Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2004, 11:53 AM   #26
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
This man did not serve when Kerry served. He has no way of knowing what Kerry saw. He also was proven to be a political pawn of Nixon. So how can he even be trusted at all. We all know Nixon never lied right?
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:25 PM   #27
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
So, by that logic, we shouldn't trust anyone within the Clinton administration, because Clinton proved to be a liar as well? Are you also saying that these same people with whom Kerry served and allegedly committed these "atrocities" completely stopped doing so when Kerry left? You know, bumble, I think you missed your calling. With reach like that, you'd make a great boxer.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:29 PM   #28
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,895
Two can play the link game Wildane
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | sp | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | l
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:43 PM   #29
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
Nice one, Horm! Too bad it doesn't have anything to do with the subject we're discussing!

The "atrocities" Kerry related that were disputed were ones he said were committed by his own unit. Funny, but I don't see Coastal Division 11 anywhere in that article you linked. Hell, for that matter, I don't even see the Navy mentioned .
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:44 PM   #30
Wildane
Psychopath w/a conscience
 
Wildane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Hospitality State, asshole!
Posts: 10,540
And before you get started on your distraction campaign: No, I am not saying atrocities did not happen in Vietnam.
__________________
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." - Umberto Eco

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Wildane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:45 PM   #31
crimsonedge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 767
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
You claimed the atrocities he spoke of were found to be absolutely false. Care to explain or do you honestly expect me to take the word of a wannabe Karl Rove?
The following is extracted from the book by:
B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley
Stolen Valor Verity Press, Inc., Dallas, Texas
Pages 131-136

On January 31, 1971, an organization called Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) convened what became as the Winter Soldier Investigation. Some of the major organizers included Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, Phil Ochs, Graham Nash, David Crosby, and actor Donald Sutherland. For four days in a hotel in Detroit, "veterans" after veteran told grisly tales of horror-of using prisoners for target practice and throwing them out of helicopters, of cutting off the ears of dead VC, of burning villages and gang-raping women.
Lawyer and activist Mark Lane was one of the organizers of Winter Soldier. In 1970, Lane had published a book called Conversations With Americans, in which Vietnam veterans told their stories of committing atrocities and witnessing endless war crimes committed by their fellow soldiers. Many of these tales were obviously absurd. As James Reston Jr. pointed out in a review of the book, Lane quoted one man's contention that a female Communist sympathizer was interrogated, tortured, and then raped by every soldier in his battalion. "Lane does not explain that in Vietnam an American battalion runs anywhere from one thousand to twelve hundred men," Reston said.

Lane's book was blasted by writer and war correspondent Neil Sheehan in The New York Times Book Review as a hack job. Sheehan repeatedly showed that many of Lane's so-called "eye witnesses" to war crimes had never served in Vietnam or had not served in the capacity they claimed.

Veteran Chuck Onan, for example, claimed he had attended parachute, frogman, and jungle survival schools and had received special training in torture techniques, such as stripping women prisoners, spreading their legs, and driving pointed sticks into their vaginas. "They told us we could rape the girls all we wanted," he said. Onan became a member of an LRRP (Long Range Recon Patrol) unit but deserted before he was sent to Vietnam, fleeing to Sweden so he did not have to have to kill. "They just went too far," Onan said.

But Sheehan pointed out that, contrary to his fanciful claims, Onan's military record said he had attended Aviation Mechanical Fundamental school in Memphis, not frogman, parachute, and jungle survival school. Onan had never belonged to an Army LRRP unit; he worked as a stock room clerk at a Marine base in Beaufort, S.C. The torture school was also a product of his vivid imagination. The Marines did not give courses in tormenting prisoners. Onan deserted after receiving orders to go to Vietnam. where his lackluster record indicates that, even if he had gone, he would have been assigned to work as a mechanic or to a mundane administrative job.

Another "Winter Soldier" named Michael Schneider testified that he had shot three peasants in cold blood, and had been told by a sadistic lieutenant to attach wires from a field telephone to a man's testicles, and was ordered by his battalion commander to kill prisoners. After a year and a half as an infantry squad leader, then platoon leader with the 101st Airborne Division and the 196th Light Infantry Brigade, Schneider couldn't take the trauma of war any longer. Although he had been awarded the Bronze Star Medal, the Purple Heart, and the Silver Star, Schneider deserted and fled to Europe.

Schneider also told Lane a fascinating story about his family, claiming that his father, replaced George Patton as the commander of the 11th Armored Calvary Regiment in Vietnam. "He was a captain in World War II," Schneider said. "In the Nazi army."

Lane took this at face value. "Your father is a colonel in Vietnam?" he asked.

