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Old 05-01-2004, 04:12 AM   #1
linnet
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Default Say it isn't so!

For those of you convinced that the UN, France, Germany, and Russia voted against military action due to their superior moral and intellectual abilities .... looks like something a little more venal may have been the driving force... read on....


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=13176

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Apr29.html

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...ecti on=world

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0404182336.asp

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0404261356.asp

http://nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/17982.htm

There's alot more... and most of it pretty consistent.
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Old 05-01-2004, 06:12 AM   #2
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I've said all along those countries were on the take from Saddam. People can say all they want that those countries refused to help because they thought it was an unjust war, but most of us know the real reason. Saddam was padding their wallets.
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Old 05-01-2004, 09:17 AM   #3
linnet
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The silence from the left is nearly deafening here on this board and in the newspapers as well.

Guys did you catch the part about the press being on the take as well? Sad to say it appears that even those staunch defenders of truth and justice were perhaps not blind to self-interest. But then, didn't CNN say as much when they admitted not reporting all the atrocities in Iraq under Saddam in order to preserve their "access"? (Makes one wonder what good is access if you can't report the information that access provides... on the other hand ... perhaps the $$ represented by this scandal was the only access they needed...)

There was some random article that implicated Hans Blix ... yes, it's true... even that icon of integrity perhaps had an interest in turning a blind eye to some things ...

Listens for a response...
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Old 05-01-2004, 09:58 AM   #4
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The silence from the left is nearly deafening
You have gotten better at regurgitating stupid catchphrases (252)!
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:04 AM   #5
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Nice response ...

That's the best defense you can muster?
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:07 AM   #6
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Prove to me money was the only reason.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:16 AM   #7
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Isn't money enough as part of the reason?

I know money clouds judgment, so losing that much $$ would be a huge incentive to vote against an 'unjust war' or whatever BS they claim.

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Old 05-01-2004, 10:22 AM   #8
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Can you honestly say that, had they not received any funds, they would have voted otherwise?
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:29 AM   #9
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I'm sure money was at least part of the reason. It is in most things these days. It's a powerful motivator and can mean the difference between eating and starving. Administrators who cannot maintain or improve some level of financial and economical solvency aren't usually favored by their people. See how that's evident in the current US administration?

I kind of look at it like I look at people who report crimes. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to over the last ~7 years that have witnessed a crime, recognized it as wrong, unfair, whatever, and chosen not to come forward just because they don't want to be associated with it. They don't want so-and-so to know they called the police because they don't want that person to come back and kick their ass later. They don't want to be shown as taking sides or being in cahoots with "the law" (read: unpopular government?).

It doesn't mean that they don't think what happened was wrong, it just means that their own personal interests were more valuable to them than the issue at hand, which is understandable. Survival is a human instinct, and that may be what they consider necessary to maintain their level of existence.

Alliances and enemies change. We trained OBL and he turned on us. Throughout time, friendships and political alignments have been built and crumbled, over and over again. Who's to say that they wouldn't be our allies today, and that we'd turn on them tomorrow? Who's to say that the arab nation wouldn't grow and become a major power over the next decade or two, and turn on them? The Middle East is a lot closer to them than the US, and they've proven to be a lot more aggressive and brutal than we have.

I love the US as much as the next red-blooded American, don't get me wrong. Still, I can't blame other countries around the world for not trusting us. We've overlooked things in the past in the name of trade and diplomacy. We don't play by a clear-cut set of rules. Trusting us would be iffy at best, and for a lot of people, that's a gamble too big to make.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:29 AM   #10
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Its a slippery slope Ares, to start making excuses. They were taking bribes and their friends were taking bribes and their families were taking bribes. Any thing else is secondary to that fact.

The war in Iraq may end up looking like a slap fight compared to the aftershocks of this scandal. Our very participation in the UN is going to be called in to question and that cant be good for any one.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:35 AM   #11
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"Can you honestly say that, had they not received any funds, they would have voted otherwise?" Quoted from Aresprophet


They voted otherwise 10 years before the program was put in place.
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:31 AM   #12
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Ok, let me make sure I've got this right.

