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Old 04-30-2004, 05:53 AM   #151
cnjmorris
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If I have contributed to your lack of faith then you have to seriously question what you call faith.

Regardless, I don't feel any more guilty then you do. Jesus spoke to a rich man and told him to sell all he had and give it to the poor. The rich man went away sad. Jesus could have said 'close enough' but He didn't.

I do not feel guilt because I tell people about Jesus or because I tell them that they are not reading the Bible they profess to follow. If they choose
not to listen they can only blame themselves.

Jesus says:
"Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me." Matthew 10:40

Despite how people want to change it Jesus tells his disciples to teach all things that hHe has taught them. That includes the command to teach all things. So this whole idea of religion being private is just more watering down. I'm sorry you don't believe. God is sorry you don't believe. You will also be. It takes no interpretation to tell you that.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:23 AM   #152
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If I have contributed to your lack of faith then you have to seriously question what you call faith.
Are you on drugs? It's very clear that I did question what I called faith and I decided I had none.

More then that faith demands that you question it at all times or else it cannot be faith, only fanatacism. If those dozen bibles were found tommorow and were carbon dated to 2000 years ago together with the disclaimer at the front, the Christian religion would fall apart. You would simply have faith that the evidence wasn't true because I suspect you have just been brainwashed too much by overzealous parents.

I do not feel guilt because I tell people about Jesus
Nor should you but really, ...what a load of complete and utter bullshit you pompous arrogant twat. You don't tell people about Jesus. You tell people how they should live their life and use God to re-inforce that. You'd stick your nose into other peoples business regardless of God but this is just really handy for you.

So this whole idea of religion being private is just more watering down. I'm sorry you don't believe. God is sorry you don't believe. You will also be. It takes no interpretation to tell you that.
Even the religious people in the community are going to tear this post to shreds. There's an awful lot of terrorists out there and religious fundamentalists who think the way you do.

Your religion teaches you that God will forgive all who ask for it. If he exists he might be sorry I don't believe but it is he who only has himself to blame.

If he created me then he gave me a scientific mind which does not believe in him without empyrical evidence, he refused the handful of prayers I asked, even when I never ever made a selfish prayer and he now refuses to send any sort of sign.

But if I don't believe then surely he'll give me forgiveness at the pearly gates.

This does not satisfy your agenda though since my lack of fear of god means I will not life my life by your rules, not Gods, yours. If their is a God you are right to fear him though since it is you who abuses his power.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:24 AM   #153
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Catcen is starting to sound like a JW, or maybe a Mormon.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:30 AM   #154
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There's one 'M' too many in that sentence Veo.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:41 AM   #155
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Catcen is starting to sound like a JW, or maybe a Mormon.
Nope, they are both groups of misguided. I'm not part of a group, I am just a Christian.


Kerryn,

God gave us His word to share and to learn and teach from. I do not fear that God will change His mind and decide to punish me for sharing His message. If you choose not to believe that is your choice.

You say you are done. You have been done. You just talk and don't listen. You spout and don't reason. You won't be happy until I keep my God and His word to myself. You will continue to be disappointed.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:52 AM   #156
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Well Kerryn, you make a very good case for existencialism. Empiricly, you cannot be refuted, as I am sure you know.

However, you overlook a couple things in your 'surge' of righteousness.

The biggest being, 'IF' there actually IS a god, and IF he is actually paying attention to YOU, then the entity we call 'God' can easily disabuse you of some of the tenants you hold so dear.

He could for example reveal himself.herself/itself to you, then what will you do? Commit yourself to an asylum?

There are 'other' less dramatic things such an entity could do, because in the end, its all a question of 'point of view'.

I used to be, if anything, even more rabid than you are. I am sure you dont find that hard to believe. But I found out one day, that I didnt have all the
answers, and I could not even come close to explaining a few things.

I cannot, and would not presume to try and persuade you to accept.
But I can say that someday, you might become a bit bewildered.
The trouble with existencialism is that it has a poor retirement policy.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:08 AM   #157
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You can't push something like religion onto others, they will continue to reject, as most things you try to push on people.

Friend of mine from NZ that I've known for a while totally doesn't believe in a God. I didn't try and force anything upon her and 5 years later...guess what? She is reading the bible! This may not mean she believes in God but that she is curious. If someone wants to believe they will pick it up on their own in their own time.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:30 AM   #158
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Don't be dissapointed then when I continue to call your persecution for what it is. Do you wonder why I respect Lukaria and not you? You share the same god yet it is you who is disliked for your religion, and the way you use it. Not just by me but by many.