"Full colonel. Commanding officer in 11th Cavalry Regiment now," Schneider said, contending that his father changed his name after the war from Dieter von Kronenberger and switched loyalties to the American military.

Lane's point was clear: Nazis are running large American units in Vietnam. Vietnam soldiers are just like the Nazis. But Sheehan pointed out that at the time there was no Colonel Schneider or Von Kronenber in the U.S. Army, and no one by that name ever commanded the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. Schneider's stories about his father were bogus, as were those about his own service: Schneider deserted from Europe, not Vietnam. After surrendering to Army authorities in New York, he deserted again and was arrested on an Oklahoma murder charge. His last recorded resident: The maximum security ward of Eastern State Mental Hospital in Vinita, Oklahoma. Hardly a credible witness.

Sheehan also shed some light on a story told in Lane's book by Terry Whitmeore, a black Marine who had deserted to Sweden. Whitmore claimed that he took part in a planned atrocity-the extermination of an entire village of several hundred people, much like the My Lai massacre.

Whitmore had been in Vietnam during the time he claimed the war crimes took place. But his battalion was operating in an upopulated area near the DMZ. And both his former battalion commander, still on active duty, and former platoon leader in his company, who had left the military to work as a teaching assistant at a university, said no such massacre ever took place. These two men told Sheehan of the earlier incident involving Whitmore's company. The company commander, a captain , and non enlisted man had been involved in an action in which four Vietnamese-two women, a man and a child-had been shot to death. The action happened at night in a hostile area. The two American soldiers were court-martialed on murder charges but acquitted. The company had been fired on; it had been impossible in the dark to distinguish friendlies from enemy. Sheehan speculated that Whitmore had taken that story and inflated the numbers. Although a terrible incident, it was far from the planned massacre of hundreds of civilians.

According to Sheehan, another man in Lane's book, Garry Gianninoto, who claimed that as a Navy medic corpsman he had witnessed numerous atrocities, had actually been assigned to an aid station at a battalion headquarters, well out of the combat zone. He had been court-martialed for refusing orders to work in areas where he might have been shot. In the brig [jail], he signed a statement admitting that he "had committed a homosexual act and had taken morphine," prompting the Navy to boot him out of Vietnam to a hospital for evaluation. (Otherwise, he would have had to finish his thirteen months in Vietnam when he was released from the brig). He went AWOL in New York and was given an undesirable discharge.

When asked by Sheehan about the many lies and misrepresentations in his book, Lane admitted he did not check military records. "It's not relevant," Lane said.

"This kind of reasoning," Sheehan wrote, "amounts to a new McCarthyism, this time from the left. Any accusation, any innuendo, any rumor, is repeated and published as truth." An editor at Simon & Schuster, asked by Sheehan whether they compared the soldiers' tales to their military records, "equated the idea of searching the military records with taking a radical medical theory to the American Medical Association. 'They'd just say it was wrong,' he said. " The editor admitted to Sheehan that the book was published as an antiwar protest.

The same disrespect for the truth was in operation during the Winter Soldier hearings. After all the atrocities were dutifully taken down, the transcript was inserted into the Congressional Record by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, who asked the commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the many crimes, particularly those perpetrated by Marines.

"The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing," said historian Guenter Lewy in his book America in Vietnam. His history of the war was one of the first to rely on previously classified documents in the National Archives. "Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorizes.

One black Marine who testified at Winter Soldier did agree to talk with the investigators. Although he had claimed during the hearing that Vietnam was "one huge atrocity" and a "racist plot," he could provide no details of any actual crimes. Lewy said the question of atrocities had not occurred to the Marine until he left Vietnam. His testimony had been substantially "assisted" by a member of the Nation of Islam.

But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote, "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.

Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur. "Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. Those responsible were tired and punished.

http://4dw.net/jqueen/valor.html

It goes on but there isnt enough space for any more....
crimsonedge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:56 PM   #32
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,895
Ah but Wildane, you've missed it: your boy (O'Neill- the man interviewed in your CNN link) is quoted thusly:

His allegations that people committed war crimes in that unit, and throughout Vietnam, were lies.
My link was to show that there damn well were atrocities committed by our troops, contrary to the **very** impartial observer O'Neill. My Lai ring a bell?
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | sp | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | l
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2004, 12:57 PM   #33
Hormadrune
Sociopathic bully?
 
Hormadrune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 11,895
Doh- snuck it in while I was off doing work mid-post

You might not say that Wildane, but your boy did.
__________________
WoW-Ghostlands-US: Prae | sp | Prolonix | Horm | Ulfhednar | l
EQ: Hormadrune <Retired> <OFS> <CoI> <Affy> <CE>
Hormadrune is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.