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Old 05-06-2004, 09:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Felessan
The military punishes its own..
I can't find the article I had read but one Iraqi prisoner was shot and killed last September after throwing rocks at a soldier.

The soldier was thrown out of the army for using excessive force, but didn't serve a single minute in jail.

Another victim was murdered at Abu Ghraib by a private interrogator working for the CIA. The private interrogator escaped prison because he was a contractor beyond army jurisdiction.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:19 AM   #27
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I can't find the article I had read but one Iraqi prisoner was shot and killed last September after throwing rocks at a soldier.

The soldier was thrown out of the army for using excessive force, but didn't serve a single minute in jail.
Read about that incident and it was probably brought up on this board. IMO if you throw a rock at an armed man dont expect him to slap you on the wrist in return. The rock was thrown with intent to hurt/kill the soldier, so you cant really compare the 2 issues. One response was provoked, the other was not.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:29 AM   #28
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Actually, I wasn't comparing the two incidents. I was using them as examples of how a couple of those who are guilty of murder got off scott free. One of which was an MP.

Also, throwing a rock with the intent to kill doesn't justify shooting and killing the rock thrower. A trained professional chooses when to shoot and kill. The guard could have just as easily disabled the prisoner by shooting him in the leg or arm.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:41 AM   #29
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Or maybe shoot the rock out of his hand

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Old 05-06-2004, 09:44 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Actually, I wasn't comparing the two incidents. I was using them as examples of how a couple of those who are guilty of murder got off scott free. One of which was an MP.

Also, throwing a rock with the intent to kill doesn't justify shooting and killing the rock thrower. A trained professional chooses when to shoot and kill. The guard could have just as easily disabled the prisoner by shooting him in the leg or arm.
/agree Chuk

IMO the first guy was justified. If a guy throws a rock at me in a combat zone, no way Im waiting to see if it isnt an grenade/IED...Im going to zap him and move on. Sounds cold, but if you havent had your heart in your throat as people are trying to hurt you...it's a bit harder to understand.

The other guy...well, I daresay all the information is probably not known. As far as that goes, we were talking about military. Seconded to an intelligence service doeesnt qualify. The rules get blurry there.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:45 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by chukzombi
Or maybe shoot the rock out of his hand


Hehe...I agreed with your first comment. This one is a bit harder to justify, lol. I know you were kidding, just clarifying.

/salute Chuk
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Also, throwing a rock with the intent to kill doesn't justify shooting and killing the rock thrower. A trained professional chooses when to shoot and kill. The guard could have just as easily disabled the prisoner by shooting him in the leg or arm.
Also...

In a combat zone where people (combatants) are constantly striving to hurt you, this "proffessional" decided to shoot and kill to negate the threat. You dont see too many "old soldiers" who get in the habit of disabling the enemy. They tend to get weeded out quick.

In a Law Enforcement exercise Ill buy your argument, as there is a distinct difference in threat. With this location/scenario in mind Ill stand by my own.

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Old 05-06-2004, 09:52 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Felessan
/If a guy throws a rock at me in a combat zone, no way Im waiting to see if it isnt an grenade/IED...Im going to zap him and move on.
The guy was a prisoner in a jail. Where would he get a grenade or explosive device?
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:54 AM   #34
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Well I guess I should have read the post. Shame on me.


On the other hand, in a Jail the dumbass should have known better. Still dead.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:55 AM   #35
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If a guy throws a rock at me in a combat zone
Considering most insurgents have ready access to weapons. I can't for the life of me see where someone throwing a rock at an armed soldier expects to kill that soldier. Even a Nolan Ryan rockball would be hard pressed to kill you on one toss. 98 mph on a rock simply doesn't kill too easily. It may hurt like hell, but its not going to kill too many people.
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Old 05-06-2004, 10:00 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
Considering most insurgents have ready access to weapons. I can't for the life of me see where someone throwing a rock at an armed soldier expects to kill that soldier. Even a Nolan Ryan rockball would be hard pressed to kill you on one toss. 98 mph on a rock simply doesn't kill too easily. It may hurt like hell, but its not going to kill too many people.

You forgot to add the rest of that quote, Bumble. The premise was I wouldnt wait to ascertain wether or not the rock was indeed a rock or an IED/Grenade. I too, would have tapped him twice and continued on.

However, as Lurikeen clarified for me...this did happen in a confinement facility. Yes the knucklehead should have known better, but he probably should have been shot in the leg.
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Old 05-06-2004, 10:15 AM   #37
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A rock can cause serious injury to your head and maybe even kill. The soldier reacted to it and maybe it was over the line but the Iraqi had to expect some response. Ill leave it up to Vincent and Jules.

Vincent Vega: Anton probably didn't expect Marsellus to react the way he did, but he had to expect a reaction.

Jules Winnfield: It was a foot massage. A foot massage is nothing. I give my mother a foot massage.

Vincent Vega: It's laying your hands in a familiar way on Marsellus' new wife. Is it as bad as eating her pussy out? No, but it's the same fucking ballpark.

Jules Winnfield: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop right there. Eating the bitch out and giving the bitch a foot massage ain't even the same fucking thing.

Vincent Vega: It's not. It's the same ballpark.

Jules Winnfield: Ain't no fucking ballpark neither. Now look, maybe your method of massage differs from mine, but you know, touchin' his wife's feet and sticking your tongue and the holiest of holies ain't "the same fucking ballpark." It ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fucking sport. Look, foot massages don't mean shit.

