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Old 05-04-2004, 02:15 PM   #1
bumbleroot
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Default How to lose the war

We can lose the war in Iraq by threatening insurgents and then backing away from our threat, thus emboldening those and other insurgents. We can lose the war by treating Iraqis with the cruelty of their former regime, thus causing more Iraqis to want to fight us. We can lose the war by having untrained soldiers in Iraq trying to perform tasks they are not trained to do. We can lose the war by understaffing and underequipping our soldiers.
Oh, by the way, what is the plan on winning this war again?
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:23 PM   #2
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Agreed. It is time to admit they are the enemy, and kill them.
As ruthlessly as possible.

OR

Give it up, and leave.
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:37 PM   #3
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I could be trite and just say "The war was lost when we started it", but I won't. Or did I just do it?

At any rate, the only way to win the war in Iraq is by having the administration clearly define the terms of victory. That hasn't happened. For instance, are we now victors because Bush declared the end of major hostilities months ago? Will we truly have achieved success when the new Iraqi government is put in place by Washington?

Bush & Co., haven't specified just what will be the marking point of victory. Rather, the Bush administration has fallen to use of invocations from failed foreign policies of administrations in the past. This entire premise of bringing democracy to Iraq and "winning the hearts and minds of the common Iraqi" seems to be a badly scripted rerun of rhetoric used in Vietnam, and look where that got us!

I don't think the Bush administration has realized the defeat on the ground, yet (Although his generals seem to understand just how bad things are going). The only victory infront of us is the safe return of our troops.
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:42 PM   #4
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Turning Iraq over to a government of our choosing is not going to be deemed as Democratic amongst the Iraqis. They are the ones that have to live with that, not us. What then is our plan for winning this war?
I can't see us providing the forces necessary to win it. I can't see us trained properly to do what is needed. I can't see where we are winning the hearts of Iraqis. All I can see is blunder after blunder because someone doesn't know how to lead.
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Old 05-05-2004, 03:45 AM   #5
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Do you really believe what you write bumble ? Guess you probably do. Why dont you spend 5 minutes and look up how the interim government is being set up and by whom and then come back and makes some enlightened comments instead of spouting your ignorant drivel.
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Old 05-05-2004, 04:16 AM   #6
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This is a new enemy...as in all wars tactics have to be changed, updated, and tested. This is not a mass casualty war. We cannot go in and level the country with Armor, Air Attacks, and Infantry.

Dealing with religious zealots has historically been a problem. The days of slaughtering a whole religious sect to "quell" an uprising are no longer feasible nor appropriate. We will have to do something else. The question is...what?

Rebuilding any war-torn country is no mean task. Now complicate it with domestic politics, active insurgency attacks, a local populace turned against its "liberators", no local infrastructure, and hard line religious leaders/fanatics fanning the flames, it is damned near impossible.

The problem with dealing with guerillas, especially popular ones...is their homeland doesnt want them to be killed. So what you have now is a constant replenishing of their ranks. In reality if the local populace supports the guerilla element there will be no victory over them. They will always have hiding spots, informants, support, supplies, etc. Continued operations do nothing more than place "innocent" civilians into harms way...further distancing the people we're trying to help.

I suppport the President. I support my Brothers-in-Arms as only one who has been there and seen this. I support the CoC. But...at some point we need to start taking a hard look at our current stategy. It needs to be reassesed and evaluated (read changed).
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Old 05-05-2004, 05:01 AM   #7
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Do you really believe what you write bumble ? Guess you probably do. Why dont you spend 5 minutes and look up how the interim government is being set up and by whom and then come back and makes some enlightened comments instead of spouting your ignorant drivel.
How ignorant you are. I understand the UN is helping establish an interim government, but this is not of the people's choice. The Sunnis want control as do the Shiites. The problem on July 1st is that we will still have control. That is not what the Iraqis want.
I suggest that rather than doing this fast for purposes of getting elected only, we do it right, because we have a greater stake in it. The June 30th date is fabricated only for reasons to re-elect Bush and that is a mistake. It does a disservice to the effort and in effect has and will continue to actually cost American lives. All at the expense of Bush's personal desires.
I suggest that we realize, Democracy in Iraq will not be of our making, but of theirs. We need to let them choose their course, not us. Lakhdar Brahimi is good at what he does, but he is not what Iraqis want there. They want autonomy and they want to not have a government pushed down their throats. They just had a government pushed down their throats for some 30 years or so, they don't want another.
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Old 05-05-2004, 05:01 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
We can lose the war by having untrained soldiers in Iraq trying to perform tasks they are not trained to do. We can lose the war by understaffing and underequipping our soldiers.
What did you mean by having untrained soldiers perfroming tasks they are not trained for?

