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Old 05-04-2004, 12:59 PM   #201
Everclear
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Whoa whoa whoa there CNJ. God did not send his son because he hates sin. That is one of the most off base and ungodly things I have ever heard. That is one terrible assumption you have made.

Yes, but that twisted thinking allows them to justify feelings of hate that they feel, once again "interpreting" religion with a bias to justify arbitrary attitudes that they have.
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Old 05-04-2004, 01:15 PM   #202
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Well somehow you managed to do it. You took the thread and degraded it into some religious issue. The Pro-life movement only 'thinks' it is about religion. It isnt.
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:40 PM   #203
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Chiteng, this is the internet, people can talk about whatever they want anywhere they want. Get over it. You said your part and now others are saying whatever they want.
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Old 05-04-2004, 06:08 PM   #204
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...although, I personally do agree with Chit (gasp), the desire to shape public policy in a given way to me must be founded in something more substantial than "the Bible says so.." I also agree with him, that the desires are in fact grounded in other reasons, clouded by a ruse of religious propoganda.
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Old 05-04-2004, 09:37 PM   #205
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Default It's me.

Note: Skip this post and start reading the next if you don't care about who I am =)

People often come to these boards and say "it wasn't me, my little brother was playing." Well I just want to make it clear that it has always been me. Some will say "we know, cause you've always been the same ass" and that's fine. That's their/your right to believe.

A few years ago I left school because I had problems with my memory and writing abilities. Things that were cake only a few years back were so very hard. I would spend hours redoing outlines that teacher messed up, so I would have a good copy for my binder. I would spend hours making study sheets and binder covers and everything you can imagine... except the work I was supposed to do.

It wasn't until last year my doctor suggested it might be anxiety keeping me from facing the deadline of something required. Sure enough medicine helped but I still had problems with other things like a memory that was once good and now seemed non functional.

Well, for the last 4 months I have been seeing doctors and trying to get medication that might help. Tonight, for the first time, I took some Concerta. Its a drug for ADHD. I have to say, that for the first time in a long time I sat and watched a movie with my wife and didn't feel the need to do anything else. I didn't keep daydreaming and thinking of other things I wanted to or should do.

I said all that to say this; that with a single pill I already feel different. I am more patient and instead of firing off a 30 second answer I have actually put some time into posting and wasn't distracted too much by other things. Whether it lasts or not it has made me aware that I hadn't put much effort into posts and used very little scripture.

Certainly this approach won't matter to those who refuse to believe and don't accept God's word as more than anything than a book. I am addressing those who respond just as frequently saying that believe but not understanding what they profess to believe.

You won't be getting any backing off from me. I still believe there is one God and His word is clear. What you will get is probably less posts (because I am able to focus on one thing at a time and I have other things to do).

I would like to appologize for any short unthinking answers I have given people. In an effort to be more clear and offer more than just 'because the Bible says so' I will include more verses that say what I claim. This is partially to provide support for what I say, but also to keep me in practice. I already find myself remembering things I have forgotten in the past, and things that I am reading now. Big difference, I assure you.

This post is really long, and in an effort to shorten it I have made most of the verses links that open in a new window.

Let me get to it...
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Last edited by cnjmorris; 05-05-2004 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 05-04-2004, 11:57 PM   #206
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Some people don't give a fuck anymore

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Old 05-05-2004, 01:13 AM   #207
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God DOES tolerate sin, and he tolerates all his sinning children, he forgives them.
God does not tolerate sin. God finds it foul. Ephesians 2 talks about how we were formerly dead, trespassers, worldly, disobedient, lustful, children of wrath, sinners, transgressors, and most appropriately to this discussion we were far off (vs. 13). We were far off because sin separated us. The ONLY thing able to separate us from God is sin. Doesn't that give you an idea of how vile he finds it.

Verse 13 goes on to say that we are brought near by the blood of Christ. Does that mean the blood physically pulls us close? To say otherwise would be putting words in His mouth wouldn't it? No, it wouldn't. It is clear that this isn't what it means. It means that through the washing of the blood we are able to come back into His presence.

Yes, He tolerates our sinful nature. Yes, He loves the sinner. No, He doesn't accept sin in His presence. In the same way that Levitical priests used sacrifice to remove the people's sin Jesus used his sacrifice to remove our sin.

Hebrews 9:22-26

Hewbrews 10:1-4

The old system was made as a symbol of the new. Where bulls and goats failed, Christ succeeded, once for all.
Jude 1:24-25

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


“… became sin on our behalf”

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"


… which is being quoted from the Old Testament…here;

Psalms 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?


“…why are you so far from saving me.” I have heard people say that God turned His back on Christ at this point and that is they the curtain tore and the sky went dark. True or not Jesus says that God is far from saving Him. I think it is a fair conclusion that God distanced himself because Jesus became sin, and God could not remain in His presence.

What is my point? That God does NOT tolerate sinners. Christians are made unblemished in the presence of God through the intercession of Christ.

How dare you even put yourself in that sentence trying to be like God, or even fancying yourself to be like him.
I don’t see how saying that I don’t tolerate sin and He doesn’t tolerate sin is claiming any kind of equality. I am simply stating that I don’t tolerate it, the goal of any Christian should be to avoid sin. I was further anchoring my beliefs in the fact that God does not tolerate sin which means we should attempt to please Him. That does not in any way claim anything about me other than my attempt to want the same things God wants.

