Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2004, 11:26 AM   #76
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,895
I'd give him credit for flexibility- I can touch my fingers to my toes, but my lips? That's impressive.

Wouldn't surprise me though- he's shown numerous times his ability to bow down and kiss his own ass
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | Æsöp | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | Æölï
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 11:40 AM   #77
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Wildane
Please, who are you kidding? He could bow down and kiss the feet of every single Iraqi and you still wouldn't give him any credit.
Wildane, I have given Bush credit where I think it is deserved. Surely, you have been on this board long enough to read those quite infrequent posts of mine?

What I don't understand is why he can't say "sorry" to the Iraqi people and to Americans, but he can tell a story at the Rose Garden of how he said sorry to the King of Jordon?
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." —Monty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 12:33 PM   #78
Caelie123
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,027
I guess I see it different than some of you guys because I don't think Bush owed anybody an apology.

What in the hell did he do? Him saying it would be investigated and the guilty parties punished should have been enough.
__________________
Caelie
65 Human Cleric
Caelie123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 12:40 PM   #79
Felessan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,005
Originally Posted by Caelie123
What in the hell did he do? Him saying it would be investigated and the guilty parties punished should have been enough.
Exactly.
__________________
Felessan Oakhallow
Ginsu Stalker of Anlah 'Shok
Retired

"The things we do in life, echo in eternity!"
Felessan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 12:48 PM   #80
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Caelie123
I guess I see it different than some of you guys because I don't think Bush owed anybody an apology.

What in the hell did he do? Him saying it would be investigated and the guilty parties punished should have been enough.
The incidents of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners have become an international scandal, because of the level and severity of the scandal it is the responsibility of the sitting president to not just make a statement of outrage, but to apologize to both the Iraqi people and the American people for the actions of those ultimately under his command.

However, the scandal of mistreatment is not the point I was making. The point is that there is a pattern of the Bush administration making stupid mistakes, and reversing course with no explanations given to the people. This is an administration that can't say "sorry" to the people who should get the apology and just continues on... that is disasterous policy and will just cause deeper problems in the future.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." —Monty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:03 PM   #81
Alauradana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,460
Ouch Luri, Bush just apologized.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html
Alauradana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:05 PM   #82
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Alauradana

You probably missed the point I made earlier so I will just cut and paste it in...

That is not an apology to the people of Iraq or to Americans. However, at least he said "sorry" to an Arab.

BTW, I do hope he does apologize. That would be the right thing to do. (No pun intended)
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." —Monty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:20 PM   #83
Alauradana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,460
Luri, I disagree with the whole apology thing. The commander was the one who apologized, he was the one who should have. There is no way the president of the United States can be aware if six soldiers in a prison in Iraq have committed atrocities. The commander was the one who should have been ensuring things were going smoothly. We are talking about the actions of a few soldiers--am I sorry? No. Is it my fault? No. Did Bush cause that? No.

You want Bush to be humble so the Arabs will like us. Guess what? They hate us. Bush apologizing isnt' going to change that. Have we had one apology from the Arab world regarding the Americans who were murdered, mutiliated, burned and hung? Who apologized for 9/11? Under your premise, six soldiers did something wrong so all of America should apologize (under Bush) so being as Arabs from around the world are in Al Queda shouldn't all Arab nations apologize for their actions and 9/11?
Alauradana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:23 PM   #84
Caelie123
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,027
The incidents of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners have become an international scandal, because of the level and severity of the scandal it is the responsibility of the sitting president to not just make a statement of outrage, but to apologize to both the Iraqi people and the American people for the actions of those ultimately under his command
Who says it is the responsibility of the sitting president to apologize. I have apologized at one time or another for something my kids might have done years ago, but it was because I felt it was the thing to do. Not because it was my responsibility.
__________________
Caelie
65 Human Cleric
Caelie123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:29 PM   #85
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
I disagree that the apology should be left at the commander level. This entire scandal has become an international incident. That means Bush needs to be the one saying he is sorry to the Iraqi people AND to America.

I agree with you and understand that the Arabs will hate us no matter what. Their level of hate almost rises to the same level of hate Democrats have for Bush... so I... will now be crucified. Just kidding about the "level of hate Democrats" remark.

The apology is a formality. It is a sign of good faith for all the world. It is not an admitance to failure, per se. It would be a small gesture towards restoring faith in America amongst others in the world who are currently our friends and to those sitting on the fence.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." —Monty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:33 PM   #86
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
I'm still not convinced it's the President's responsibility either. Sure, it would be a nice gesture for him to do, but necessary? I don't think so.