One side says they removed an oppressive dictator. The opposition says that is bullshit, it's really all about the money/oil.

Now, it turns out there was money was on the other side too, and now you are claiming that it wasn't just the money, but a moral issue?

You can't have it both ways, which is it?

If the money is important, the beneficiaries of the oil-for-corruption scheme are profiteering assholes, at least as bad as the new profiteering assholes (at least the new assholes are profiteering in public view).

If the money is not important, we have two different sets of principles in disagreement. That disagreement will probably never be resolved, but at least the despot isn't living the good life at the expensive of his people any more.

So, which way is it? Are those countries greedy? Or merely willing to sit by and ignore his actions and schemes?
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:52 AM   #13
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if it was just about money, the governments just say: "ok.. lets rush to war together.. so we can split the cake"

right now this countrys got nothing, expect for some subcontracts.

lets take my country (Germany) as an example: most of the people in Germany dont want the war, because its a illegal war.
if everything is about money, they just needed to join the war an we had out piece of the Irak.
but we didnt, because the people said: "no war for oil", thats it.

the war was an easy way to get control over the oil-resources .. but it was not the right way.

-Lars
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Old 05-01-2004, 01:09 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Gojirra
So, which way is it? Are those countries greedy? Or merely willing to sit by and ignore his actions and schemes?
Why does it have to be just one? Can't it be both?

I don't like sauerkraut because I think it tastes and smells bad. My personal reason for disliking sauerkraut is two-fold, and you can't exactly tell me I have to forfeit one of those reasons, and only keep one. The same principle applies here.

When it comes time to make a major decision that will effect an entire nation full of people, there's more than one factor to consider. I realize you're probably just trying to find dissention amongst the posters here, or show the weakness in the opposing argument, but it really is possible that there's more than one factor involved in any nation's decision not to get involved in this war.
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Old 05-01-2004, 01:41 PM   #15
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The governments in question didnt want the war, but it had nothing to do with right or wrong. It had every thing to do with propping up the Hussien regime to keep the pay outs and kick backs rolling in. Of course your country (Germany) was against the war, they were being paid to be against it.

And Brigid, normally we are on the same page, but on this issue I am gonna have to disagree with you. If money changed hands and votes were bought, nothing else really matters. The UN is teetering on the brink and frankly this is the wind that might blow it over the edge.
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Old 05-01-2004, 01:53 PM   #16
kanibaal
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Lallek, just because the German people didnt want the war doesnt change the fact that your government had secret contracts with Saddam. Your government was against the war starting because they were paid off by Saddam to oppose the USA in the UN. So everything is screwed up and nobody will ever know the truth and the USA's trust in the UN is almost nil. Well some ultra libs will prolly still believe in the joke known as the UN but they also sacrifice babies to satan, so why listen to them?
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Old 05-01-2004, 02:30 PM   #17
linnet
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This was in illegal war? How so?

Saddam Hussein broke the conditions of the truce that had been signed, and he broke it in multiple ways and repeatedly, even if you set aside the question of the wmd.

Last time I checked, a surrender resulting in a truce contained the conditions for cessation of hostilities, meaning the loser gives up something in order not to lose everything. Generally speaking, when a truce is broken that means all bets are off and the winner is welcome to come in and finish the job.

Apparently, Saddam was counting on the diplomatic power of bribery ... and in the case of Germany ... it worked quite nicely.
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:35 PM   #18
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I still haven't seen anyone reasonably argue that the bribes were the direct cause of their votes. It's not an excuse.

I used to know a district attorney who was promoted to a judge, so I'll expand on a hypothetical there. Say I need to appear in court for a parking ticket. It's a really big one, but there are some questions as to whether or not I should have to pay it at all; perhaps the officer is suspected of fudging his report because he doesn' like me.

