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Old 04-28-2004, 06:55 AM   #76
Inmountains
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"Now, Inmountains. You believe in God and you believe in morality yet you were married, you stood in a church and you swore before God to love your wife and to cherish her, love her, and be with her for as long as you both shall live. Then you got a divorce, you immoral fucking bastard. If you're going to have beliefs at least be man enough to follow them."

Hey Kerryn, you self righteous viper, you moron, you imbecile. You know NOT of which you speak!!!! So let me TRY to open you eyes before you hurt yourself and make yourself look even more STUPID!!!!!

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

My ex wife not only cheated on me for over 10 years, she got pregnant by one of my best friends, and I helped interview couples to adopt that child. For over 10 years I tried to HEAL a marriage with a fornicating wife, but I just couldn't do it any more. My ex is now on her 5th marriage, so you try and put 2 and 2 together, or are you playing in the sand box at pre school with horm still? Let me put it together for you then, I am damn lucky I didn't catch anything from her, as much as she tramped around.

Oh, and in the end, I was still willing to try and make it work, but she said adios, and even had her fiance at the final divorce hearing with her, and then a year later, the two of them were there. It's called Poetic Justice.

So before you go spouting off like some half baked chicken with it's head cut off, you better get your facts straight. It's people like you that are so dangerous, you make a conclusion with 1 percent of the facts. I now have given you, MAYBE, 2 percent of the facts, it got a LOT worse than that in my marriage, before I finally realized that it just wasn't going to work.
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Old 04-28-2004, 07:28 AM   #77
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The problem Catcen is that everytime one of you bible-thumpers tries to explain the bibles stance on any given subject I find more often then not that it says no such thing. 9 out of 10 times that anyone uses the bible as any sort of proof they do so only to belittle, and look down upon others, and it is usually a single sentence taken from a page out of context because it supports their personal stance. Just as this is yours.

It's a huge book, and it covers a variety of topics to varying degrees so most things are covered to some extent. Therein lies the flaw because any number of cults over the past 2000 years have been based on "interpretations" of the book. The only difference between your cult and their cult is that yours is more mainstream.

It's also a book that has been butchered at will by the church for hundreds of years to support their cause.

Can I tell you something with no word of ire. You personally Catcen were one of the people that made me stop believing in god as was Caelie. Every argument you both ever came out with proved to me why I have no wish to be part of your religion. Everything was in direct contradiction, not only to itself but to everything I knew in my heart to be true. You wield the bible as a weapon, and you use it to judge others, despite the words "judge not lest thee by judged thyself" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" I don't blame you for contributing to my lack of faith. I thank you for it.

You welcome anyone to your church but I have to wonder how conditional that welcome is. Does it extend to homosexuals or to those that refuse to repent for an abortion? Or is your welcome only extended to those that submit to the mantra, the endless brainwashing without question?

And it's these little things I cherish from this board, this sort of thing keeps me coming back each day
As far as being an egotist. Being right doesn't make you an egotist.
Being right doesn't make you an egotist. Believing that your ideals are right despite no proof other then a 2000 year old book which has been proven wrong countless times before might be an indication. Your god teaches you hate, to accept only those that behave like you or repent having behaved differently. Their is no room for maneuvreing. You either accept or you refuse.

To my knowledge, I have never claimed to be more than a Christian with a good marriage, a good family, a poor memory, an average intellect, and a mind that jumps from thing to thing.

I'm not better than non Christians, just more saved.
Saved from what? I happen to like my existence and I only believe in heaven and hell as states of mind. If your god cannot forgive me because I made my decisions differently then he isn't as charitable and benevolent as you would have me believe. If you believe you need to be saved from something then I can only suggest your church and your belief isnt making you as happy as my lack of belief is making me.

There are so many things wrong in this world and religion is the biggest. But your god is either an absentee landlord or a sadistic menace. Personally I just believe he doesn't exist.

I've never believed that Im any different to you or any better. I had a lot of sex when I was younger but I looked after myself. I settled down 7 years ago with a woman whom I had grown to love, and we raise two fantastic kids together, one of which is not mine, but the product of intercourse outside of marriage on my partners behalf.

A biological father that does not love nor care for his little girl.