I talk but I also listen and unlike yours I think my mind is open when my ears are. The problem is you don't have anything interesting to say.



Chiteng, I agree that the retirement benefits are poor. Thats all that upsets me about my lack of faith. I'd like to think there is something more then all the war, hatred, persecution and murder that we have in this world.

But it's funny you use the pension analogy because it's quite true. I don't believe there is a retirement benefit so I don't pay into the pension fund. Religion seems very much like me to be like paying into the fund on the belief there's a payout in the end.

It all seems like giving to receive anyway.

I've never said I refuse to believe in god. I simply state that at this time I do not believe he exists. If he presented himself before me or even gave me a sign I'd believe again. It would have to be fairly specific though like me saying "God, show me you exist and move this pen across the table" and it moving. I'd settle for a lightning strike outside right now, I'd even settle for the lights in the building suddenly going out as I post this.

I wouldn't settle for a man with a beard walking around the city tonight telling everyone he is the son of the lord. I wouldn't settle for someone claiming to be a virgin to announce she was pregnant. Happens all the time where I live.

It's true that God may have chosen to ignore me since I don't believe but he also ignored me when I did. I just came to the thought that maybe he wasn't there to ignore anyone.

I don't believe I'm rabid against those who believe Chiteng. I don't like those people who are arrogant enough to try and enforce their way of life upon others.

Religion is an excuse for these people.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:31 AM   #159
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While we're turning this into a religion debate I want to make a few points.

One, is that faith and proof are mutually exclusive, by definition. If you had proof, then faith would be superfluous in the first place, and it would be pointless to talk about "believing"; everyone would just accept the evidence.

Second, that it's far more likely we got Genesis in reverse, than that it's factual or even metaphorical. Man created God, not vice versa. The remainder of any evidence you want to claim can easily be attributed to superstition, and the power of suggestion.

And finally, that it isn't pointless to debate about religion, under one certain condition: that everyone keep an open mind. I'm perfectly open to the idea that, some day, someone can convince me there is a god and the universe is his contrivance. I don't see it as likely, but wouldn't I be a fool to close my mind to the possibility? Christians must do the same; otherwise they are truly a member of the flock following thier 'shepherd'.

I don't know if I said this before, but in general I have nothing against religious types. It's the ones who refuse to question their beliefs, the sheep, that I have issues with. And likewise, the atheists who just think it's the cool thing to be, or simply thought church was boring but got dragged to it by their parents, disgust me. With about 2000 years of iron-fisted control over any scientific thought, organized religion is going to take a little more than apathy to stand up to.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:32 AM   #160
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For people believing in a God who is love, you are all showing a lot of anger and hate.

Just my 2 "atheist" copper.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:47 AM   #161
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You can take your trite little remark (and your two coppers) back, thanks.

Exactly what I'm talking about. All the clever snobbery in the world doesn't make a rational argument. I don't even know what kind of a point you're making, except a vague jab at Christians for not being saints. They never claim to be, so cease flailing your straw man.

Ignorant fools disgust me.
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Old 04-30-2004, 08:14 AM   #162
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Since this has gone from abortion to rape to God which can associate with each other and are controversial issues.

But another controversial issue...

ALIEnS!!!!

What if you are impregnated by an alien?

Did God create aliens or did they sort of create themselves?

Was Bush behind Roswell? Was this where he got his training on cover up?

/cue X-Files music

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Old 04-30-2004, 08:29 AM   #163
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You can take your trite little remark (and your two coppers) back, thanks.

Exactly what I'm talking about. All the clever snobbery in the world doesn't make a rational argument. I don't even know what kind of a point you're making, except a vague jab at Christians for not being saints. They never claim to be, so cease flailing your straw man.

Ignorant fools disgust me.
When I read what he said Ares it was my opinion that he was basically saying that some of the people who are claiming to be christians are showing an awful lot of hate. I don't think he was referring to you Ares but Catcen.
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Old 04-30-2004, 08:40 AM   #164
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When I read what he said Ares it was my opinion that he was basically saying that some of the people who are claiming to be christians are showing an awful lot of hate. I don't think he was referring to you Ares but Catcen.
And when I read Ares reply it was my opinion that Ares was letting the guy know that Christians aren't perfect. Yes, there are times we are overcome with hate and frustration just like any non Christian. Being a Christian has nothing to do with emotions. Only difference is we ask the Lord to help us overcome those feelings.
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Old 04-30-2004, 09:25 AM   #165
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Oh I know he wasn't talking to me.

But I'm going to, as they say, "call a spade a spade". Just because the guy happens to share a similar viewpoint, doesn't mean I'm going to defend his stupidity.

