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Old 05-01-2004, 09:14 PM   #176
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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/Hands Luky a card of a publisher.
Sheesh.

God is about love.
Does love not exist anymore?

Stop complicatng every word from sombody else. Already People.
Can a point be made with less words?, with more meaning?, Yes.

Sorry to interupt.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:27 PM   #177
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Sometimes people claim to be Christian, but they don't have any clue what that means either. They maybe have never read the bible even. I like to call them people who ahve "fire insurance." They won't go to hell, but they don't live in a way that makes you think "Wow, what a loving Christ-like person!"
If you don't have a clue what being a Christian is then you aren't a Christian. Every example we have in the Bible is an adult choosing, making an actual decision, to be baptized and follow Christ's example.
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Old 05-01-2004, 10:40 PM   #178
Kulani Autumnwood
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God is Love
Love is Blind
Therefore...
I AM GOD

Sorry, just had to say it.

Anyways... I have divided Christians into four generic classes...

1) Wackjob Fanatics - These are the people who sit on public transit (such as trollies and busses) and read from the bible at the top of thier lungs during rush hour, usually dressed in either rags, clashing colors (such as bright pink shorts and a lime green tank top) or military fatigues (not the neat pressed look of active service military... the grungy "I'm a homeless wino wearing these so people will think I'm a veteren" ones). These are also the ones that leave vile, hate filled "literature" on car windows in malls on Sundays. And anyone who claims to have a two way conversation (not a prayer and answer system, actual "hi god, how are you today?" "oh, I'm fine but my holy lumbago is acting up again." conversations).

2) Holier Than Thou Fanatics - People who, while normally good people, seem to feel a need to put thier noses in everyone elses business. They spend a good deal of thier time answering difficult moral questions with "Well, if you were a REAL christian it wouldn't be an issue." They also tend to have an unholy fascination with thier neighbors sex lives (possibly because they don't get enough of thier own?) This is the kind of Christian who can say, with a perfectly straight face, that everyone is going to hell except them.

3) The Fake Christian - Often confused with one of the previous two types, these are the people who scream the loudest about any given sin... then do it themselves. But it's ok when they do it, because they know they aren't perfect and since they've been saved they're going to heaven anyway. A prime example of this would be the person who spends 6 days a week denouncing the evils of gambling... then plays Bingo on Sunday and happily suggests a church outing to a casino. Frequently these are older people, who most likely suddenly woke up one day with the realization that they are mortal and see this as a sure path to heaven. Besides, they got all thier sinning out of the way already, so may as well repent and it's all forgiven now! Also could be called the Have Your Cake and Eat It Too Christians.

4) Christians -- these are the people who do not see a need to shout thier religeon from the roof tops. They also don't particularly care whats going on in thier neighbors house. They might or might not attend church, and might or might not read the bible. But they do make every effort to live thier lives in accordance with thier beliefs. They don't tend to hide behind the "nobody is without sin" clause... they regret thier sins, which is entirely different from merely repenting them. In general, they do not attempt to convert people or preach to people unless the person in question indicates a willingness to BE converted.

<shrug> Unfortunately for Christianity in general, the first three types are MUCH more common than the fourth, so when you say "Christian" people get this immediate impression of one of the first three types and almost never think of the fourth type.

For the record, I am not ANY type of christian. I do believe in the Christian god... but I also believe in every other god... I'm a pantheon-ist at heart I suppose. Belief does NOT equal worship. Fortunately, because if I go by what I've seen presented to me then the christian god strikes me as pretty much a spoiled brat. "My sandbox, my rules, if you don't like it I am taking my ball and going home" type. <shrug> Am undoubtedly wrong... but then, I've met way too many types 1 through 3 and to date have met ONE type 4 family. In almost 30 years (ye gods I am getting OLD) thats not too good of odds.

Perhaps y'all might want to consider cleaning your own house before you start looking through my windows, hey?
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:00 PM   #179
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4) Christians -- these are the people who do not see a need to shout thier religeon from the roof tops. They also don't particularly care whats going on in thier neighbors house. They might or might not attend church, and might or might not read the bible. But they do make every effort to live thier lives in accordance with thier beliefs. They don't tend to hide behind the "nobody is without sin" clause... they regret thier sins, which is entirely different from merely repenting them. In general, they do not attempt to convert people or preach to people unless the person in question indicates a willingness to BE converted.
So you actually don't believe that Christians exist? Cause the first 3 obviously aren't acceptable and the last one may not even know what his beliefs are since he might not be reading the Bible. Of course if they don't go to church they are also not following the Word.

