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Old 05-05-2004, 09:30 AM   #26
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Bush didn't apologize for his existance!
And he still hasn't stepped down!
Good enough luri? sheesh.



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Old 05-05-2004, 09:47 AM   #27
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OK apologize wasn't the right word. Bush has noting to apologize for. I should have said he is speaking to the Iraqi's letting them know that the actions of a handful of soldiers in no way represents approval from the US.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:13 AM   #28
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I was using the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners as but one example.
Yes, but it was an incredibly poor example. While he didn't outright apologize (is it even his place to do so?), he did publicly express revulsion over the incident and concern about how it was being handled. Just because you personally haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Probably some other things you've missed, too. Very difficult to say what someone is not doing if you aren't around them 24/7.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:18 AM   #29
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One of the key mission statements of this administration has been "No accountability at the top."

When you are the boss, you are ultimately accountable for the actions of each and every subordinate. I'm not saying these offenses were committed on his orders, but George Bush damn well is accountable for the actions of those he has placed in a position to commit such crimes.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
One of the key mission statements of this administration has been "No accountability at the top."

When you are the boss, you are ultimately accountable for the actions of each and every subordinate. I'm not saying these offenses were committed on his orders, but George Bush damn well is accountable for the actions of those he has placed in a position to commit such crimes.
I respectfully disagree...

The Facility CC, definately responsible. Even the Theater CG, marginally. POTUS? No way. He is too far removed from the site, the individuals, their training, etc.

Just my opinion...
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:34 AM   #31
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Ah, so then we let Bush stand in his ivory tower to "tsk tsk" for the cameras when pushed but otherwise absolve him from the chain of command that allowed this to happen?

Again, I'm not saying that these offenses happened through willful negligence on GWB's behalf, but do believe he needs to apologize on behalf of the system that so grossly wronged those prisoners, which is part of his making.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:34 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
When you are the boss, you are ultimately accountable for the actions of each and every subordinate.
And you know what about being the "boss? Bush isn't the "boss". He's
the President. And his accountability is not to every subordinate
that cries in their beer every nite because their life is useless.

What your actually trying to say is that nobody is responsible
for their own actions. And only those in any power should be
accountable. Ohh the liberal way indeed. No accountability
for their own actions. It's always somebody elses fault.
Usefull idiots.

I'm not saying these offenses were committed on his orders, but George Bush
damn well is accountable for the actions of those he has placed in a position to
commit such crimes.
Your logic is twisted and you have no clue about what your talking about.
Whats next, Bush is responsible for every drop out? Laughable..

Now I suppose your going to redefine (spin) your meanings for us. Go ahead.
No wonder kerry is losing, just look at his supporters.

Bush supporter's response to protestors in Cincinnati. Hoo-Ra.
Indoctrinated Protestor

God Bless America
Zolmaz.

Last edited by Zolmaz Zo'Boto; 05-05-2004 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:39 AM   #33
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I understand...

I just dont think POTUS has any responsibilty here. There are checks and balances in place (UCMJ and MCM) for incidents of this type. They will be charged, tried, and punished, by a jury of their superiors.

Politically he may need to address the issue, and I think he should publicly say something along the lines of this is not tolerated, this is not how the US handles prisoners, etc, etc. But, to expect the POTUS to apologize for it is unnecessary/unrealistic.

From a RL perspective...this endangers our POW's in custody of foreign powers as well as may effect the temperament of persons on the edge of surrendering. Not to mention the troubles the soldiers on the ground will have to deal with...even more distrust, bitterness, anger, etc.

My $.02.
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:20 AM   #34
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Zolmaz, you talking to me about logic is like Joseph Stalin lecturing Mother Theresa about morality.

You, in typical fashion, have made a gross assumption: that I don't hold the individuals who actually committed the crimes accountable. This is obviously not true. There are multiple points of failure here and hence multiple points of fault/blame. This is a big, complicated concept for you I'd imagine, so take small bites and chew slowly to avoid choking on your own ignorance.

Learn how to reason, learn how to read, learn how to spell, learn how to talk without drooling over yourself like a retard with a hardon, and *then* you can come talk to me Zolmaz. In the meantime, keep destroying that liver of yours and masturbating to pictures of Nancy Reagan.
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:29 AM   #35
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So I was right.
And the truth obviously hurt's.
Sticks and stones.




God Bless America
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:31 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Yes, but it was an incredibly poor example. While he didn't outright apologize (is it even his place to do so?), he did publicly express revulsion over the incident and concern about how it was being handled. Just because you personally haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Probably some other things you've missed, too. Very difficult to say what someone is not doing if you aren't around them 24/7.
Perhaps it is a poor example, or is it being misunderstood? His place to apologize? I think as the Commander in Chief over the armed forces, he is in the best place to apologize for the actions of his subordinates. Don't you?
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:46 AM   #37
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The libs want an open apology for one purpose only,
A Kerry-commercial sound bite. Just like those idiotic questions
to bush at the press conference.