The funny thing about most simplistic attacks (such as that) on religion is that there is a reason they are simple: they're meaningless. Organized religion hasn't survived against all proof (remember what I said about proof and faith) for thousands of years, only to be struck down by a pithy insult.
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Old 04-30-2004, 01:56 PM   #166
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Ok, maybe I missed something here so I need to check.

You're having a go at Nosfy right? ( hence the two coppers remark )


Because I can't see what's wrong with his post. One of the fundamental tenets of the christian religion is that you never give in to anger and hate and there are people in this post who claim to be religious but show nothing but scorn, hate, bigotry and anger towards others.

I appreciate that not everyone is perfect. There might be a christian who lost it with me today, goes home, thinks it over and admits to themself that they were harsh. I understand that, because I too go too far and question myself upon later introspection.

But what my little search shows Ares is that this isn't the case. This is a person who shows nothing but judgement and bigotry day in and day out.

If I misunderstood you Ares then please correct me.
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Old 04-30-2004, 03:19 PM   #167
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Kerryn,

Well no one I know has ever claimed you were stupid. I doubt God is ignoring you. It is just that we all have a role to play. When I was 29, I would have been chanting 'Right on limey brother right on!'

Criteria is also subjective. You are still young yet.
Just please do consider that it is just as bad to make fun of people,
SIMPLY because they have an absurd belief system. At least they have one =) Absurd or not =) And United Pentacostal Women are damn good looking
(for example. Not endorsing any religion)
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Old 04-30-2004, 03:51 PM   #168
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Because I can't see what's wrong with his post. One of the fundamental tenets of the christian religion is that you never give in to anger and hate and there are people in this post who claim to be religious but show nothing but scorn, hate, bigotry and anger towards others.
Yes and no. See, they get by with that whole 'reconciliation' loophole. Do whatever you want, repent on your deathbed, and get into Heaven.

So Christians never do claim to be perfect. They just claim to somehow be "better" for their beliefs.

Only the most fundamental of Christian sects have a rigid enough definition of the tenets of the Christian faith that you can attack them on a hypocricy. The rest pick and choose whatever is most convenient.

Plus, I'm really fucking sick and tired of one-liners.
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Old 05-01-2004, 08:45 AM   #169
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I'm still bloody confused by this.

I've seen the idea of repentance before and there's nothing wrong with it until it's used as "I'm going to piss off a lot of people now, but I'm allowed to do it since I'll beg for forgiveness next week"

That's not the case here because Catcen doesn't even question that he might be out of line. How can you repent if you don't accept when you are wrong? And how can you accept you are wrong when you blindly believe that you are right?

This to me seems very much like pretending to be a christian whilst doing very un-christian like things would you not admit.

I think Nosfy hit the nail on the head Ares. I really do. He never claims that Christians are supposed to be saints but to suggest that it's fine to be completely unchristian because nobody is perfect seems a little,...odd.
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Old 05-01-2004, 09:01 AM   #170
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I give Christians a little more slack in that department, because I haven't met too many Christians who even claim they need to be emotionally perfect. Whether or not this is right of them is strangely irrelevant, because everyone seems to have their own definition of Christian faith. This is one thing I despise about them, but it's a reality I have to live with. I can hardly fault people for not adhering to something they don't believe in, can I?

So I'd rather take issue with their complete lack of centralization, agreement, or standarized doctrine, than try to blast them for hypocricies many of them never even commit.

Additionally, Nosfy's remark fails to even make a point. If he wants to bring out some Bible quotes giving Christians a directive to not be hateful, then that works. What he said, doesn't.
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Old 05-01-2004, 09:12 AM   #171
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Actually Kerryn most religions do address exactly that point.
The Catholic Church calls it the 'Sin of Presumption'

The premise being that you presume that you will be around to repent later.
It is considered a VERY serious sin by most religions, no matter what lable.

If you do it too often you are considered anathema, and cast out.
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Old 05-01-2004, 03:15 PM   #172
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Since you aren't a believer you don't have to refrain from jugdement. You still need to be careful of assuming.

I acknowledge that I can be wrong, just not that I am wrong for what you call judgement or bigotry. God makes His feelings on proper relationships clear by verse and example and it is not bigotry to teach His Word. I hate catch phrases because after a while things seem to become mechanical, and yet the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" (assuming I have it correct) seems to apply well.

I don't hate people. I know I should be more tollerant of people. I don't get angry I get frustrated. Maybe you don't see them as different but I do. I am not angry, I don't want revenge, I don't want to see them hurt. I simply don't understand people who can't see that there is a God. I get even more frustrated when people seem to want to please God (at least they say they do) and they twist scripture or ignore it.