I have a second child and this June I will marry my fiancee later this year in a Church that would not accept me if they knew I did not believe. But that it wear my fiancee wishes to marry. The blessing of your god, and the vicar who looks upon my children as a mistake is not important. It is simply important for Michelle and I to accept that we love each other and wish to spend the rest of our lives together.

That's why my wedding vows contain no reference to god and hers do. She swears by something she believes in, and I swear by something I believe in. The fact that we believe different things is not important to either of us. It's certainly better then the morality Inmountains would have you impress upon us, after having a divorce.

He's entitled to that divorce but not if he's going to talk about our morality before a god whose oath he broke.

So I continue to live my life, not judging others, accepting them for what they are, and living a peaceful life educating my kids. And you continue to live your life swinging that bible like a bat, accepting people only as you wish them to be, and living a life persecuting those that are different and educating your children to do the same. And yet it is you, that would look down upon me.

I grant you forgiveness because you know not what you do. I ask for none in return.
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Old 04-28-2004, 07:30 AM   #78
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My ex wife not only cheated on me for over 10 years, she got pregnant by one of my best friends,
Perhaps she needed a man.
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Old 04-28-2004, 07:58 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Kerryn
Try to understand that stopping abortion won't stop these people from getting pregnant.
Not disagreeing with this, but it could also be rephrased as "Try to understand that banning abortion won't stop these people from getting abortions."

I am not sure where my views on abortion fall... on the one hand, I know that I myself could never do that even to a child gotten in rape. <shrug> Not because I subscribe to the theory that a fetus is a person, or that it's murder (depending on the point in gestation anyway...) but I personally wouldn't be able to throw away that much unrealized potential.

On the other hand, in the first place I have no justification for imposing my morality on someone else, and in the second place... I believe that anyone who COULD choose abortion as a form of birth control WILL choose abortion, even if there is a better than even chance that they would die as well. Part of what formed that belief is the realization that anyone who fails to recognize the consequences of sexual activity would also fail to recognize the consequences in a back alley coat hanger abortion... basically, they are the type that thinks "but it can't happen to ME", despite it happening to most everyone who engages in a given behaivor.

So basically, while my personal choices wouldn't include abortion... my political view is that it should be legal, because at least then there is SOME control in place.

Another issue I have with the pro-life group is that they seem perfectly willing to force people to have unwanted children, but they do not want those children themselves. They are, for the most part, unwilling to "put thier money where thier mouth is" so to speak.

In an ideal world, every child would be wanted and would have a home and family that will love it... in the real world however, we already have way too many unwanted unloved children to even think about creating MORE.

Not that I'm altogether happy with my logic directing me to the pro-choice side of the fence, but thats where it put me <shrug>

Originally Posted by Deadscale
Rape in any case is bad, but wouldn't you agree some women are basically bringing rape upon themselves? By some I mean like a fraction of a percent.
Deadscale, normally I like you but you are way off base here. No woman is asking for it, there is no justification for one person to force themselves on another. None at all.

Originally Posted by Zolmaz
<insert random paranoid babbling here>
Lets see, you hate homosexuals, feminists, unwed mothers, women in general, non-business owners, foreigners, minorities, people in other countries, people on welfare, liberals, college professors... have I missed anyone?

lets face it, you've so far in the course of this forum given the impression that you hate EVERYONE and they're all part of some nefarious plot against "right thinking americans" of which you consider yourself to be one.

You never post anything of worth, just random babblings spouting off the most incendary comments your feeble little mind can think of, and you really think people need to take you seriously? You're a joke Zolmaz, you have always been a joke, and it is entirely likely you WILL always be a joke. And not even a particularly amusing one anymore.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:03 AM   #80
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Okay, point awarded Wildane Rnd3 but I still scored a Ippon in the 2nd round.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:09 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Kerryn
Perhaps she needed a man.
See, this is the sort of thing many liberals on these boards rely on, insulting people who disagree with their views. It doesn't help make your case at all; to the contrary, it weakens your credibility.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:14 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Kulani
Deadscale, normally I like you
liar

After typing the word "Choqquequirau" so many times last night, I'm in no typing mood

The women aren't literally asking for it, I'm sure no one is looking to get raped, when they dress as they do (half of the time to get the attention they starve for) they get the attention of not only regulars but those aggressive/rapists as well.