Kerry will just have to make up his own.



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Old 05-05-2004, 11:57 AM   #38
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Zolmaz, you are incorrect. The incidents of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners have become an international scandal, because of the level and severity of the scandal it is the responsibility of the sitting president to not just make a statement of outrage, but to apologize to both the Iraqi people and the American people for the actions of those ultimately under his command.
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:08 PM   #39
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In November, when the abuse took place, few Shiite Muslims like Mr. Abd were carrying out attacks against United States forces. Nearly all the attacks were attributed to forces loyal to Saddam Hussein, mostly Sunni Muslims, and fighters from other Muslim countries.

"The truth is we were not terrorists," he said. "We were not insurgents. We were just ordinary people. And American intelligence knew this."

Mr. Abd spoke with no particular anger at the American occupation, though he has seen it closer than most Iraqis. In six months in prisons run by American soldiers, in fact, he said most of them had treated him well and with respect.

"Most of the time, they wouldn't even say, `Shut up,' " he said.

That changed in November he does not know the exact date when punishment for a prisoner fight at Abu Ghraib degenerated into torture. That night, he said, he and six other inmates were beaten, stripped naked (a particularly deep humiliation in the Arab world), forced to pile on top of one another, to straddle one another's backs naked, to simulate oral sex. American guards wrote words like "rapist" on their skin with Magic Marker, he said.

The curiosity, through much of the ordeal, was the camera. It was a detail he mentioned repeatedly as he recalled being forced against a wall and ordered by the Arabic translator to masturbate as he looked at one of the female guards.

"She was laughing, and she put her hands on her breasts," Mr. Abd said. "Of course, I couldn't do it. I told them that I couldn't, so they beat me in the stomach, and I fell to the ground. The translator said, `Do it! Do it! It's better than being beaten.' I said, `How can I do it?' So I put my hand on my penis, just pretending."

All the while, he said, the flash of the camera kept illuminating the dim room that once held prisoners of Mr. Hussein, recording images that have infuriated the Arab world and badly sullied America's image in a country more willing these days to think the worst of its occupiers.

"It was humiliating," Mr. Abd said in Arabic through an interpreter. "We did not think that we would survive. All of us believed we would be killed and not get out alive."

Though the pictures tell their own story, the details of Mr. Abd's account could not be verified. But a military official here said the prisoner number that Mr. Abd gave, 13077, matched that of a former prisoner who submitted a sworn statement alleging abuse by American soldiers. He also said the man's account was consistent with those verified by a military investigator. Several episodes that Mr. Abd recounted also matched, in some detail, testimony given by other American soldiers horrified by what they saw.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/in...st/05INMA.html
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:39 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Zolmaz, you are incorrect. The incidents of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners have become an international scandal, because of the level and severity of the scandal it is the responsibility of the sitting president to not just make a statement of outrage, but to apologize to both the Iraqi people and the American people for the actions of those ultimately under his command.
I am correct. Maybe you don't understand "what" the party you're supporting
is all about. And maybe you missed the media asking Bush 9 different ways
from sunday, to apologize. It's a stratagy plain and simple. And you cannot
justify it any other way.

The media is drooling to place blame on Bush for a democrat win.
It's an election year remember?



God Bless America
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:50 PM   #41
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Oh btw, that post from the NYT?, that enboldens the prisoners to cry foul.
Even if they are not abused by being stripped naked. Whoop-dee-freekin-doo.

Now every prisoner is going to cry foul, why?, do I really have to say?
Because it undermines American policy through the media BS like from
the NYT who will print anything negative wether it's true or not..

If anybody doesn't know this, you better go crawl back under your rocks.
You're all in denile if you refuse to concede to the factual and
undermining truth of the media's potential.

/rant off

Have a wonderful and happy day.



God Bless America
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:57 PM   #42
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Ah yes Zolmaz, that tried and tired line of argument we've come to know the least imaginative on the right to use when cornered: It's all the media's fault- they're out to get the GOP!!

And then you have the audacity to imply that the media shouldn't publish stories about abuse allegations. Priceless. Oh, and you might want to read further than the stripped naked part Zolmaz- this is not complaining about a simple strip search. Even you couldn't possibly be this dense.

Lastly,

Originally Posted by Zolmaz
You're all in denile if you refuse to concede to the factual and undermining truth of the media's potential.
Can anyone translate this for me? I lost my Retardese to English dictionary
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:11 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Ah yes Zolmaz, that tried and tired line of argument we've come to know the least imaginative on the right to use when cornered: It's all the media's fault- they're out to get the GOP!!