They Christian also says "nobody is without sin" not in defense of their own sin but in acknowledgement of their own sin.

As far as being willing to be converted... yeah, that is what we see in the New Testament. Because when the followers went and taught in the temples of other Gods of course they were welcomed pleasantly and people wanted to be converted to monotheism. They just posted their phone number and people just called up and begged to be converted.
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:20 PM   #180
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Let the one without sin cast the first stone.



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Old 05-02-2004, 02:06 AM   #181
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Nice quote except that four verses later Jesus says go and sin no more.

If you read the context the point is that the people bring the woman to Jesus and they want to know what to do with her. They don't care about her sin. They want to trap Jesus between the Law and the local law. One says stone her, and I believe that the local government said they could not.

Jesus essentially tells them that anyone who hasn't sinned thould be the first to carry out the law. I am not looking to carry out the law only make people aware.

Anything constructuve? Or just one liners?
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Old 05-02-2004, 05:33 AM   #182
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It does no good to wail on Kerryn. Let me ask you all this.

God created all men
Kerryn is a man
Thus, God created Kerryn.

If God created Kerryn, then it is presumption to assume you know the mind of God. You DONT.

However, If God created Kerryn, then God is responsible for Kerryn.
In fact, he is responsible for us ALL.

At least Kerryn is truthfull, and you must admire that.
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Old 05-02-2004, 08:46 AM   #183
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Kulani,

You really need to move, or start hanging out with a better crowd, if you really can't find many category 4s there. Or perhaps you just don't notice them as much becuase you have to get to know them pretty well before you can really pin them down.

As for the type threes, I would have to say that it is far better to believe in something and not be able to live up to it than it is to not believe in anything at all.
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Old 05-02-2004, 11:25 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by cnjmorris
So you actually don't believe that Christians exist? Cause the first 3 obviously aren't acceptable and the last one may not even know what his beliefs are since he might not be reading the Bible. Of course if they don't go to church they are also not following the Word.
That is kind of my point... except you have it all twisted around and confused with your particular churches religeous dogma. Religeon is in the heart, not in how slavishly you can mouth the appropriate words at the appropriate time. It's not how much you tithe, or which side of the alter you bend knee on, or what color cloth you wear.

They Christian also says "nobody is without sin" not in defense of their own sin but in acknowledgement of their own sin.
Real (type four in my example) christians use it that way... but there are a very sizeable portion that use it to defend thier sin.

As far as being willing to be converted... yeah, that is what we see in the New Testament. Because when the followers went and taught in the temples of other Gods of course they were welcomed pleasantly and people wanted to be converted to monotheism. They just posted their phone number and people just called up and begged to be converted.
And if they don't want to convert, by god we'll MAKE them convert! By the sword!

You claim your god is a god of love... and yet, his followers often include some of the most hate filled vicious people in history. See the Crusades... and realize that even when you aren't using physical violence, intruding your beliefs on another against thier will and threatening eternal damnation if they don't immediately follow your particular brand of faith *IS* the same thing, just not as physical.

Originally Posted by gojirra monk
As for the type threes, I would have to say that it is far better to believe in something and not be able to live up to it than it is to not believe in anything at all.
I obviously did not express myself well... again, it comes down to whats in the heart. The type threes I mentioned do not BELIEVE in christianity, not the way type fours do (and even type ones and most type twos)... they're grasping at straws so to speak. Mouthing the words without real feeling behind them.

Personally, I'd be ashamed to worship a diety to whom words were more important than intent/belief/feeling/actions... it's all part of a whole, you can't knowingly commit a great sin (such as murder) then the next day "repent" and it's all better... there is such a thing as untruth you know. I do not believe in the so-called "conversions" of anyone on death row for example... they're merely hoping, since thier view of Christianity is that y'all are unthinking sheep who will believe whatever another sheep bleats, that they will get a sudden reprieve if they can convince you they're wearing the same color fleece.

