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Old 05-01-2004, 02:51 PM   #26
ShardmoonVer.1
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The fact is, they are United States citizens serving in the United States military and their commander in chief is obligated to know as much as he can before throwing them to the wolves.
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Old 05-01-2004, 02:53 PM   #27
Antilles
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Originally Posted by ShardmoonVer.1
The fact is, they are United States citizens serving in the United States military and their commander in chief is obligated to know as much as he can before throwing them to the wolves.
This is true. But that doesn't change he could have done more to attempt to save face with Iraqis, because if this ends up causing even more harm to the current situation over there, it'll be the last thing we need.

Either way it isn't blaming him for what happened, but rather, critiquing his initial response to the situation thereafter.
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Old 05-01-2004, 07:24 PM   #28
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I remember reading when the story first broke that President Bush knew about this long before this was reported. If I remember correctly a time line of approx 80 days was given for the troops involved being under arrest.

Here is a link to the story from CBS

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614063.shtml

Note at the end they state:

Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.
The President knew about this long before the story broke. Whether you agree with his actions or not; I hope this clarifies that issue.


As to the issue at hand, war is hell. When you give little boys big toys that go bang they do bad things. This is a fact; ask anyone who has served as a ground pounder or with helicopters, Vietnam, Iraq I, Somalia, Iraq II etc.

I remember an Iraq I Vet coming to my high school soon after the conflict ended... he told us about some of the horrible things that happened there. He did it, I assume, to reinforce to us that War is hell.

The individuals that committed these acts should be severely punished. When something like this becomes public it does nothing but increase the risk for other soldiers in any conflict. Whatever excuses are given by these troops for their actions, sensitivity to prisoner treatment and basic Geneva Convention Training is instructed even in the Air Force Basic Training, I will assume that in the Army it is stressed more highly than in the Air Force due to missions.

There is no excuse for these troops actions in this situation, and rest assured they will be punished accordingly.

Here is a link to the photos: http://thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

* The pictures are fairly graphic, all work unsafe images are blurred. *
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Old 05-01-2004, 08:10 PM   #29
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by mismort
As to the issue at hand, war is hell.

When you give little boys big toys that go bang they do bad things.

This is a fact; ask anyone who has served as a ground pounder or with helicopters, Vietnam, Iraq I, Somalia, Iraq II etc.
Little boys? American and British forces are just little boys to you? F-YOU!, Kerry style.
You're adding Somalia into the mix?, against Todays action's?
Another finger to you, to you! For your ignorance alone. Holy crap.
Why not add germany. Wtf, And Mexico. And Haiti. Hell, just add canada for laughs.

Hell, blame Bush for the Alamo. Certainly there's a link somewhere.

Anything else?

Like the british said,
Bugger off, before we soccer kick you back into your mothers uterus.
Pub.


Originally Posted by mismort
I remember an Iraq I Vet coming to my high school soon after the conflict ended... he told us about some of the horrible things that happened there. He did it, I assume, to reinforce to us that War is hell.
You're a liar. You are making it up to get attention. Are you John Kerry's son?
Lies and more lies. Get a life already. Do you think lies will make your own life better?

Certainly not.




God Bless America
God Bless our American Troops in Iraq.
Zolmaz Zo'Boto (The liberal institutions (College) of today are not All-American, they indoctrinate every student by threat of grade)
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:51 PM   #30
mismort
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Zolmaz I upset you with my post. My intention I assure was not that. I wanted to clarify that President Bush did in fact know about what happened prior to it breaking into the news. I was not attacking him, nor do I personally feel that he has handled it inappropriately.

You said this:

Little boys? American and British forces are just little boys to you? F-YOU!, Kerry style.
You're adding Somalia into the mix?, against Todays action's?
Another finger to you, to you! For your ignorance alone. Holy crap.
Why not add germany. Wtf, And Mexico. And Haiti. Hell, just add canada for laughs.
Little boys = young men, I apologize if the word useage was not respectful enough for you. In general the majority of the troops are in fact young men. The exception being the Reserves, National Guard, and Senior NCOs. (the troops that are in the field)

You sir do not know me. I am a US Air Force Veteran. I work at an Air Force Base as a civilian contractor doing my best to ensure that the troops throughout the world have the best support possible using satellite systems.

Ogmuk please feel free to identify the location of the I.P. address where I first posted from. It is Schriever Air Force Base. This post is posted from home. Please do not disclose that location.

I have two co-workers who are presently in Iraq. One is performing duties as a civilian contractor; the other is in the National Guard and is deployed in Iraq currently. I respect what both of them are doing. I wish them, and all of the troops and contractors there success in their mission, and a safe return home.

I take offense at the actions taken by these rogue troops. I was not minimizing what they had done by indicating this happens in times of war. I was stating a fact. A sad fact, and a much more sensitive one now that the majority of the troops have cameras on them and email access from the field.

I am not adding anything into the mix. I was attempting to explain that war time abuses have been going on for quite a while. I was listing the most recent conflicts that the US has been involved in.

My ignorance? Pardon me sir, but would you like to talk to an Army vet who was in fact in Somalia, was there when the blackhawk down incident occurred? I work here right next to him. I am sure he would be happy to tell you what he witnessed in Somalia. He is a card carrying Republican if that matters to you. (I am independent if that matters to you as well) There are two Vietnam Vets that I work with, would you like to talk to them too about incidents they witnessed? If so please PM me and I will be glad to give you a good contact number.