And then you have the audacity to imply that the media shouldn't publish stories about abuse allegations. Priceless. Oh, and you might want to read further than the stripped naked part Zolmaz- this is not complaining about a simple strip search. Even you couldn't possibly be this dense.

Lastly,



Can anyone translate this for me? I lost my Retardese to English dictionary
Translation, the media plays a larger role then some want to realize or admit.

Like you for instance, you don;t think the media is biased against Bush.
You're in denile.



God Bless America
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:16 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Zolmaz Zo'Boto
It's a stratagy plain and simple. And you cannot
justify it any other way.
I already have justfied it and you are simply ignoring the justification. BTW, there are Republicans and Democrats alike pushing the administration on the this issue, so I don't think it is some vast liberal conspiracy at work.
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:18 PM   #45
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"Like you for instance, you don;t think the media is biased against Bush.
You're in denile."

Horm, are you on vacation in Egypt at the moment?

Also I am sure there is plenty in the "media" who are biased towards Bush. It is the nature of the beast and what balances it to some extent.
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:35 PM   #46
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I'm glad Usna caught it

As to the media Zolmaz, I don't think it is overall biased against Bush. There are pieces of it that are biased against him, certainly, but there are pieces that are biased against the left also. I maintain that the media is fairly balanced overall and other than spouting unsubstantiated stock n3oc0n rhetoric about it, you've yet to prove a thing about media-bias.

Finally, can you please use a spell checker before clicking "Submit Reply"? Have some pride boy.
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:50 PM   #47
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Thank you Usna.

Horm,
You're still ignorant of the truth the mainstream media's bias pushes against Bush.
Thats ok, I understand. They tell you what you want to hear and not what
reporting used to be about. No problem.

And don't start up with the dictionary-dork agenda again.
You've worn it out already.
Damn kids. heh



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Zolmaz Zo'Boto (The sky is falling, the sky is falling)
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:15 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Zolmaz
You're still ignorant of the truth the mainstream media's bias pushes against Bush.
Where's your proof for that assertion? Are we all supposed to believe you just because you say so?
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Where's your proof for that assertion? Are we all supposed to believe you just because you say so?
Are you going to ignore it because I said so? I don't ignore your implications.

Lurikeen,
Have you ever heard a speach, then read the text of the actual speach,
then read/heard the media's version of the speach?

If you're convinced that the media does not have bias, nothing I say
will convince you otherwise. Do the above and see for yourself.

In fact, find a speach from President Bush. Any speach. Read and study that
speach, it might take you about 10-20 min. Then go to various newspapers
like the NYT and the Washington post and the seatle times, and the kansas tribune etc.

Compare the stories from the actual speach for yourself.
Then tell me there is no bias. Take your time.



God Bless America
Zolmaz Zo'Boto (Credibility in reporting should be news)


edit: Here read this article. It's just a start.

Last edited by Zolmaz Zo'Boto; 05-05-2004 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:37 PM   #50
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Where's your proof for that assertion? Are we all supposed to believe you just because you say so?
Pick up any copy of the NYT from the year 2001 on, or watch any daily rerun of CNN from the same time forward and it becomes pretty obvious Lurikeen. There are certain largescale media outlets that almost seem to be driven by the one goal of singlehandedly shaping the election in December. When I took journalism in college I was taught the media was supposed to report facts..not create them. Our professor made it quite clear that one of the worst and possibly the most damaging part of any news publication was the Op-Ed section. He felt that that section needed to be kept in check fairly regularly or the publication would eventually lose it's ability to claim no bias in it's reporting. Just take a look at the Op-Ed sections in the NYT...they have lost any control whatsoever on the concept of separation of news and opinion and I think that's what has lead to a growing sense of skepticism in "truth in reporting" among some of it's readers.

Same goes for CNN..and I will also say FOX which bends the other direction of course.

Would you hire Rush Limbaugh to do the nightly news on your local stations? Probably not because he would undoubtedly put a severe right wing spin on everything..well the situation is no different for the left..although they have not managed to keep the separation at all and often some of their "prime" reporters and journalists are what we would call "rabid liberal watchdogs".

I will have to agree with Zol here..there is most definately a terrible bias in American media. Yes it does exist on the right too..but not nearly enough to provide the balance Horm would suggest. For every one Foxnews or one Drudge there are 100 NYT's or CNN's..

It's a sad day for America when newspapers stop reporting and start creating news..

I hate to make this comparison because 50 years ago I would have said the NYT was a pillar of American society..but I think the best description for the NYT now is "America's Al Jazeera".
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