Not saying thats true (that all christians are unthinking sheep)... just saying that is the impression a good many of them have, and they're using YOUR religeon as a TOOL, a wedge or lever if you will, to pry them out of the situation thier own actions got them into.

There is a million miles between belief and word... you can fake the words, but you can't fake belief. Sadly, since humans are fallible and belief doesn't change anything you can SEE, the only one who can judge belief is the diety in question.

Long winded, rambling, but I just woke up 8P
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Old 05-02-2004, 04:21 PM   #185
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cnjmorris, why are you trying to correct me? give it a rest man, I wasnt posting in opposition to you. I quoted a scripture and said a feeling I have. dont try to combat that or tell me what, why, when, or how. you were way off thinking Im saying it is ok to sin because paul said he was the greatest of sinners or whatever you were trying to get at. you trip me out sometimes because you think everyone is out to get you and you have to prove them wrong.

if you dont have a constant sin or problem you struggle with then you arent human, so stop coming off as being so beyond us and perfect.

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Old 05-03-2004, 12:08 AM   #186
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A bit more than a one liner this time

First of all, this one liner has exactly done what it was supposed to do. I didnt want to hurt someone or someone's feeling. I just wanted to show that "most of" Christians are hypocritical. Bible and preacher all talk about love and comprehension, but they have a tendency to just alk about it and do nothing. Historicaly, look how many war were started in the name of a God of mercy!! It isnt a bash at God himself, just a bash at those who speak in His name. (Going to stop capitalise every word, no offense given)

Faith and beliefs are a personnal matter. You are the one who is going to believe in a god or a philosophy. You cant force people to believe in the same thing you believe. Your christian god is a good one. Love, sins and do and dont's are good things and good laws to be followed. Even I try to follow those principles, simply because they are common sense and not because they are godly words. I dont want to kill, I dont want to take the wife of my neighbour and I dont want to ... (put nearly whatever commandment here). But this is my view of things. This is what is socially and philosophically correct. I dont need a superior being to tell me what is right or wrong.

Christians (most of them, not all) or whatever other religious zealot exists have great principles, but trend to forget them when they need to apply them on themselves. The bible speak of understanding, but in this very thread, we see christians refusing to understand that people can live without faith. Uh?? Doesnt sounds right. Bible, and God through the holy writting, say "thou shall not kill", but those who kill in the name of god are legion. Double standard again?

I choosed to not believe at an early age. And I didnt choosed to do it without knowledge. I read the bible and the coran and even some obscur other religious books. None of them told me what I needed to know. I live a good life without any religious insight. I am even pretty sure that I live in better standards than most of Christians. I live through my own standards and try to raise 3 kids within the respect of certain moral beliefs. "Dont do to other what you dont others do to you." This is the most precious precept I can teach them. And, surprise, it can be read in the bible too. Can you say you have never done harm to others? I cant say it, I know it. But I try to live with that in mind. And I dont need a holy book to tell me what to do. And I dont go to others telling them "You are wrong, you shouldnt act like this, hear the words!!"

This is what this one liner was about. Double standards. Do as I say, not as I do. We all do it, but some of us dont take a "holier than thou" attitude when doing it.


Discussion about religion are fun, but they are dangerous. You are touching a point deep in the feelings of everyone. If you accept what the other say without saying he is wrong, you have done a goo part of the way on the road of understanding. And no holy book will help you understanding the others. Just your common sense.
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Old 05-03-2004, 05:22 AM   #187
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if you dont have a constant sin or problem you struggle with then you arent human, so stop coming off as being so beyond us and perfect.
I have never claimed or pretended to be perfect, in fact this has been discussed before. Just because I talk about living a life where you actually have to sacrifice your desires some time it does not mean that I am claiming to be perfect.

Christians sin, sometimes daily. Being a Christian means you are trying. When you leave work and head straight to a bar each night and get drunk then the odds are you aren't trying (I don't know what being an alcoholic feels like and I won't presume you aren't trying to stop). Planning a robbery two weeks in advance and carrying through is not trying. Cheating on your wife every week at a specific time is not trying. Coming back from lunch 15 minutes late every day is not trying.
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Old 05-03-2004, 05:30 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Kulani Autumnwood
There is a million miles between belief and word... you can fake the words, but you can't fake belief. Sadly, since humans are fallible and belief doesn't change anything you can SEE, the only one who can judge belief is the diety in question.
If you can't see the difference, then why are you judging them?
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Old 05-03-2004, 09:24 AM   #189
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Paul the apostle started out by calling himself the 'least of the apostles' and then said he was the 'least of the saints(christians)' and then he flat out said "Im the greatest of sinners". He spoke of not wanting to sin but that he couldnt stop and he speaks of a 'thorn in the flesh'(chronic sin?, demonic attack?). He wrote most of the NT and was this humble and in touch with his brokeness and humanity. Wish most cookie cutter fundamentalist would grab a hold of that and get off their high horses and be real with themselves and to those around them.

