Euro countries wont piss off Al Qaeda all on their own like France did?
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:42 AM   #14
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Thanks for posting that Chuk.

I'd seen reports on TV about the bombs planted on the French railway lines. The group responsable for those was demanding money, so I just dismissed that as gangsters basically trying to capitilise on the current climate and extort money through terror.

However, I didn't know about the The head-scarf related threat France received. That is worrying. The ban isn't even targeted at Islamics; it's a blanket ban related to all religious symbols regardless of race or culture.

With this going on, I point back at my first post - I certainly don't feel safer!

But that's certainly opened my eyes to how easilly these lunatics are provoked. I have to admit that I've always (perhaps naively) held the opinion that Al Qaeda hated solely hated the US and it's allies. It made sense to me, that they would concentrate their 'war efforts' on those targets alone.

But if they'll threaten to attack you over wearing a head-scarf, what won't they stop at?

It's certainly given me something to think over...
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:50 AM   #15
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That one attack will be a total of two more on his watch than anybody else's.
Serious question: do you honestly believe that if Gore had been elected that 9/11 wouldn't have happened?
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:27 AM   #16
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Fair question Wildane.

I think the attacks would have been attempted/planned still and possibly carried out in the same fashion. However, we have no way of knowing if Gore would have done more to act on the intelligence, so it's sort of a moot point. The fact of the matter is Bush handled it how he handled it and so that's all we can really analyze.

With regard to 9/11 investigation I'm not out to get Bush- I want to know how we could do better in the future. If that involves exposing Bush administration (or Clinton administration) fuckups, then so be it.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:34 AM   #17
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Poor, hateful Bumble seems to forget WTC I that happened on Clinton's watch. Hey Bumble get your facts straight, although I loath to do it, if you want to keep count it is 1 and 1 for Clinton v Bush and terrorist attacks on American soil.

I STILL support the war in Iraq and the countries on the UN security council that were against it were most likely getting kickbacks from the UN oil for food program. Hrrrm, ya think the leadership of those countries had incentive NOT to go in there? Somehow people seem to think of them as saintly for voting against going into Iraq. I think they are asses for being bought off by Saddam and not doing the right thing when even those countries thought WMD's to be in Iraq.

Bottom line, I cannot speak for the UK but, those that think if we just stuck our head in the sand and left it alone are sorley mistaken, those son of a bitch Islamic radicals hate the US anyway and every son of a bitch Islamic radical that dies over there to coalition forces is one less son of bitch that gets the opprotunity to come over here or any where else and try something. We have taken the war to the enemy, set the battleground where it is easier for them to get to and are killing those who would do us harm on thier turf and not ours. Are we immune from attack? Not likely. Are there less of those son of bitches around to try something? Most assuredly. Would they do it anyway even if we had not gone into Iraq? Damn skippy.


With the above said I will be the first to admit I am disappointed that WMD's were not located in Iraq.


/salute to the Brave men and women of the armed forces of all the countries in Iraq for keeping the barbarians at the gates and protecting thier respective countries and thier fellow comrades countries.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:36 AM   #18
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Agreed Horm, find the fuck ups and expose them. OMG I agreed with Horm, the world is coming to an end now.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lith
OMG I agreed with Horm, the world is coming to an end now.
Man, that's 3 or 4 of you cons at least in the past few days. One of us is slipping and I'm not sure who
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:50 AM   #20
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However, we have no way of knowing if Gore would have done more to act on the intelligence
Well, it would be ludicrous to speculate on what Gore would have done in response to 9/11, but I'm not going that far. It just looks to me like bumble is blaming Bush for 9/11 and I wanted his honest opinion. Of course, I know what his answer is going to be, but one can hope.
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