--Quoting something Wil said in the other page but I'm too lazy to go get it--

I agree with you, I wish more guys would just get it through their heads that women just don't want them that night or at all. Like you said, beat if off. It is the man's problem like you said, but they make it the woman's as well.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:14 AM   #83
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everything I knew in my heart to be true.
Kerryn, I'm not on the saving patrol or anything like that, but that quote you gave is the reason I am a believer. I just can not fathom that there could be such a thing as conscience when our animal instincts are so strong. That conscience has to come from somewhere. We all know what is right and what is wrong. The funny thing is that each of the major religions have faults but pervasive throughout them is a standard of following good conscience.
I agree totally with a lot of your assessments. I feel people try to use religion and their gods to further their own goodwill.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:23 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Aelain
See, this is the sort of thing many liberals on these boards rely on, insulting people who disagree with their views. It doesn't help make your case at all; to the contrary, it weakens your credibility.
See, this is the sort of hollow argument many conservatives on the board rely on, claiming that liberals rely on insults when conservatives do it just as often to people who disagree with their views. It doesn't help you make your case at all; to the contrary, it makes you look like a pompous, self-important blowhard.

Get over yourself for Christ's sake.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:27 AM   #85
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My beliefs are only slightly different to yours Kulani. I believe that everyone should take responsibility for their actions to the best of their ability. But if they've done that and something unplanned happens then they should be allowed the right to choose.

Even without complications such as mental illnesses, downs, deaf and dumb children, I believe that if you took precautions and got unlucky then you should be granted the right to do with your own body as you will.



Now...I have to address this one.
Rape in any case is bad, but wouldn't you agree some women are basically bringing rape upon themselves? By some I mean like a fraction of a percent.
You're spot on Kulani when you say there is no justifcation for rape but that's not what he's saying. Some women do bring rape upon themselves to an extent.

What I mean by that is that no normal sane healthy man goes out there and commits an act that he would not otherwise do because a woman provoked him. However there are women who attract those that are already inclined to rape.

It's why I don't let my little girl wear make-up and skimpy clothes in public. ( I'm not talking hot pants and boob tubes. I'm talking kids stuff like shorts and little vest tops in summer or bathing costumes ) Not because she is justifying rape, but that if there is a rapist in the area he is that more likely to rape my little girl then those around her simply because it is she that is the most attractive to him.

Everyone has the right to say "no" at any stage but there are women out there that will gladly play with a guys dick under a table in a nightclub before telling him "no" outside. Whilst they are not "asking to be raped" they are certainly not doing anything to help themselves.



See, this is the sort of thing many liberals on these boards rely on, insulting people who disagree with their views. It doesn't help make your case at all; to the contrary, it weakens your credibility.
Perhaps you missed
Hey Kerryn, you self righteous viper, you moron, you imbecile. You know NOT of which you speak!!!! So let me TRY to open you eyes before you hurt yourself and make yourself look even more STUPID!!!!!
That was the reason for my flippancy. It started off by the pro-lifers calling the pro-choice murderers and calling them immoral. I don't think giving him a little taste of his own medicine discredits my argument at all but you should really stay current with the discussion before trying to make out that the pro-choicers started the flames.

Oh and just so you can be sure that this one doesn't help your political agenda....I'm not a liberal. I simply take a liberal view on the abortion argument having lived in a family which has been touched by it more deeply then you and every single "pro-lifer" on this board will ever be.

I speak from empathy and fact, not from the ideal that my way is the only way and that all others are wrong and if you think that my argument "relied" on my flippant remark you must not have read my previous posts which not only show that I don't rely on flames, but that they don't even form part of my argument.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:40 AM   #86
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It goes back to my "inability to accept the consequences of your actions" belief... they dress like teases, and they get a pretty predictable response.

But, I also don't like the idea that they were asking for it... because even as recently as 10 years ago, a woman wearing jeans (not tight jeans, just jeans) instead of a skirt was said to be "asking for it"... I wouldn't want anyone to "backslide" so to speak.