Everyone has heard "you suck and God is good/holy/righteous/whatever, so believe in him and get 'saved'" but why should they? All they see is a church where people all act the same, talk the same, and dress the same and that uniform of a people are suppose to be representing the creator of the universe? It is like they have totally lost touch with the God and the world and risk becoming irrelevant. It really trips me out to see people file into a building to hear some person preach and never understand that that isnt a relationship with God. They conform to whatever is spoken and are never willing to study for themselves without the aid of something someone else has written on that subject. They read the Bible and keep the grid someone else has placed on them and never go outside of that due to the 'fear of being deceived'.

Alright Im ranting on why I feel 99% of the church is useless at reaching the world we live in. Guess what Im saying is if you have something to say then get some personality and dont sound like some guy behind a pulpit barking scripture at people. That does nothing to touch their heart(the thing God wants), it just engages their defenses.

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Old 05-03-2004, 10:42 AM   #190
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He spoke of not wanting to sin but that he couldnt stop and he speaks of a 'thorn in the flesh'(chronic sin?, demonic attack?). He wrote most of the NT and was this humble and in touch with his brokeness and humanity.
Most scholars believe his 'thorn in the flesh' was failing eye site and the need for someone to write for him later in life (there are references to people writing for him).

As far as being humble and in touch with humanity... read some of his letter and how he addresses Christians who are sinning. I'm not saying that he wasn't humble or in touch. I am simply saying that he had a proper view of how digusting God finds sin.
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Old 05-03-2004, 04:24 PM   #191
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forget it. it is totally useless to discuss anything with you cnj.

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Old 05-03-2004, 05:52 PM   #192
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Glad to see you put some effort into expressing your views this time Nosfy. And in expanding upon the topic you touched on you bring up a good point.

I won't claim to be a biblical scholar, so my arguments here come sheerly from what I have been told in Sunday school and by Christians in the world and on this board.

CNJ brings up that it is acknowledgement, not defense, of sin that Christians do. To me it's simple BS to even talk about that. Of course nobody is "without sin", because the ins described by Christianity are a fundamental part of human nature. If everyone adhered strictly to Christian doctrine we would either collapse as a society, or simply cease to be human.

Christians seem to firmly believe in life as a means to an end, and that the afterlife should be what we concern ourselves with; sinning unrepentantly puts you in Hell, which is a nasty place. As much as it gets denied, this is little more than a scare tactic; terrorism in the purest sense of the word. The church tells you to deny the traits that make us human, albelling them as sin. But to what end? If I'm right, and the church is wrong, what would they stand to gain from converting everyone to their false doctrine? The answer, of course, is power. The Catholic church has, only until very recently, been a tremendously powerful political and even military force in the world, due to the unquestioningly loyal nature of it's followers.

But I'm hesitant to so quickly pass religion off as so much wool over the eyes. Many believers refuse to commit to a specific denomination, instead preferring a more "personal" view. So is belief genuine? Is there really something out there worth worshipping?

I think it's a fallacy to say "God does not exist", but rather, the Christian "omnipotent creator-god" does not exist. In fact, it is entirely possible there are no supernatural deities out there, yet the very concept of God is perfectly sound.

The answer is in memes. Abstract concepts, communicable ideas, collective thoughts. Things people can believe in, and share, without there actually existing anything other than a configuration of neurons in the brain. And that configuration cannot be called "a meme", but rather the psychological effects can. Look up memes if you're more interested in some meme-theories.

So there can exist a meme of religion, of belief in God, that people can share, and revolve their lives around, without there being anything supernatural governing our lives.

As for the origin of the meme itself... the most interesting and likely idea I have come across is an explanation by Douglas Adams. I don't want to paraphrase the entire point, so I'll simply recommend you check out the section entitled "Is there an artificial God?" in The Salmon of Doubt, which you can probably find at a library.