So I go to court, and this judge I know hears the case. Now, being friends I may still do favors for him. I used to babysit his kids, for example. So let's say I watch his kids a couple nights one week before the hearing, as a favor. Then at the hearing he dismisses my ticket, saying the officer didn't have reason to give it to me (for whatever infraction). Have I bribed the judge by helping him out? Perhaps he was going to throw the ticket out anyway.

Note that I'm not applying this to the Iraq war, but rather to the concept of bribery in general, to clarify what I'm asking. It's entirely possible those countries didn't want to go to war as it was; the fact Saddam offered them money to make absolutely no change in their plans was like getting something for nothing.

If you can't prove they made a difference there's little point in arguing about it at all.
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:40 PM   #19
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I still haven't seen anyone reasonably argue that the bribes were the direct cause of their votes. It's not an excuse.
So you dont think Pete Rose should have been banned from baseball?
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:48 PM   #20
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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I really enjoy how the Left tries to justify with opinion and ignorance
while republicans and critical thinkers see the facts.

WTG Leftists. You're going to lose everything this election year.




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Old 05-01-2004, 04:58 PM   #21
Lallek
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Lallek, just because the German people didnt want the war doesnt change the fact that your government had secret contracts with Saddam. Your government was against the war starting because they were paid off by Saddam to oppose the USA in the UN.
i need a proof for the "fact" that Germany had secret contracts and got paid for the vote by Saddam.

.. can you give a source for you information ?
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Old 05-01-2004, 05:17 PM   #22
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by Lallek
i need a proof for the "fact" that Germany had secret contracts and got paid for the vote by Saddam.

.. can you give a source for you information ?
Actually,
Germany
Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually
, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[10]

It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic
businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany’s
“firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq
.” It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the
Baghdad Annual exposition.[11]
During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002
, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[12]

In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[13]
Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980’s.[14]
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally
channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for
boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein’s
Al Fao Supercannon project.[15] An article in the German daily Tageszeitung
reported that of the more than 80 German companies that have done business
with Baghdad since around 1975 and have continued to do so up until 2001
, many have supplied whole systems or components for weapons of mass destruction
http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

Germany broke the same rules they voted for in the UN.
And has been proven early in the war by the dated equpiment
we've uncovered.

Germany Supplied Irak

I'm not trying to harp on you Lallek. In fact I enjoy reading your valuable
input to the board. Your english is very good btw.




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Last edited by Zolmaz Zo'Boto; 05-01-2004 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 05-01-2004, 05:22 PM   #23
AresProphet
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Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980’s.[14]
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally
channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for
boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein’s
Al Fao Supercannon project.[15] An article in the German daily Tageszeitung
reported that of the more than 80 German companies that have done business
with Baghdad since around 1975 and have continued to do so up until 2001
, many have supplied whole systems or components for weapons of mass destruction
Ah, so they broke rules that weren't even around until 1991, during the 1980's.

Why was this even mentioned? Is anyone forbidden from doing any business at all with Iraq by the sanctions? How many U.S. companies had contracts with Iraq?
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Old 05-01-2004, 05:48 PM   #24
Lallek
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@Zolmaz:
thanks for the flowers.. i try to work on my english.

to your posting: ok, i think many countrys had contract with the irak government.
the direkt link.. between both governments (Germany - Irak) are not proof.
... the reward they gave to german companys are not allowed by the government.

not one company, denied to work for the Irak.

-Lars
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Old 05-01-2004, 05:49 PM   #25
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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German leaders broke their own sanctions for the benifit of money.
I do not in any way hold the citizens of Germany accountable,
only their leadership and UN greed.

Why does it always prove to be true, that those who blame first are always guilty
of what they accuse. This applies to all aspects of life and government.

Bush for oil? What a spin. America supplies 60% of our own oil already.



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God Bless our American Forces
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