VINCENT: I'm not sayin' he was right, but you're sayin' a foot massage don't mean nothing, and I'm sayin' it does. I've given a million ladies a million foot massages and they all meant somethin'. We act like they don't, but they do. That's what's so fuckin' cool about 'em. This sensual thing's goin' on that nobody's talkin about, but you know it and she knows it, fuckin' Marsellus knew it, and Antwan shoulda known fuckin' better. That's his fuckin' wife, man. He ain't gonna have a sense of humor about that shit.
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Old 05-06-2004, 10:23 AM   #38
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Classic, Chuk.
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Old 05-06-2004, 10:27 AM   #39
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Head trauma is for real: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=155424

The rock to the head stuff made me think of this link.

As to the prison incident, I don't think the soldier should have used deliberate deadly force necessarily, but I have no problem with the prisoner getting shot if he was assaulting guards with a deadly weapon (which a rock is). A taser or other non-lethal system seems to me to be a more appropriate pacification device however, but I'm neither a soldier nor a prison expert so I could be wrong.
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Old 05-06-2004, 11:03 AM   #40
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There is a big difference between condemning an act or condemning an entire country for that act. The middle eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran , Iraq are condemning the US as a whole. No civilized country (including the US) who doesnt already have an axe to grind against the US is doing this.
I completely agree, and my choice of words did not make it particularly clear. I'm suprised that (even) those countries are blaming the US as a whole. I've read several reports from various arabic news agenices in response to this issue. They are generally scathing of the current US administration and disbelieving of their stated intentions; but I have not seen any related condemnation of the US people as a whole. You can read a few here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3689129.stm

As for handing over any guilty soldiers to the Iraqies, of course it wouldn't happen. I was highlighting the different standards that we apply.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Felessan
The military punishes its own.
Kinda like these guys got punished? I think you'll have to accept a certain amount of Mid-East flavoured disbelief when it comes to reassurances of punishment.

PS: Janis Karpinski needs to be court martialled for gross incompetence in overseeing a command.
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Old 05-07-2004, 02:18 AM   #42
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Shooting a person for throwing a rock at you is AGAINST the ROE(rules of engagement). Without going too much into detail there is no way in hell you can/should shoot anyone for rock throwing.
and if it really were a grenade you would not have been able to shoot for you had ben dead.
He had to know it was a, unless he just shoot him before he threw it.
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Old 05-07-2004, 05:22 AM   #43
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That incident in Italy, while tragic, was an accident. Nowhere near in the same category as this.

Ramesses...

It is indeed against the ROE...however, Ill be damned if I wait to see what it is. Also, in my experience...myself w/ squad would evade the "rock" and return fire negating the threat. This would take less than 2-3 seconds. By the time we determine what the missle was...the potential threat would be a memory. Wrong? Possibly, but myself and my team would move out intact. I know you know what I mean here, and no offense is intended. Some here may not understand, but I know you do. Watch your ass, Bro.

As this apparently took place in a confinement facility, the point is moot. The guy should have been hammered for killing a prisoner without justification.
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Old 05-07-2004, 05:51 AM   #44
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Fel, you're talking about something thrown at you in combat, this was in a prison. The point about the Italian crash was that the US grabbed those two airmen and they were back in the US before the Italians could sneeze. After they had them safely out of the country it was whitewashed. Different tradegy, still a lack of accountability.
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Old 05-07-2004, 05:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Felessan
As this apparently took place in a confinement facility, the point is moot. The guy should have been hammered for killing a prisoner without justification.
As I stated above, I acknowledged this point...it is moot. My justification was for my earlier impression of it being in a patrol zone.

I too was suprised how fast the aircrew was removed from the country. Not suprised it happened, but the speed they did it. They should never have left until the investigation was complete.

I think they were removed from flight status and their careers finished over this. Not sure of any other penalties, but from what I know of the inciddent it was an accident. No jail time necessary. Again, not real familiar with all the facts on it. Was a shame though.
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Old 05-07-2004, 06:11 AM   #46
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They were joyriding and specifically breaking a whole series of regs regarding flight speed and flight altitude and flight path. They should have been jailed for manslaughter. You kill 20 people and no jail time is necessary?? Whoa.

If I run down someone in my car I'm headed for jail on manslaughter charges, same thing.
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Old 05-07-2004, 06:53 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Zaniel
They were joyriding and specifically breaking a whole series of regs regarding flight speed and flight altitude and flight path. They should have been jailed for manslaughter. You kill 20 people and no jail time is necessary?? Whoa.

If I run down someone in my car I'm headed for jail on manslaughter charges, same thing.

Well within the confines of that information, I agree...at least the pilot for sure. I thought they were on a training mission. The AC was an A-6...they have to fly low to train as that is there Real World Mission. Again not sure on all the details. If I have the time Ill snoop a bit.
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Old 05-07-2004, 01:53 PM   #48
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Got some querying to put ya's after reading this:
Lurikeen said - "Another victim was murdered at Abu Ghraib by a private interrogator working for the CIA. The private interrogator escaped prison because he was a contractor beyond army jurisdiction."
What I'm thinking is this, if the civvy is in a militarised zone (or military establishment like Guantanomo) and his brief is a military one why aint he subject to martial law for the offense of a capital crime? Surely this body is not immune entirely from all prosecution especially against charges as serious as murder. "A crime is a crime is a crime..."

Arab women throwing rocks or busting their van thru roadblocks aint soldiers either. They are killed though.
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Old 05-08-2004, 03:37 AM   #49
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Felessan:

Totally agree with you friend, but I was refering to the fact that it was in a prison.

Had in been on patrol I agree with you, better be safe and eliminate the threat than having to lose a squad member.
And no offense taken.
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Old 05-08-2004, 06:10 AM   #50
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You forgot to add the rest of that quote, Bumble. The premise was I wouldnt wait to ascertain wether or not the rock was indeed a rock or an IED/Grenade
Until you can start picking up grenades off of the ground this is highly unlikely. IT seems like you are stretching it also since grenades tend to not go too far when you toss them.
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