Need to end this post, but I'll give some more thoughts later.
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:18 AM   #193
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First, we have to ask why we must ask for forgiveness in the first place?
I went to church this weekend. I needed to drop my fiancee off as she was speaking to the organist about a selection of hymns. Much to some people's chagrin I imagine, I didn't burst into flames as I walked in. But as she chatted away I listened to the service. I apologize if I haven't got the words entirely correct but the prayer went along the lines of;

Forgive me for doing the things I ought not to have done. Forgive me for not doing the things I ought to have done. Forgive me for not caring as much as I should, forgive me for caring about those I should not.

I looked at the congregation of pensioners and here's what I'll never understand. I've been pretty good lately. I swore a few times in temper and genuinely regretted it afterwards, I've paid the correct attention to my family and been charitable by making a fairly hefty donation to cancer research. I even paid double the church fees for this wedding because belief or no belief I understand that the £150 they wanted for the service doesn't go anywhere near the costs to run the church that day. I've not been gawping at other women, haven't stolen, been slovenly and so on. But here's these little old ladies begging for absolution. I wonder what sins they committed. Perhaps they cheated at bingo.

These people had nothing but guilt yet I felt great because I'd been a good boy. Draw your conclusions from that but I reckon I'm enjoying life a lot more then these terrible sinners. I make the same sacrifices as a christian because they are sins to my belief. I'm not leading some life of debauchery as some people seem to imagine.

Feel free to ask for forgiveness, but make sure you are asking for forgiveness from the right person, for the right reason. Don't go to church on Sunday, pray to a god who wont answer, and expect those that you have truly offended to feel better.

We are NOT holy, we are NOT good, each and every one of us is enslaved to sin. It is our fallen nature (given to us when Adam and Eve rebelled, I know it sucks thats a separate issue though).
Years of archaeological digs and science has told us that there were not two creatures named Adam and Eve who were suddenly deposited on this earth to create the human species. It has been proven that we eveolved from primates, through neanderthal man, to where we stand today. Science tells me that we're still evolving, gaining an extra inch in average height every 50 years.

Skeletons from 500 years ago are dug up with elongated coccyx bones, fossils dating back further show a rudimentary tail. This is a prime example of refuting concrete evidence which is contrary to the bible. It simply does not meet the agenda to believe in evolution so it is denied.

Anyone want to start burning people and screaming "heresy" yet?

Now, back to Kerryn - would you mind telling me why you think God is to blame for your unbelief?
To be to blame he would have to exist. I don't blame him any more then I blame Santa. What I'm saying is that if I'm wrong and he does exist and is all powerful and created me then he's the one responsible for my disbelief.

I read how you felt He "ignored" you, or ignored prayers, and did not grant signs.
No. At first I thought that he ignored me. Then I understood why I was getting no response. I respect you Lukaria so please do not share your experiences of "signs" with me since as a sceptic I will only pick holes in them. And that's the problem in itself.

People keep sharing their signs with me and their is always a valid reason why those signs are unreal. We've had an odd few weeks of weather. Seems to rain every weekday and is sunny over the weekend and bank holidays. Some people would be screaming "it's a sign" whereas I look at the meteorlogical database and spot that yesterday was the first sunny bank holiday we've had in the last 18. Law of averages came to play there I think. Chiteng and Voltaire have it half right "For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough"

Sadly he never took it one step further. "For those with faith, no amount of evidence to the contrary is enough" and once again I'll refute we've had no proof whatsoever. I'll settle for one piece of proof that God exists.

I will say this - God has given us a bible
Can you offer any evidence that it wasn't a fictional novel or something passed off as true by profiteers and con men.

I can quote and link you sources that are extremely credible and reliable - SCIENTIFIC sources.
Please do. I haven't decided never to believe, only to state that at this time I do not. If you show me one credible source to prove that God exists I'll belive he exists.

He has given us ample evidence for belief. Imho
No Lukaria. If he'd given us ample proof there would be no un-believers. We'd all believe in God, we'd all believe in the same God and we'd all believe that there was one law by which he would have us live our lives. There would be no war, or terrorism, and we'd alll be good moral people because we'd be damn scared of being anything else. Nobody would be unemployed, we'd not adulter, we'd honour and love our partners till the end of time. If any proof existed the world would be a better place.