They interpret what he "said" putting words in his mouth, passing judgments on others (when I believe that is supposed to be God's job), and otherwise making others feel bad for any imperfections, (which they themselves make a religion out of admitting they also have... but since they ask for forgiveness for them... they get to "tolerate" other people).
There is a difference between trying to make people see their imperfections and seeing their nature as a sinner separated from God. I am not talking to Christians who are having trouble with sin. I am talking to people who compound their sin by ignoring the Word and yet claim to wear Christ’s name.

History tells us that Alexander the Great had a soldier in his army who developed a bad reputation. When the fighting became severe, the young man would start to retreat while everyone around him fought on. The general summoned this soldier, whose first name was also Alexander, and said: "I hear how you're behaving in battle. Young man, you either need to change your behavior or change your good name! I don't want the name Alexander to be associated with cowardice." (I have heard this story a dozen times, but copied it from http://www.nisbett.com/library/ir-name_of_god.html so I told it right).

You may think it’s a trite story, but do you think that Jesus is happy when people use His name and don’t change at all?

Invite Jesus into your heart? That is a start.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.


Buried in baptism
Walk in newness of life

Does walking in a new life sound like all you have to do is believe?

Hewbrews 10:26-29 - If we go on sinning there remains no sacrifice.

James 2:17-22 - Faith without works is dead. Even demons believe that God is one God, and shudder.

I can't recall a single instance in the Bible when Jesus hurt someone's feelings.
Matthew 16:23 - Get behind me Satan.

Matthew 3:6-8 - Brood of Vipers.

and that is the difference between your opinion and mine. God doesn't hate, he never hates. God LOVED us enough to send his son. Your view of god is stained by hatred, and it taints your message.
Whoa whoa whoa there CNJ. God did not send his son because he hates sin. That is one of the most off base and ungodly things I have ever heard. That is one terrible assumption you have made.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."


Surely you know this verse. Lots of people try to use it to state that belief is enough to throw open the gates of heaven, a point with which I would agree if 'belief' was defined as Jesus defined it.

John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;"


Regardless, in answer to both your quotes above. Jesus was sent because of God's hatred of sin. That sin seperated us from Him and He wanted us back. The second part of the verse John 3:16 says that those that believe shall not perish. That implies that those who don't will perish. If we were not a sinful humanity Jesus would not have been sent. Therefor, He was sent because of sin. He was also sent out of love. Without love He would not have been sent. What I stated was not untrue.

To the point that God never hates I present:
Deuteronomy 12:31

Deuteronomy 16:22

Isaiah 61:8

With that said I wanted to point out a few things in support of what I have said about Catholics. It isn't hatred or bigotry, it is substantiated disapproval of their doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 - Pay attention to where it says forbid marriage and abstain from food.

Romans 9 - Pay special attention to verse 11 and tell me if you think it relates to original sin.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:54 AM   #208
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I still believe you are off base by saying God sent Jesus because he was 'disgusted' with sin. You are twisting it around. God said he came because he loves us and finds us desirable. Also Jesus and the Father are one in the same. God placed sin on himself and became the sacrifice, it isnt like Jesus all the sudden wasnt God anymore and bore the sin. It isnt that God tolerates sin, it is that sin is now part of creation and as far as I know, he hasent abandoned us yet and is still here... which means sin is still in his presence.

Back to a old subject... You are thinking Im saying because Paul called himself a sinner that it is ok for me to sin because "heck, Paul the apostle did". Nope, Im saying "get real" and understand it is only because of his love(not his hate for sin) that you are able to have relationship with him. Face the fact that you are incomplete.

Anxiety is a sin... Guess that pill lets you be in his presence once again?
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:48 PM   #209
Shawna Hellsbain
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http://www.equip.org/free/DR508.pdf

some reading material for you.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:31 AM   #210
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“…why are you so far from saving me.” I have heard people say that God turned His back on Christ at this point and that is they the curtain tore and the sky went dark. True or not Jesus says that God is far from saving Him. I think it is a fair conclusion that God distanced himself because Jesus became sin, and God could not remain in His presence.

There is much in your post that I would disagree with, much of it having to do with you reading things into God's feelings having to do with hate, when only love ws mentioned. The fact that being far from God, does not imply he hates anything, but shows how imperfect we are in relation to him.

In particular I disagree with this. I do not believe God turned his back on him at all.. in fact I was taught that the tearing of the curtain between the holy and most holy places was symbolic that we were no longer seperated from God like we had previousely been. It was also suggested to me that the darkened sky and the other events concerning the crucifiction were gestures showing the magnitude of the event, and possibly sorrow that God felt. Once again, this kind of thing could not have been motivated in ANY way by hate, in my opinion. This kind of sacrifice could only have been done out of the purest love. To even claim that hate played a role in this gesture, or even Jesus' message of enduring love is something I would call blasphemy. It is unfortunate that this is all too often the element that is missed by fanatic Christian leaders.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:45 AM   #211
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oh.. and why I don't like when people h8:

1 John 2:9 - He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 2:11 - But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him

Which is why claiming you are helping people but really just judging, criticizing, and huting them doesn't cut it.
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:49 AM   #212
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Everclear, what's with the King James English? Are you roleplaying?
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:10 PM   #213
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The only type of RPing Everclear does involves, knee-high boots, a leather outfit, and a whip =o
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Old 05-06-2004, 01:24 PM   #214
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I like the KJ vers. =D
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