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Old 05-01-2004, 03:42 PM   #1
bumbleroot
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Default Guns don't kill people...Or do they?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/05/....ap/index.html

I can't think of any instance more demonstrative of that cliche than this.

A federal drug agent shot himself in the leg during a gun safety presentation to children in what police describe as an accident. His bosses, however, are still investigating the incident.
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Old 05-01-2004, 03:58 PM   #2
gojirra monk
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Slamfires happen. He messed up by having his leg in the way, but other than that, the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.

I'm guessing an investigation will show cheap ammo (weak primer) and/or an out of spec sear.

Oh, and this couldn't happen in a modern design like a Glock.
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:02 PM   #3
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So who died?
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:04 PM   #4
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Hmmm....Bumble are you suggesting the gun took a life of its own and shot the agent? hahaha
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:21 PM   #5
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Clearly the gun acted on it's own.
Like those SuV's that run people over.
Sheesh, that 40-cal must have hurt like hell.
www.nra.org

Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous? Yes and no. The question I have is
what was he doing with a live firearm in a school during a safety training
session. There are dry fire dummy rounds that are made for this exact demonstration
and safety is assured so long as the instructor is competent.
Check out the site. It's a good read.

edit: I've seen many misfires during contests. But proper handling assures
that nobody gets hurt. There are rules for a reason, just like in skydiving.
Human error is not an acceptable accident.


God Bless America
God Bless our 2nd Amendment rights
Zolmaz.

Last edited by Zolmaz Zo'Boto; 05-01-2004 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:33 PM   #6
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Er, it doesn't say where it happened. No matter.




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Old 05-01-2004, 09:53 PM   #7
bumbleroot
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Seems to me like Mr. Safety officer could not control his gun.

Unfortunately you cons are so ideologically staid that you can't even admit the FACT that guns are intended to kill. That handling them causes accidental and unnecessary deaths.
In other words, you cons pretty much believe anything out of ideology rather than thinking things through or basing it on fact or research or anything substantial. This means that you believe simply out of blind faith, and not out of anything but. Perhaps that is why you don't ever back up anything you say and perhaps that is why you try to pass opinion as fact so often.
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Old 05-01-2004, 09:58 PM   #8
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Unfortunately you cons are so ideologically staid that you can't even admit the FACT that guns are intended to kill.
So who died?
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:31 PM   #9
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Chuk,
No liberal in the world owns a gun. Dare a Liberal-socialist-Dem confirm that they own a firearm. *GASP*
Hell to pay from their own party. Not the Repubs.

Bumbleroot,
I could list every Democrat politician who is against the 2nd amendment,
who also carries a firearm. And will not go anywhere without an armed escort!
Who wants to control firearms here?

Originally Posted by Bumbleroot
Unfortunately you cons are so ideologically staid that you can't even admit the FACT that guns are intended to kill.
Oh, well yes guns are intended to kill. I admit that GUNS ARE INTENDED TO KILL.

What the fuck do you think caused our freedom? Slingshots?

Are you so ill-versed in history that you think the west was won on arrows? Bumble?

My god, in 1782 there were ships equiped with cannons. And those ships
protected a country. How dare they protect themselves!

I own a 357. How dare I protect myself. Oh, and a baseball bat just in case.
Is it bad to own a gun?, no! It's worse to be ignorant of firearms.


Bumbleroot. You'e reeking of anxiety.



God Bless America
God Bless President George W. Bush

Zolmaz Zo'Boto (Last time I reeked of anything was when I pooped my diaper after birth)
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:57 PM   #10
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dont make me go all libertarian on your asses.
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:11 PM   #11
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by Trech
dont make me go all libertarian on your asses.
You can have my liberal sisters fat ass. She doesn't even know the world revolves around President Bush.
/shiver


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Old 05-02-2004, 12:07 AM   #12
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Guns kill, If you are to stupid to handle one without hurting yourself i can only hope your first mistake is a fatal one, for yourself, if your to dumb to keep it from your kids i hope they shoot your testicals off.
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:36 AM   #13
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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If Guns kill, what pulls the trigger?

Testicles? Yikes,
Good thing I only have wee little tea-bags.



God Bless America
Zolmaz Zo'Boto (Damn Gnome with peanut sized tea bags)
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Old 05-02-2004, 06:57 AM   #14
bumbleroot
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Who wants to control firearms here?
GEt it through your head- nobody is trying to control the guns. We are trying to show you that even responsible gun owners are not responsible. Rather than trying to say everyone is trying to take away your second amendment rights, perhaps you ought to realize that guns are not infallible and they are a serious problem in this country but cons just don't want to face up to those problems.
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Old 05-02-2004, 07:50 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
GEt it through your head- nobody is trying to control the guns. We are trying to show you that even responsible gun owners are not responsible. Rather than trying to say everyone is trying to take away your second amendment rights, perhaps you ought to realize that guns are not infallible and they are a serious problem in this country but cons just don't want to face up to those problems.