As far as, underequipping/staffing...this has happened in every war this century. Not a pretty thing, but a reality.

3MEU hit Iraq with a hodgepodge of radios, and in alot of cases were conducting combat ops and corrdinating movement/assaults via Cell (Iridium) Phones. There just wasnt the Commo needed available in the quantities necessary. Their command vehicles were typically arranged with an assortment of radios duct taped to any flat surface. Welcome to the 21'st century.

I won't even get into Body Armor, Supplies, etc. I know when I deploy I go with everything I think I will possibly need...cant depend on anyone else. Everything from TP to batteries. Ive known folks who brought their own sidearms/ammunition. Always plenty of 556/762. Its the damned pistol ammo that is hard to come by, lol.

When a unit mobilizes...they hope their Logistical lines can keep up. Its the key to success. Unfortunately the enemy knows this too, and will do everything in their power to breach it.

I only even bring this up, as most folks dont really know what is involved in a mass unit mobilization for war. It is at best, restrained chaos.
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Old 05-05-2004, 05:04 AM   #9
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I agree Bumble...

The problem is we cannot turn over control, until there is stability in the region. If we up and left now...there would be civil war. We do need to be careful, but you're correct let them choose their path.
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:24 AM   #10
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What did you mean by having untrained soldiers perfroming tasks they are not trained for?
We have soldiers trying to translate and act as negotiators. We have soldiers trying to do intelligence work. We have soldiers doing tasks that we aren't trained for because we had no idea of the cultural differences. As an example that stands out, we had soldiers running inerrogations and they are not trained to do those. If we are going to win the war, stop putting all of these tasks on the backs of reservists. We need to get the right people in there, bear the cost and win the damned things. My guess is we don't want to bear the cost because it is election year suicide. I say screw the election year stuff, the object is to win not to get re-elected.
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:28 AM   #11
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Bumbleroot, you should listen to Felessan. He actually has first hand knowledge of whats going on in Iraq.

/ponder....wonder why I skip over every post and only read what he has to say??
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:28 AM   #12
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Serious question, but how do you know what they are and are not trained for?
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:29 AM   #13
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If a few more poiliticians would do as you suggest Bum and do the right thing instead of worrying about getting elected, things might be better. But I doubt it since those people would not get elected in the first place or if they did, they would seldom get to serve another term because they would chose right over convenience.
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:42 AM   #14
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Bumbleroot, you should listen to Felessan. He actually has first hand knowledge of whats going on in Iraq.
Not that I'm making this stuff up. I repeat what I heard from listening to soldiers who were over there saying these same things. So I guess I can listen to him and I can listen to the soldiers saying the same things.
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:05 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
How ignorant you are. I understand the UN is helping establish an interim government, but this is not of the people's choice. The Sunnis want control as do the Shiites. The problem on July 1st is that we will still have control. That is not what the Iraqis want.
I suggest that rather than doing this fast for purposes of getting elected only, we do it right, because we have a greater stake in it. The June 30th date is fabricated only for reasons to re-elect Bush and that is a mistake. It does a disservice to the effort and in effect has and will continue to actually cost American lives. All at the expense of Bush's personal desires.
I suggest that we realize, Democracy in Iraq will not be of our making, but of theirs. We need to let them choose their course, not us. Lakhdar Brahimi is good at what he does, but he is not what Iraqis want there. They want autonomy and they want to not have a government pushed down their throats. They just had a government pushed down their throats for some 30 years or so, they don't want another.
Well if you bothered to look it up, they will have a government by the people for the people in approximately 7 months after the interim government takes control june 30th. They will have a constitution written for them by elected representitives of all areas of Iraqi society including a minimum of 25 percent women. Try doing some research sometime bumble, you might become more enlightened.