I will say that a hooker crying rape gets alot less sympathy from me than a woman who was just walking to the store to get eggs... in the second case, I'm all for castrating her attacker and I feel really bad for her and will help her however she needs. In the first case, I just want to see the attacker castrated.

So, in effect, it's not so much she was asking to get raped as it was she was asking not to get sympathy if it happened, if that makes sense. Hard to explain my thought processes (the two brain cells I possess don't always communicate with each other effectively I guess heh).

I forget which book it was in, some fantasy novel by a popular writer of late-teen/early adult age fantasy... possibly Mercedes Lackey? Anyway, the writer proposed a novel punishment for rape... grant the victim the status of a divorced spouse (alimony, property division, etc) for a term of 5 years, 16 years if a child resulted plus paying for said childs apprenticeship/dower... in modern terms, would be basically paying for the childs college. Too bad it wouldn't work in the real world (for one thing, there would be a LOT more false rape allegations, for another there is the problem of proving who did it, etc.)

If they did it again they were left "******dly whole but completely incapeable of repeating the act" heh... like I said, too bad it wouldn't work in real life.

I will admit that women who fail to respect the consequences of being a "tease" are more likely to get raped by someone who is already inclined to do so... but that doesn't mean that THEY should get the blame. They were already punished enough for thier lack of forethought.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:50 AM   #87
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One of the biggest misconceptions about rape is that it happens to women dressed in skimpy outfits, and is enacted by horny men.

Wrong and wrong. Rapists do it for the sense of power gained, not for sexual pleasure. Outfit means nothing nor does time of day, as you are more likely to be raped dressed rather conservatively in the middle of the day at a grocery store parking lot than out late at night in a piece of cloth that shouldn't even qualify as a mini skirt and something of equal size covering your chest. Age, looks, none of that shit matters. Not to mention odds are it'll be someone close to/within the family, and not some random stranger.

My girlfriend just wrote an amazing paper on rape myths, and made a list of common misconceptions and the real facts behind them as part of a presentation. When she gets home later I'll get it from her and post it, just to further clarify.
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:59 AM   #88
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No Antilles they aren't myths.

Whilst it's not true to say that all rapes are enacted by horny men to scantily clad women, there are those that are.

Even so, lets just imagine 4 women who look equally attractive, 3 conservatively dressed, one with a miniskirt and boob tube. Now let's imagine our rapist who does so not for sexual pleasure but for power. What do you think the odds are?

From a practical point of view alone it's a damn sight easier to hitch up a mini-skirt then it is to take a pair of jeans off when a woman doesn't want them to come off.

With child molestation though it is rarely about power and much more frequently about sex.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:01 AM   #89
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it makes you look like a pompous, self-important blowhard
I love it when I get to use a cliche.

Pot meet kettle.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:06 AM   #90
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I have a second child and this June I will marry my fiancee later this year in a Church that would not accept me if they knew I did not believe
Don't be a hypocrit then..go to a justice of the peace or any other type of seccular public official who can perform the ceremony. Marrying in a church for an atheist is compromising your own beliefs...or shows that you doubt your own lack of belief.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:07 AM   #91
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Haha okay, they aren't myths, and she just presented a report based things that aren't called facts.

I never said it doesn't happen to women dressed like that, it happens to women dressed in any manner whatsoever. The thing is, its being pushed that dress is a staple cause for rape, and the fact of the matter is its not.

Like I said, I'll post her presentation (which consisted of a plethora of myths and counter-evidence disproving them) when she gets home.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:42 AM   #92
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Marrying in a church for an atheist is compromising your own beliefs...or shows that you doubt your own lack of belief.
Or respect for the other person. Don't make shit up Trith. This is obviously a respectful thing. Many atheists bow their heads at funerals to respect the dead and the beliefs of others.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:52 AM   #93
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It's shows he compromised his beliefs. If he's a true atheist then he would not marry in a church under any circumstances. I'm just amazed by how he can criticize religion as a sham, then turn around and bow before it and lie about it to appease someone else. It's shows a lack of character. If you are going to do something..do it. If you are going to tout atheism..be an atheist....don't half-ass it. It also says volumes for the person he is marrying as well. A true Christian would not marry an atheist under any circumstances, and vice-versa...it's a match made for failure.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:53 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Trith
I love it when I get to use a cliche.
You picked the right party then
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:56 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Trith
A true Christian would not marry an atheist under any circumstances, and vice-versa...it's a match made for failure.
What utter horseshit.