I can't stop laughing Bumble, please keep posting, makes my day. You have sooo many contradictions in those two sentences I don't even know where to start.
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Old 05-02-2004, 08:03 AM   #16
gojirra monk
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Actually, handguns aren't (normally) designed to kill.

Outside of the media, I don't think there is much of a problem with guns in this country, much less a "serious" one.

As for this guy, he had the muzzle pointed at the floor. Sounds fairly responsible to me. Could he have been even more responsible, perhaps by aiming at a point on the floor that his leg wasn't in the way of? Sure, but it isn't like he was waving it around or pointing it at someone.
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Old 05-02-2004, 08:13 AM   #17
Gerick
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bumble it was shitty ammo, and the guy that was running the demo obviusly didnt know much about his type of gun, else he would have known even with the clip removed, one was primed with that model
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Old 05-02-2004, 08:53 AM   #18
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Let me guess, Bumble, the fucking retard, has no clue how to operate a gun, has never owned a gun, but believes that he knows far more about guns than those of us who do use them. That, of course, gives him the right to legislate any/all rules for us to obey, since obviously, he knows more about it than us.

Bumble, STFU. I am so sick of people trying to tell me what is best for me, that have no fucking clue about which they speak.

Next time you see a woman getting raped Bumble, please, run up and offer him some flowers, or a hearty handshake and admonishment not to be such a bad boy, or better yet, get a UN resolution to stop him.

Me, I'll shoot his ass. Yep, me...not the gun, but me, the PERSON pulling the trigger. If guns actually could kill people, I would be hiding under the bed if'n I were you, they take offense at being stereotyped...

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Old 05-02-2004, 10:47 AM   #19
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Here let me clarify a bit.

Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.

Check out some of the odds. I see a hell of a lot more people killing themselves than people dying from guns. OUTLAW PEOPLE they are just too dangerous.

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm
Here is another for ya. If that doesn't at least make you wake up enough to pull your head out of your ass and see reality...stay under the bed. This was from 6/25/02.

Crime statistics released Monday by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) suggest strongly that tough gun control laws do little to curb violent crime.

According to the latest FBI Uniform Crime Reports, the U.S. murder rate jumped 3.1 percent while forcible rapes inched up 0.2 percent. Overall, the U.S. crime rate climbed 2 percent.

Interestingly enough, cities having strict gun control laws saw their respective crime rates jump well in excess of the national average. For example:

-- In Boston, where the state legislature recently imposed the most oppressive gun laws in the nation, the murder rate went up a whopping 67 percent in 2001. Likewise, the rate of forcible rapes went up 11 percent.

-- Buffalo, NY, also saw a 67 percent increase in its murder rate and a 30 percent increase in its forcible rape rate in 2001. New York politicians routinely boast about having some of the toughest state gun control laws in the country.

-- Chicago not only outpaced the national average by posting a 5 percent increase in its murder rate, but the city remains the odds-on favorite to capture the title of "Nation's Murder Capitol." In Chicago, it's illegal for citizens to own defensive handguns. The city's mayor, Richie Daley, is currently on a personal crusade to ban civilian firearm ownership nationwide.

-- While liberal Coloradoans were busy penning legislation to clamp down on law-abiding citizens attending gun shows, Denver saw a 40 percent increase in its murder rate.

-- Hartford, Conn., suffered a 47 percent increase in its murder rate and a 21 percent increase in its rape rate for 2001. The Connecticut state legislature is busy competing with Massachusetts for the title of being the least-friendly state to law-abiding gun owners.

-- St. Louis, Mo., prides itself as being responsible for the defeat of a recent statewide referendum that would have allowed law-abiding citizens to carry defensive firearms. For 2001, St. Louis saw a 19 percent increase in its murder rate and a 7 percent jump in rapes.

On the flip side, the gun control movement has long criticized Florida for having "lax" gun control laws -- including concealed carry. But, unlike cities in the "gun control belt," Miami's murder and rape rates remained stable for 2001.

"The gun control movement continues to claim that banning civilian firearm ownership is the key to eliminating violent crime," commented ISRA president Richard Pearson. "These latest FBI figures refute that claim. In places where law-abiding gun owners are severely restricted, murders and rapes went way up. In places where law-abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves, murders and rapes remained relatively stable."

"The bottom line is that gun control makes raping, robbing and murdering much easier," continued Pearson. "Therefore, people who oppose concealed carry are, for all practical purposes, accessories to the assault, rape, and murder of defenseless citizens. People who propose raising FOID card fees are essentially setting poor people up for slaughter. People who advocate firearm "waiting periods" are leaving battered women defenseless against abusive males. And anyone claiming that gun control makes our streets safer is either greatly misinformed, or just a liar."