The internet complicates things. It is hard to translate the process of trying to bring people to God. Outside the game at work or school I am a lot more patient not because the internet hides my identity but because I will see these people tomorrow and there is a sense of available time. On the internet you never know when you will see people, or how long you have to try and convince them. You can't invite them to visit your church and see what you are talking about. You can't lead by example.

At school I can not cheat, pay attention, be a role model. At work I can clock in and out on time, not steal supplies, not play while I am supposed to be working, not talk about the women, etc... and people can see a difference over a period of time. So it is quite different.

More than anything what frustrates me is people who say things like 'I know that if people are good that God will forgive them." Why believe in God if you aren't going to read His word to man? The Bible is like a map to heaven... and people don't seem to realize that stopping to ask directions is okay.

Am I angry no. Am I upset? Yes? I'm not angry when people deny God anymore than I am angry when a child reaches up and touches a hot pan. You can tell them and tell them but in the end they are going to do what they do and it can be frustrating.

What is your suggestion? Is your suggestion to simply let people spout disinformation? Its okay to say 'God is love' and 'read the Bible' but not okay to actually talk about what God says?

Anyway... nothing people can say will keep me from speaking up. I'm not sorry. Unlike some people I do not suffer under the false idea that Jesus' message was ever intended to be easy or popular. He said it wouldn't be, and He would know.
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Old 05-01-2004, 06:31 PM   #173
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The apostle Paul called himself the greatest of sinners. True christians live with a broken heart knowing the frailty of man and the mercy of God.
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Old 05-01-2004, 07:09 PM   #174
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I agree, yet it also says not to sin that grace may increase.

He says how can those who have died to sin live in sin.

Knowing the frailty of man and the mercy of God does not excuse people from deliberately going against what He says. Not to mention that His ultimate mercy, salvation, is reserved for those who are baptized followers.
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Old 05-01-2004, 08:47 PM   #175
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You all have been busy !!!!!

Kerryn said:
Your religion teaches you that God will forgive all who ask for it. If he exists he might be sorry I don't believe but it is he who only has himself to blame.
Ok I know this was in response to Catcen, but I wanted to address a couple things in it.

Yes, Christianity teaches that all who ask for God's forgiveness through His son, Jesus Christ, will receive it. This is actually pretty difficult to get your mind around, but I'll try to be brief and clear (I will probably fail don't hesitate to point out where).

First, we have to ask why we must ask for forgiveness in the first place?

Why can't God just look at my life and say "oh, you're pretty good, come on into Heaven!" Well, because cause is perfect in every way. He is Perfectly Loving, He is also perfectly Holy, and Perfectly Just. Although it seems like these things do not go together, they do. God loves each and every one of us. All the time. It never changes. NO MATTER WHAT WE DO HE WILL ALWAYS LOVE US! Just as we will always love our children. Is there anything your child could do that would make you not love them? No - of course not! It is the same with God. He loves all of us, believers and non-believers. Every single person who ever lived was/is be loved by God.

So, why is there even a need for forgiveness if God loves us so much then? Because He is also perfectly Holy, and He CANNOT be in a relationship with anyone who is not. Period. It would be against His own nature. He still loves us, but He cannot let us into heaven, and He cannot lead our lives while we are here on earth while we are "enslaved to sin." We are NOT holy, we are NOT good, each and every one of us is enslaved to sin. It is our fallen nature (given to us when Adam and Eve rebelled, I know it sucks thats a separate issue though).

In order to breach the gap that exists between God and us (humans), forgiveness must be granted. In the OT, that was done through animal sacrifice, and the hope that God would find us to be righteous because he would take mercy upon us, the hope that God would provide. In the NT, Jesus fulfilled the sacrifice, paid the debt, and IS the hope, and IS the plan that God did provide. In other words, Jesus became the bridge between God and us. His death provides a way for us to get back into a relationship with God, which is why we must ask for it to apply to us, and in the end, this is why we must ask for forgiveness.

I do not know God's entire plan for the redemption of humanity, but I can tell you that if any person calls upon Jesus, they WILL be forgiven. Immediately and 100% forgiven and adopted as one of God's own children, into God's own family.

(Sorry that was so long, hope I explained it clearly).

Obviously, this goes against what a few said that they think God will just let them into heaven if they are pretty good. That's right - I disagree with you. Honestly, ask yourself - if that IS the case (that God will juut weigh your good and bad and then decide if you get into heaven) - then where is the cut off line? Is it with those who lied but didn't cheat? Or those who killed in self-defense but didn't plan for it? Or maybe a murderer who was really really sorry? or a rapist who had a really hard upbringing of abuse?