In going with the "boss" theme, let me give you another scenario. Say Bush is the manager of a Wal-Mart somewhere. Now, in the stock room, there is an employee who has been selling drugs to people that come up to the backdoor. Now, should one of these kids OD, is it the manager's responsibility to apologize to his family?
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 01:34 PM   #87
Alauradana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,460
Yes, but under that premise Luri, shouldn't the Arab world be apologizing to us for the terrorist acts we have endured? For the people we have lost? Surely it wasn't ALL Arabs, but it was Arabs; you know that no Arab leader is going to apologize for that--it isn't like they forced Al Queda to attack, the same way GWB didn't force those soldiers to do that. The commander apologized, that was appropriate. It is total hypocrisy for the people who are killing us to demand apologies for things that are no where on the scale near the atrocities they are inflicting on our people. It would be the same as coming up to me and stabbing me, then I slap your face and you demand I apologize. Please don't misconstrue this to say that I approve of the actions of those soldiers. The whole sexual nature of the abuse just shows perversion on the part of them and they are just a bunch of sickos. I just don't feel Bush should apologize over it.
Alauradana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 02:07 PM   #88
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,040
Lurikeen,
You should apologize also. Your an American.
We should all hold a national day of apology and bow to the east.
And we should all send our paychecks to those poor naked men.

Let's see. hmm. Oh yea, and we should instantly become a muslim nation
and have clerics come in to run our lives. Yea. then we can have public
stonings and drag christians behind cars down the freeways.
While we have freeways. And all women must wear burkas.

Oh Boy that sounds like fun fun fun.




God Bless America
Zolmaz.
Zolmaz Zo'Boto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 02:38 PM   #89
Xanthaar
Toon Army
 
Xanthaar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Washington, United Kingdom
Posts: 234
Personally I don't think it was necessary for Bush to apologise per se; a public statement condemning the abuse of the Iraq prisoners and assurances that the culprits will be dealt with, would have sufficed IMHO.

I think it was decent of him to apologise like he has though; credit where it's due. But I don't think it will do much good in Iraq, sadly. The damage has already been done.
Xanthaar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 03:02 PM   #90
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,040
The only outrage here is the media for plastering these photo's all
day every day. Who the hell is releasing these pics anyway?

I blame the media for embarassing the prisoners. Not Bush.



Z..
Zolmaz Zo'Boto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 03:20 PM   #91
Lurikeen
Freaky
 
Lurikeen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,873
Originally Posted by Alauradana
Yes, but under that premise Luri, shouldn't the Arab world be apologizing to us for the terrorist acts we have endured?
The Arab world? Why? They are not all the same "country". Besides, I think America should endeavor to be the best when at all possible. Most Americans are better than the asshats who tortured those prisoners. Again, an apology from the highest office in the land would go far in showing how strong we really are, I think.

Originally Posted by Alauradana
It is total hypocrisy for the people who are killing us to demand apologies for things that are no where on the scale near the atrocities they are inflicting on our people.
Honestly, I don't care if the people killing our soldiers want an apology or not. I just think now is a perfect opportunity for Bush to show that we are truly a generous nation and that we can do more.

Also, I think this is just one incident in a pattern of many that demonstrates how the Bush administration can't own up to mistakes. Take not finding WMD for instance, the Bush administration didn't come out and say they were wrong. Bush presented the case for war, he should be the one saying "sorry we screwed up"; instead, he blamed Tennet.

I think Bush could be more effective if he was a "the buck stops here" sort of President, but he isn't. For him the buck stops on a cabinent member and I don't think I am being overly unfair in that assesment.

Originally Posted by Wildane
Say Bush is the manager of a Wal-Mart somewhere. Now, in the stock room, there is an employee who has been selling drugs to people that come up to the backdoor. Now, should one of these kids OD, is it the manager's responsibility to apologize to his family?
I would say it is the managers responsibility to offer an apology. Afterall, the employee was selling drugs under his watch. The manager is at fault to some degree.
__________________
"All I said was... that bit of halibut is good enough for Jehovah." —Monty Python's "Life of Brian"
Lurikeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 03:52 PM   #92
Alauradana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,460
"I think this is just one incident in a pattern of many that demonstrates how the Bush administration can't own up to mistakes. Take not finding WMD for instance, the Bush administration didn't come out and say they were wrong. Bush presented the case for war, he should be the one saying "sorry we screwed up"; instead, he blamed Tennet."



How is this showing the Bush administration made a mistake? What--Bush made a mistake when he humiliated those prisoners? I'm sorry, I didn't think he was the one who did it. Please post the proof (sarcasm here).

Also, why should Bush apologize for the WMDS? Saddam should, he was the one who 1) hid them well or 2) lied about them--that wasn't Bush's fault, Saddam did his best to present the appearance of a threat--he rather bluffed and got called on it, or those WMDS are in Syria, or buried somewhere. What is to apologize for? If you pretend to have a gun do you think the police are at fault if they shoot you? Same premise. He was told to come clean and let us inspect, he didn't, he paid the price. There is no reason for the president to apologize because citizens of his own country choose to believe Saddam than to believe him. Bush did nothing wrong. If Gore were in and he did nothing after Saddam repeatedly violated the UN mandates, I would have been extremely mad that we had a wuss for a president.
Alauradana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 10:32 PM   #93
Xanthaar
Toon Army
 
Xanthaar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Washington, United Kingdom
Posts: 234
The only outrage here is the media for plastering these photo's all
day every day. Who the hell is releasing these pics anyway?