------


Spend your time in more worthwhile pursuits if you really care about your fellow man. Catch acid rain on your tongue. Carry co-workers to and from work so traffic deaths and pollution decrease. Melt all the ice off sidewalks in the northern states with a hair dryer...something USEFUL. Leave my dam guns alone.

Vulpes
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Old 05-02-2004, 11:14 AM   #20
Misty
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It's just like saying booze kills, this stuff never did anything but lay dormant in its bottle. Waiting. It knows that an opportunity to slide down our throats and strike will come!

En Vino Veritas!
<hiccups>

Last edited by Misty; 05-02-2004 at 11:15 AM. Reason: took out a word for reading clarity
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:31 PM   #21
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Do you get a pamplet with issues and what side to take, Bumble?
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:32 PM   #22
bumbleroot
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I can't stop laughing Bumble, please keep posting, makes my day. You have sooo many contradictions in those two sentences I don't even know where to start.
Cut the bullshit. If you say there are contradictions- start pointing them out instead of merely teethless rhetoric.

For you Vulpes
GEt it through your head- nobody is trying to control the guns.
That, of course, gives him the right to legislate any/all rules for us to obey,
Wanna shut up or do you wanna show me where I am trying to force legislation down your throat?
I am merely pointing out that even the most experienced gun users are not immune from getting shot with their own guns. As long as you idiots keep ignoring that, it will keep happening. Somewhere along the lines I learned that you learn from mistakes.
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:34 PM   #23
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Find a person with and you will find an opinion. Some will agree, some will disagree, some expert will say crime has fallen due to gun control and an equal number will say it has not.


Has it worked in England?
... a stringent gun control policy has not eliminated it....
has it lowered it??
... cant tell you we have nothing to judge it against since the dynamics of before the law passed to current situations is so greatly different.

however in some studies where you can judge before and after...
(older study but apt and I could find it quickly)


http://www.ncpa.org/pd/monthly/pd896b.html

"CONCEALED GUNS DETER CRIME, STUDY FINDS

In cities with populations of more than 250,000, murder rates dropped after the passage of such laws by an average of 13.5 percent.
According to the study, the fall in crime did not result from an increased use of guns, but from potential criminals avoiding confrontations. In fact, criminals apparently shifted to lower-risk offenses, since property crimes increased in those states. Other findings included:
The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.


The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.

If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.

In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.

Sources: Ian Katz, "'Gun Law' Cuts Crime Rate, US Study Finds," Guardian, August 3, 1996, and Dennis Cauchon, "Study: Weapons Laws Deter Crime: Fewer Rapes, Murders Found Where Concealed Guns Legal," USA Today, August 2, 1996.

For more information on gun ownership as a deterrent to crime, read NCPA's study "Myths About Gun Control" at http://www.public-policy.org/~ncpa/s...s176/s176.html




Now personally I believe that a Gun can be a lethal tool.... however it is not the gun it is the person behind the gun. If those intent on potential violence did not have a gun legally they would get one illegally or a knife or a bat ... or the pen on your desk...

Are there situations where if a criminal who killed someone did not have a gun the person would still be alive?
yes

Are there situations where if a victim had a gun they would be alive?
yes


Dose the presence of guns in society mean that someone innocent may die?
yes... of tripping over their feet on the stairs, auto accident, work accident and yes guns (maybe more so ignorance of guns then knowledge of guns).
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
I am merely pointing out that even the most experienced gun users are not immune from getting shot with their own guns. As long as you idiots keep ignoring that, it will keep happening. Somewhere along the lines I learned that you learn from mistakes.

Yes its a accident... they happen... they happen in every aspect of life from the steal worker 200' above the city streets... to the pharmacist that gives you your medicine... to the parent that was sleeping at night while their child climbed the gate and fell down the stairs… to a child running with scissors... tragic events.... but accidents.

To say “I can stop all gun related death by eliminating all guns”… is like saying “I can eliminate all deaths by wrong prescriptions by eliminating all medicine.”
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Old 05-02-2004, 01:24 PM   #25
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To say “I can stop all gun related death by eliminating all guns”… is like saying “I can eliminate all deaths by wrong prescriptions by eliminating all medicine.”
Nowhere has anyone mentioned to eliminate guns.
I am not that idiotic to realize that as even a possibility. There are too many gun freaks to even make that happen.
I am basically saying that if you have a killing instrument and you mess up with it, people get shot. I find it utter ignorance that people continue to ignore the problems of guns going off. I showed that it happens even with the most experienced and responsible users.
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