Or maybe the line is right behind and below where you stand??

I mean, we all think we are "pretty good" people. I betcha Hitler thought he was good enough for heaven! How about Ted Bundy? Or do we all need to be as good as Mother Teresa? If that's so, how much will I have to do to repair my standing with God? Is it fair of him to hold out on me telling me what I need to do? I mean gawd guys! I don't want a God like that! When critically thinking about it, I would not trust a God that capricious and unforthcoming. how does that reconcile with Him being a God of Love? It doesn't! Nor does it jive with a God who judges imo. He wouldn't be upholding His own law if He judged us in that manner. Do you see what I am pointing out? Just think about it.



Now, back to Kerryn - would you mind telling me why you think God is to blame for your unbelief?

I read how you felt He "ignored" you, or ignored prayers, and did not grant signs. I can speak about these type of things with you should you want to - either on boards or through PM on the boards here or email.

I will say this - God has given us a bible, filled with His plan for our redemption. While you say it is unreliable, and others think it is fairytales, I can quote and link you sources that are extremely credible and reliable - SCIENTIFIC sources. But what would that prove other than there are two different ways to go about this? We already know that. The difference could be that I could show you they are credible.

However, you still have to take that final leap into believing that its true and is the word of God. God cannot do that for you. That is YOUR job, not His. He already did His work, He has given us ample evidence for belief. Imho, I think it requires much more faith to NOT believe there is a God, than to believe there IS one. Even court cases are won on much less evidence than we have for the existence of God.

If the issues are unanswered prayers by God, I can say lots, but not any better than others already have out there - thing to remember is that God will not answer a prayer that is not in line with His will. And His will is always one of love, holiness, and redemption. And His timetable is different than ours.

One of the fundamental tenets of the christian religion is that you never give in to anger and hate and there are people in this post who claim to be religious but show nothing but scorn, hate, bigotry and anger towards others.
Actually, that is not a fundamental tenant of the religion believe it or not, well I guess its part of one but in a different way. Rather you could say THE fundamental tenant is love - loving God and loving others. So, the things you describe are NOT loving and therefore, a walking Christin should not do these things. However, as I like to say, Christians are people too. We screw up. If being Christian means being perfect or even good or even better - then I am not a Christian, because I am a terrible person. I am totally selfish, I yell at my kids and dogs when they irriate me too much, I snap at my husband... need I continue into those dark areas no one sees except God? No, I think you get the point.

Christians are no different than others on this earth when it comes to sinning - we all sin. Ares said we think we are "better." That is not so. The difference between the unbeliever and the believer is that I carry the presence of Christ within me, and the unbeliever does not. I have the Holy Spirit "indwelling" me, while the unbeliever does not. I can choose to NOT be enslaved to sin, while the unbeliever cannot. That is why believers say we have been set free - from the bondage of sin.

Let me be clear - it does not mean we do NOT sin, it means we can choose not to sin, not to allow it to enslave us. We can choose differently because we have power to do so. I can choose to love the unloveable, I can choose to love when it causes me pain, I can choose to love when I am not loved in return, because Christ gives me the power to do so. That is the biggest difference. I am free, while the unbeliever is in bondage.

That is not to say that humans cannot do these things on occasion also by choosing to do so - whether believers or not. But in the end, they will not have the endurance. Ever read "My Savage, My Kinsman" )or something like that) by Elisabeth Elliott? Do so and you will understand. At the least listen to and read the story behind the song "No Greater Love" by Steven Curtis Chapman.

Imo, Christian hypocrites are either not christians (but think they are), or are simply choosing to sin. If choosing to sin, that makes them Christians who are sinning. Christians are not perfect, and anyone who claims to be is probably hiding some deep sin. Please understand too, some people think Christianity is inherited. "My mom was a Christian so I must be to..." unhuh - its a belief, not a gene. It can't be passed down through dna. Sometimes people claim to be Christian, but they don't have any clue what that means either. They maybe have never read the bible even. I like to call them people who ahve "fire insurance." They won't go to hell, but they don't live in a way that makes you think "Wow, what a loving Christ-like person!"

Was that clear as mud? Hope some of it came across.

I know I got preachy there a bit - I tried not to, I apologize. I hope you read it regardless. I hope you understood it, and even if you do not agree, I hope it at least explained some things.

If not, well, I did try to be clear. Shoot me! =p Of course, I never try to be offensive, if I was - forgive me, point it out, and don't let it tick ya off, cause I probably just said it wrong

Take care all. I'll try to revisit the thread sooner next time.
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