Besides, young divorcees shouldn't generally go around pretending to dictate the dos and don'ts of marriage
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:03 AM   #96
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What's horseshit about it? That's a very fundamental difference in beliefs. Whether you believe it or not, it will weigh in heavily to their relationship. A Christian also has a relationship with God, which an atheist will never truely understand, and which will be a point of division between them. Just ask my mother what happened when my father turned atheist.
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:13 AM   #97
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It's this notion of a "true Christian" that offends. Not everyone who is a Christian is an out of touch, bible thumping douchebag like so many of our "Christians" here. I can think of literally dozens of successful marriages between very non-religious people and more religious people.

There's more to life and marriage than religion. No wonder so many conservative Christians are such joyless human shells when you live your whole lives worried about what your imaginary friend is going to do to you when you die.

If your love for a person doesn't transcend their religion, then you don't love them enough to marry them. And if your love is contingent on religious values, then I wonder if you know what love is to begin with.
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:19 AM   #98
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Kerryn
YOU started it by calling me an "immoral fucking bastard", if I recall your words correctly. Thus, so you could understand me, I used insults as well. Or are you one of them libs with two big paper mache one's between your legs and dish it out but can't take it!?!?!?

Let's disect your term, "immoral fucking bastard". First off, immoral is a subjective term but I strive to be morally better each day. Yes, I do fail at times, especially when dealing with the moronic left, but I do try. I have not had sex in over two years, so fucking is kind of not the term for me lately. Bastard? No, my parents are getting ready to celebrate their 52 Wedding Anniversary, so that term does not apply to me.

Yes, that was being sarcastic, but the point is, you libs dish it out right and left, but when it is sent back your way, you have the weakest come backs, something you would hear in a pre school sand box, "Maybe she wanted a man". Please?!?!? My eight year old has better come backs than that!!! How about this: "Maybe she has a psychological disorder due to the way she was raised and abandoned by her parents, and raised by her grand parents. Plus the fact that she learned at a very young age how to manipulate men with sex, and thus used that as a means to an end"

I love this, the stupidity of you guys on the left, the wimpiness, the cry baby attitude, just makes my day!!! You can shoot insults at me all you want, and I can shoot them back, no skin off my nose. But when you start crying about it, I just laugh!!!
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:23 AM   #99
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No wonder so many conservative Christians are such joyless human shells when you live your whole lives worried about what your imaginary friend is going to do to you when you die.
If you aren't concerned with where your soul spends eternity, conservative or liberal, you aren't a Christian. If it offends you, tough, but a TRUE CHRISTIAN doesn't treat their relationship with their deity so casually. That goes for any religion, as well. But, I have a feeling we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I know your atheism prevents you from fully grasping the concept of religion. You cannot possibly fathom the type of relationship a Christian has with God. They dont' necessarily put that before their mate, they try to include them. If you really want a successful marriage, you won't put your spouse in such a position to have to choose.
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:34 AM   #100
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Wildane, I'm not necessarily an atheist. I'm very much undecided, to be honest, and my belief or nonbelief in the existence of a "God" has changed many times. However, given the absolute uncertainty of it all, I am constantly shocked that people let the scribblings of 2000 year dead "prophets" run the minutia of their lives. I grasp the concept of religion just fine: I've just got different ideas about it than you do. I regard it as a tool, used first to easily explain the unexplainable (origins of the universe and species for instance: "Well, musta been an almighty being who done it!" vs. the complexities of the Big Bang theory and evolution) and later to control the masses (see the gross power wielded by the Catholic Church in the middle ages and numerous examples of similar controlling mechanisms through the current day).

But if your relationship with God overwhelms your relationship with a real person, then you are fucked, and need to join the clergy or seek therapy. When you put the wholly unproven notion of a divine supernatural being above the needs and love of a human being, then you have SERIOUS problems.

And IM, it was you who called me an immoral bastard prior to Kerryn's posting. Sucks to get caught huh? You started the name calling on that route bud.
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