Oh hell I know you are too lazy, here ya go:

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:09 AM   #16
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I repeat what I heard
So you're admitting it's all hearsay?
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:49 AM   #17
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So you're admitting it's all hearsay?
First you cons emplore us to listen to the soldiers. Then you say we are wrong for listening. Make up your minds.
It is hearsay. I listen, I repeat. Everything on these boards is hearsay for the most part.


Well if you bothered to look it up, they will have a government by the people for the people in approximately 7 months after the interim government takes control june 30th.
Unfortunately the CPA has absolutely no credibility with Iraqis. So to assume that Chalabi is going to set up Iraqis government is pretty much dead wrong. It has to involve something other than the CPA. Something like the people. The problem is that the Iraqis need to be involved in this, not the CPA.
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:50 AM   #18
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Who said I'm a con? Bumble, you're kinda grasping at straws here, I never told you to listen to anyone or commit hearsay.... you've got the wrong girl.
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Old 05-05-2004, 09:04 AM   #19
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Forgive me. I would have no reason to believe that you are not a con based upon your limited postings. If I am wrong I apologize.
However, the argument still remains. One person asking me to listen, the other asking me not to. One must be wrong, one must not. Both can not be right. I can not do both of those things.
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Old 05-05-2004, 09:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
We have soldiers trying to translate and act as negotiators. We have soldiers trying to do intelligence work. We have soldiers doing tasks that we aren't trained for because we had no idea of the cultural differences. As an example that stands out, we had soldiers running inerrogations and they are not trained to do those. If we are going to win the war, stop putting all of these tasks on the backs of reservists. We need to get the right people in there, bear the cost and win the damned things. My guess is we don't want to bear the cost because it is election year suicide. I say screw the election year stuff, the object is to win not to get re-elected.
In my experience the soldiers on the ground, acting as interperators, are formally trained at the Presidio in CA. They usually already have a background in Farsi, and are usually fairly well equipped to handle the job.

Intel Soldiers are their own MOS...however this is the Army. In a forward environment, they will get their orders from the CoC, salute sharply, about face and press. In the field you dont always have the luxury of the right person at the right time...sometimes they just have to be good enough.

Soldiers running interrogations....usually these are 11B's on the ground trying to get immediate intel on enemy activity in the local AO. Real interrogation is done in the rear by the Intel folks and CID. Utilize the 5s's and move them out.

Reservists are fulfilling their duty to their country. They have alwys been there when called and they're being utilized to their fullest potential. Keep in mind the DoD has a role for the Reserve and this has been damned near the same job since WWII. Admittedly they are on extended duty, but so are the Active folks. They can suck it up, like the rest of us.

As far as getting it done. Within the constraints applied to the forces in country I think they are doing a decent job.

The focus of our efforts needs to shift to either full on occupation/martial law or evac. Simple as that.
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Old 05-05-2004, 09:18 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
First you cons emplore us to listen to the soldiers. Then you say we are wrong for listening. Make up your minds.
It is hearsay. I listen, I repeat. Everything on these boards is hearsay for the most part.



Unfortunately the CPA has absolutely no credibility with Iraqis. So to assume that Chalabi is going to set up Iraqis government is pretty much dead wrong. It has to involve something other than the CPA. Something like the people. The problem is that the Iraqis need to be involved in this, not the CPA.
Could you pull some facts, hell even quotes that say the CPA has no credibility? It is the authority there, it will be passing its authority to the Interim government which will in turn set up popular elections. You have a better idea ? Or any idea besides your incredibly insightful commentary that you pull out of thin air ?
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:16 AM   #22
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Sure can oh doubting one....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...q-findings.htm
#19- 25% of Iraqis say CPAs preformance has been somewhat good or better, 42% say somewhat bad or worse, the rest are neutral.

Take a look at the Iraqi perception of what is happening in their country. It sure is a different picture than Georgie Boy is painting.
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