Christians are no different than others on this earth when it comes to sinning - we all sin. Ares said we think we are "better." That is not so
I get the distinct feeling that there are a high number of people on this board that do in fact believe that Catcen believes he is better then us. Not just the un-believers but the religius amongst us that simply feels he goes too far.

Let me be clear - it does not mean we do NOT sin, it means we can choose not to sin,
I choose not to sin also Lukaria but not because of God. I choose not to sin because it invariably hurts others when I do. The only sin that I can be accused of in the eyes of the church is that I had sex and children before marriage, and that I do not believe. The end product is the same in that I, like you, do what I feel is right, and I do things that even you would have to acknowledge was good. And we all know that there are people out there who do what they feel is right in the name of God, stoning others, blowing up a school, telling people that their lack of belief means their love for their family is a sham etc.

I know I got preachy there a bit - I tried not to, I apologize. I hope you read it regardless.
Whilst I do not share your beliefs I'll always take the time to listen because I understand that it's not only important for you to love God but to show your love. And in all your posts you have said nothing which would make me believe that your love of God is a problem for others. This is why I read your post and give you respect, and why I have none for Catcen

If you don't have a clue what being a Christian is then you aren't a Christian. Every example we have in the Bible is an adult choosing, making an actual decision, to be baptized and follow Christ's example.
Now it's funny that you would pipe up here because you are exactly the person Lukaria describes with one exception. You have no idea what it is to be christian despite reading the bible and I and others frequently think "Wow, what a loving Christ like person"

Which leads me nicely into;
2) Holier Than Thou Fanatics - People who, while normally good people, seem to feel a need to put thier noses in everyone elses business. They spend a good deal of thier time answering difficult moral questions with "Well, if you were a REAL christian it wouldn't be an issue." They also tend to have an unholy fascination with thier neighbors sex lives (possibly because they don't get enough of thier own?) This is the kind of Christian who can say, with a perfectly straight face, that everyone is going to hell except them.
Really flowing well this post. Anyone recognize ther person Kulani is describing?

So you actually don't believe that Christians exist? Cause the first 3 obviously aren't acceptable and the last one may not even know what his beliefs are since he might not be reading the Bible. Of course if they don't go to church they are also not following the Word.
Even better Catcen in that you are number 2 or number 3 incarnate and now you're saying it's unacceptable. I agree.

There is another type that was missed. Those that read the bible, live by it, and do good things. 4 and 5 are the only acceptable ones for me. Reading the bible isn't important as long as you do what is right.

Let the one without sin cast the first stone.

&

Nice quote except that four verses later Jesus says go and sin no more.
But you acknowledge that you sin, therefore you are going in direct contradiction to your bible. Jesus demands pefection where non can exist.

[quote]Jesus essentially tells them that anyone who hasn't sinned thould be the first to carry out the law. I am not looking to carry out the law only make people aware.[quote]Commonly referred to as passing the buck. It's cowardly and pitiful.

As for the type threes, I would have to say that it is far better to believe in something and not be able to live up to it than it is to not believe in anything at all.
I'd agree but you have to take the full paragraph in context. It's not about believing yet not being able to live up to it, but not being able to live up to it yourself yet condemning others that cant.
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:18 AM   #194
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Christians sin, sometimes daily. Being a Christian means you are trying.
Oh yes, I'll grant you, you're trying.

I don't believe in God or Christ yet I am trying to do what is right, and for the most part succeeding. Am I a christian after all?

I am simply saying that he had a proper view of how digusting God finds sin.
I think he had a proper view of how disgusting you find sin.

This thread has never been about what God believes is sinning. God doesn't mention abortion or contraception. This is all about you and your judgement of others. Just as was the smoking thread, and the homosexuality thread and every other un-related post in which you've brought up the bible.

If I've got it wrong then I may go to hell but at least we'll have each other for company.
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Old 05-04-2004, 06:35 AM   #195
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I think he had a proper view of how disgusting you find sin.
I would take that as a compliment but I know that it was meant sarcastically and that it isn't true. The reality is that Paul was a lot more aware of it and I often see it too lightly. Make no mistake, God finds sin repulsive. He hates it enough to send His Son.
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Old 05-04-2004, 08:49 AM   #196
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You calling it hate won't effect me either. Of course you are going to call it hate. That is the popular response to intollerance. I don't tollerate sin, and God doesn't tollerate sin


I love how some Christians.. and others who claim to worship God... often forget they AREN'T GOD!