You're a liar. You are making it up to get attention. Are you John Kerry's son?
Lies and more lies. Get a life already. Do you think lies will make your own life better?

Certainly not.
I am sure I cannot prove to you that I am not a liar. All I can do is state to you that I am infact not lying. The teacher of that class was a bit too liberal for the Louisiana Public School system and was no longer teaching after my classes’ year with her. She was a bit too friendly with the same sex if the rumors were true.

I have no intention to get people from my English class in High school to come post on this message board. I suppose I could ask people who have been guilded with me over the years in EQ to speak up for me but that would prove little.

You are free to ask my co-workers, if you decide to contact them, about my integrity. I believe in the Air Force Core Values: Integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do. These values are very applicable to both civilian and military IMO.

My post was in no way an attempt to garner attention. As I have stated it was an attempt to clarify what I saw as an incorrect assumption. After that I posted my opinion of what happened, and indicated my disgust with it. If you check my post history (it is small mind you) I believe you will find the majority of my posts are an attempts to clarify things.

I am not John Kerry's son or in any way related to him.

I have a life and enjoy it immensely. I do all I can to protect that way of life.

I do not believe that lying has any place in my life, much to my wife’s frustration when I am a bit too honest with her.

My choice of words offended you and for that I apologize. My opinions about what happened I cannot nor will not apologize for. Have a good day sir.
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:55 AM   #31
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Mismort,
God bless you and your service to our country.

I trust you are honest and sincere my fellow American. For that I give you
my respect sir.

And for your dedicated service to our country, I give you my heart. *SALUTE*

Thank you. And no need to prove anything my friend.
You have my admiration for your service, along with others just like you.
Thank you again.



God Bless America
God Bless our American Troops
Zolmaz.
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Old 05-02-2004, 03:22 AM   #32
Xanthaar
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To address the point of my 'blaming Bush'.

I'm British. The actions of Kerry, Bush, Clinton etc. has little or no influence over my day-to-day living. I do not live in America. For all I care, you could vote a little green man into the white house. I am personally not interested in the other Bush Vs Kerry / whatever bickering on this board. It is not relevant to me.

The point I was making was, I personally thought it was poor form for the president of The United States to not make a comment on these incidents faster then he did.

Hope that clears it up for you.

(Edited for a typing error)
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:49 PM   #33
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More developments:-

U.S. reveals Iraqi prisoner deaths

By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two Iraqi prisoners were murdered by Americans and 23 other deaths are being investigated in Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States has revealed as the Bush administration tries to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi detainees.

"The actions of the soldiers in those photographs are totally unacceptable and un-American," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said of humiliating images in the media of Iraqi prisoners. "Any who engaged in such action let down their comrades who serve honourably each day and they let down their country."

Army officials said on Tuesday that the military had investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA contractor murdered two prisoners. Most of the deaths occurred in Iraq.

An official said a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any jail time.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, at the United Nations for consultations on the Middle East, said only a "small number" of American troops had been involved in the abuse and vowed wrongdoers would be quickly brought to justice.

"I can assure you that no stone will be left unturned to make sure that justice is done and to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again," he said.

President George W. Bush, campaigning in Ohio, did not mention the abuse but his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice again said the president was disgusted and outraged and had demanded those responsible be held accountable.

"The president has told the secretary of defense that he expects people to be held accountable, and that he wants, too, to know that this is not a systemic problem," Rice said.

"In other words, quite apart from the specific cases of those particular photographs, Americans do not dehumanise other people. That is not why we`re in Iraq. We`re in Iraq to liberate a people, to help them," she added.

NEW ALLEGATIONS

Six U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded and six others face criminal charges in connection with abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, but Iraqi prisoners have complained of inhumane treatment by U.S. troops at other centres as well. The allegations first surfaced on January 13 but were only made public last week.

Images of Iraqis prisoners stripped of their clothes and being humiliated and abused have badly damaged U.S. prestige and credibility, especially in the Arab world. They have severely dented the U.S. argument that it invaded Iraq to bring democracy and human rights to a nation brutalised by a vicious dictator, former President Saddam Hussein.

Shocking excerpts from a report on the abuse completed on March 3 by Major General Antonio Taguba and acquired by Reuters on Tuesday, were likely to further stoke fury at home and abroad.

"Between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees," the report said.

"This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF)."

Taguba said several detainees had credibly described acts of abuse, including:

* Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees

* Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair

* Sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick

* Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them

* Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time

* Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped

ANGRY LAWMAKERS

On Capitol Hill, angry Republicans and Democrats weighed in on the scandal. The Senate Intelligence Committee scheduled a closed hearing for Wednesday.

"The prisoner abuse is so disgusting, so degrading, that I think humanity has been hurt broadly," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican. He said it could undercut U.S. efforts to bring democracy to Iraq.

Senator John McCain, an Arizona Republican and committee member who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, joined many lawmakers in complaining that Rumsfeld and other top Pentagon officials failed to inform Congress of the situation.

Rumsfeld refused to use the word "torture".

"I`m not a lawyer," he said. "My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture ... And therefore I`m not going to address the `torture` word."
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:57 PM   #34
Lurikeen
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Originally Posted by Xanthaar
For all I care, you could vote a little green man into the white house.
The little green man lost out to the little chimp.
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