I blame the media for embarassing the prisoners. Not Bush.
Was it 'the media' that forced Iraqi prisoners to remain naked for days?

Did 'the media' physically and mentally abuse Iraqi prisoners?

No, of course not. So why try to shift the blame?

As long as incidents like this happen and keep happening, the media is going to report them.

Bottom line is, the soldiers who did this were in the wrong. The ultimate responsability lies with them for their own actions. The only 'outrage' is that these atrocities happened and were allowed to happen in the first place.

You complain that the media releases these photos and brings these incidents to the attention of the public. Would you prefer the alternative; that these little mishaps are swept under the rug and nothing gets done?

And yet there was little or no complaint when the media was showing footage for days of jubilant Iraqi's when Saddam was toppled.

You can't have it both ways.
Xanthaar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 11:10 PM   #94
Zaniel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 357
Originally Posted by Alauradana
Also, why should Bush apologize for the WMDS? Saddam should, he was the one who 1) hid them well or 2) lied about them--that wasn't Bush's fault, Saddam did his best to present the appearance of a threat--he rather bluffed and got called on it, or those WMDS are in Syria, or buried somewhere. What is to apologize for? If you pretend to have a gun do you think the police are at fault if they shoot you? Same premise. He was told to come clean and let us inspect, he didn't, he paid the price.
Jesus, that is just priceless comedy, talk about your selective memory.

He didn't pretend to have WMDs you tard. They said "No we don't have any", guess what Einstein, looks like they told the truth. Even your own admin has given up peddling this, stop playing Sisyphus.

How about this, I believe that you're guilty of murder somehow, somewhere and unless you can prove to me you never murdered anyone I'm afraid it's Rykers for you.
__________________
Zaniel Stormseeker
Affliction
Zaniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 12:01 AM   #95
Brigiid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,879
Send a message via AIM to Brigiid
Originally Posted by Xanthaar
You complain that the media releases these photos and brings these incidents to the attention of the public. Would you prefer the alternative; that these little mishaps are swept under the rug and nothing gets done?
I wouldn't prefer that. However, I don't think it's necessary to have the images plastered all over every news broadcast, day in and day out.


Originally Posted by Xanthaar
And yet there was little or no complaint when the media was showing footage for days of jubilant Iraqi's when Saddam was toppled.
There's a really big difference here between showing a jubilant crowd of people that have just been freed from a dictator and showing pictures of someone being mistreated like the prisoners were. I realize you're trying to make a point, but it's a really poor comparison.
__________________
Meh.
Brigiid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 12:42 AM   #96
chukzombi
The Undead Shaman
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Bowels of Hell, A.K.A. New Jersey
Posts: 9,564
This is getting like that press conference where the reporters wasted the president's time asking him over and over if he felt bad about 9/11. Now they ask him everyday to say hes sorry for those prisoners. He went to the mid east gave 2 interviews expressing his outrage over the incident, then came back and made an apology about it and the press still expects him to say hes really really sorry with sugar on top.
__________________
Chukzombi Astrocreep
Magister (re-united)
chukzombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 02:01 AM   #97
Chiteng
Supporter
 
Chiteng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,240
Actually the pictures prove that this admin is quite liberal.

If I were Prez, it would have been pictures of BODIES, hopefully in a great deal of pain before dying.

War is NOT pleasant. It should be avoided. But if you ARE at war,
the gloves come OFF.

Show the enemy, the mailed fist.
__________________
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest
Chiteng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 03:47 AM   #98
Xanthaar
Toon Army
 
Xanthaar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Washington, United Kingdom
Posts: 234
If it were the same images of the same prisoners being broadcast repeatedly, I would agree 100% with you, Brigiid.

However, the news here (In Britain) has been reporting on different incidents of abuse for several days. Therefore it isn't repetition for it's own sake. It's reporting new incidents when have been brought to light.

From a news-reporting perspective, I personally would want to know how these new incidents are happening, just like I would like to know of the latest attacks against our troops.
Xanthaar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 04:02 AM   #99
Caelie123
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,027
We can all say we think this and we think that, but what I actually think is this whole little incident is being really overrated. They humiliated some prisioners. Deal with the quilty soldiers, give the prisioners some milk and cookies and move along.

We had this cop hit some guy in the head with a flashlight. He got a booboo. For some reason the news had to show that every 15 minutes for about a week. That was the commercial and advertisement for every local newstation. Most people were probably like us saying "my god, I can't believe they are showing that AGAIN". Just goes to show how bad the media is hurting for real news.
__________________
Caelie
65 Human Cleric
Caelie123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 04:04 AM   #100
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Chiteng, you are fuckin looney (big surprise there). Once an enemy has surrendered to you, or is otherwise in your custody, killing them is cold-blooded murder. Being at war doesn't mean we have to turn into barbarians. And don't give me that shit about how I don't know what it takes to win a war. I may not have been in a war, but I know shooting fish in a barrel isn't a key factor in victory.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:08 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.