God DOES tolerate sin, and he tolerates all his sinning children, he forgives them. How dare you even put yourself in that sentence trying to be like God, or even fancying yourself to be like him. You are a mockery and a laughing stock. Your pride and self rightousness IS of Biblical proportion. How funny that a wretch like you would assume that you are fit to tolerate anything other than your own existence? It is for all of us to fall upon the mercy of God to tolerate us (in my opinion), you, my friend are no one to "tolerate" anyone else.

Do you think you are perfect? If so, I hate to inform you, you aren't. If you realize you are not perfect, then please proceed to "when you ARE perfect, then you can judge what is right and wrong in others... until then leave that job to God kkthx~" line

It always amazes me how Christians can claim to worship God, yet take it fully upon themselves to do his job. They interpret what he "said" putting words in his mouth, passing judgements on others (when I believe that is supposed to be God's job), and otherwise making others feel bad for any imperfections, (which they themselves make a religion out of admitting they also have... but since they ask for forgiveness for them... they get to "tolerate" other people).

I can't recall a single instance in the Bible when Jesus hurt someone's feelings. Would it be too much to ask that you stop pretending to be God, and maybe try to be like Jesus instead? Jesus was a nice guy, who would never hurt anyone. He tried to help people and bring them the word of God written in a message of love.. I know it might not be as thrilling as pretending to be the Big Guy, and passing out judgements and condemnations... but you might have more friends... and will prolly turn more people on to Christianity... that is.. if you ACTUALLY followed Jesus...

Just a thought
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Old 05-04-2004, 08:56 AM   #197
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He hates it enough to send His Son

and that is the difference between your opinion and mine. God doesn't hate, he never hates. God LOVED us enough to send his son. Your view of god is stained by hatred, and it taints your message.
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Old 05-04-2004, 09:53 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Luky
God loves each and every one of us. All the time. It never changes. NO MATTER WHAT WE DO HE WILL ALWAYS LOVE US! Just as we will always love our children.

So, why is there even a need for forgiveness if God loves us so much then? Because He is also perfectly Holy, and He CANNOT be in a relationship with anyone who is not. Period.

In order to breach the gap that exists between God and us (humans), forgiveness must be granted.
Lukaria, I think you are using the word relationship a bit odly. First off, if God is our creator, then he is automatically in a relationship with us in the sense that he sustains our existence. So, in that sense he is in a relationship with everyone from Charles Manson to the Pope.

If there is a God and he loves us, then how could there not be a state of affairs where the statement "God loves you" is true? Just that state of affairs by itself demonstrates that God is in a relationship with all those he loves. If that is everyone, then he can and is in a relationship even with the most unholy.

Finally, how can that which is perfect (allegedly God) change the fundamental condition of imperfection? If we are imperfect by our very natures, then there is no bridging the gap by a perfect God. In other words, a perfect being created us with our imperfections, so there should be no hope for reversal of that condition. Of course, that raises the question as to how a perfect being can create anything other than perfection, but we can save that little tidbit for later.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:18 PM   #199
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Whoa whoa whoa there CNJ. God did not send his son because he hates sin. That is one of the most off base and ungodly things I have ever heard. That is one terrible assumption you have made.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:23 PM   #200
Kulani Autumnwood
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Originally Posted by gojirra monk
If you can't see the difference, then why are you judging them?
I'm not judging religeous belief -- I am judging actions without regard for a supposed "change of heart" that's timing seems rather... questionable. The point I was attempting to make is that I personally cannot judge belief so I have to go by actions.

Originally Posted by Kerryn
There is another type that was missed. Those that read the bible, live by it, and do good things. 4 and 5 are the only acceptable ones for me. Reading the bible isn't important as long as you do what is right.
My intent for 4 was to also include those who read the bible/attend church etc. Thats why I used the phrase might/might not -- not to indicate (which I see now is how it came across) that they're "hit or miss" with regard to thier devotions, but to encompass the full spectrum of "seldom does" "sometimes does" and "always does".
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