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Old 04-27-2004, 10:14 AM   #26
cnjmorris
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Um, if you have the right it means that they have the choice. They can choose to murder their child. Pro choice ..
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:15 AM   #27
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Like it or not sexual reference in the Bible is always made in the context of marriage or immorality. It is one or the other. The implication is clear and only those who want to deny it are willing to over look it.
So Bible-boy, your "implication" of pre-marital sex does not exist in the Bible. It speaks of sex being between married people, but doesn't speak in any negative vain of pre-marital sex. And if you are "implying" pre-marital sex didn't exist back then I think you might be mistaken. There are plenty of bastards in the Bible. I am sure that there were others who just didn't conceive as well.

So Bible-boy please tell me where pre-marital sex is spoken ill of. And don't tell me its your preacher who speaks ill of it.
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:25 AM   #28
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I don't swear by everything my preacher says. You are thinking of the Catholics.

Implication is a very important part of the Bible. Take baptism for example.... it says to be baptized. It doesn't say at what age, but it says to believe and it says to walk in newness of life. Obviously a baby who can't walk and isn't old enough to reason and think can't meet the requirement.

No one who reads the Bible and accepts it as a guide to life and Life believes pre-marital sex is okay. So there isn't any point in me trying to convince you the Bible says it only to have you say "so what, the Bible is just an old book" or pull a Catholic and just ignore or change it.
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by cnjmorris
Um, if you have the right it means that they have the choice. They can choose to murder their child. Pro choice ..
Pro-choice extends beyond abortion. Anti-cesareansection proponents are pushing for legislation that would mandate that doctors "persuade" women who opt for c-sections to instead choose not to undergo the procedure. Again, an infringement on a woman's right to choose what she wants to do with her body.

Pro-life and pro-choice are not polar opposites and a lot of you need to stop making that claim. If that were the case, it would be pro-life and pro-death, but since choice and death are not synonymous it can be ascertained that they do not in fact carry the same meaning.

For the sake of agitating you, because I'm sick of the murder argument, its not murder until the fetus can be born and survive outside of the womb. Up until that point, its simply the killing of a parasite (by biological definition) and as I'm willing to bet most of you could give two shits about the senseless murder of animals (pro-life hypocrites), you shouldn't care about the death of a simple parasite either.

And no, in my opinion its not murdering two people if a pregnant woman is killed at a stage in the pregnancy when the fetus could not be born and able to survive outside of the womb. Potential for life does not constitute life, otherwise I'd be murdering future babies each time I caught a load in a condom.

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Old 04-27-2004, 10:32 AM   #30
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No one who reads the Bible and accepts it as a guide to life and Life believes pre-marital sex is okay.
So what you are telling me is that Christians claim it but the Bible does not. Doesn't that mean that Christians are then not following the Bible, but instead making up their own laws? Wasn't this preached against in the Bible when God made the ten commandments?
As for your hard-on for Catholics, its already been demonstrated all over these boards that your knowledge of Catholicism is weak. You attack them merely because of hatred, not because you know what you speak of.
In fact, you have no leg to stand on for this argument as well. There is nothing against pre-marital sex in the Bible, there is nothing about drinking alcohol as well, there is nothing against gambling in the Bible either. There are things that say it is bad to abuse these things. But that isn't the same thing as being 100% against them. In fact the disciples threw lots for Jesus' garments.
So instead of making up your own religion, why don't you learn to read the Bible Bible-boy.
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:41 AM   #31
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So, when someone pleads down to first degree manslaughter because the state doesn't want to take the chance of a person getting off on a technicality then all of a sudden he never murdered?

I am surprised that you are willing to give up the freedom to call something what it is and defer to the states opinion. I can only imagine that if the state declared it murder then it would be murder? So you aren't pro choice you are pro state?
******************************************************
I use a better term, that ISNT state defined. 'KILL"
You know,that word in the bible.
What 'I' am doesnt matter.
'MY' opinion is that MEN cannot get pregnant. Therefore it is absurd for
MALES to coerce women with regards to this issue.

I am afraid that is the state calls something 'murder' you better pay attention to what it is. The state can legally hurt you.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:13 AM   #32
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So what you are telling me is that Christians claim it but the Bible does not.
Doesn't that mean that Christians are then not following the Bible, but instead making up their own laws? Wasn't this preached against in the Bible when God made the ten commandments?
Where does it say not to run someone over with your car? I guess that is okay too? Its intentions are clear and trying to confuse the situation doesn't make it less clear.

There are things that say it is bad to abuse these things. But that isn't the same thing as being 100% against them. In fact the disciples threw lots for Jesus' garments.
I didn't say the Bible said alcohol was bad. Nor did I say that is spoke against gambling (even though Christians don't gamble). I'm curious why you believe that the disciples gambled for his clothes. I read several versions and it mentions that some of the disciples were present at his crucifixtion and that the people gambled for his clothes but I don't see where they participated.

So instead of making up your own religion, why don't you learn to read the Bible Bible-boy.
I am confused... am I a blind sheep to my preacher or am I making up my own religion? It's Tuesday, if that helps you decide.

Like it or not, the Bible is against sex outside of marriage.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:24 AM   #33
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'MY' opinion is that MEN cannot get pregnant. Therefore it is absurd for
MALES to coerce women with regards to this issue.
MEN aren't the only ones who are smart enough to be pro life. MEN have every right to tell a woman she can't murder her unborn child.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:31 AM   #34
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I don't even have to respond to that one.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:33 AM   #35
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Horm, if 'fucking is fun', I got a whole flock of sheep right here for you, you immoral bastard. And if that is your belief, can I have some fun with your wife after you get married? Damn, you are as dense as you are stupid. Let's just all lower 'sex' to the same level as taking a piss or eating a meal!!

Am I morally superior to you Horm? Is the Pope Catholic? Am I morally pure or perfect, heck no. But I have been dating the same lady for almost a year now and we still are NOT having sex. And this is the GREATEST relationship I have had since my divorce, since we are getting to really know each other and developing a strong foundation. I speak from experience because I have had the 'cheap sex' and that is what it was, CHEAP, it was NOT fun. There is no brain washing to it, it's called wisdom and experience.

You wouldn't know what a 'moral' is if it hit you up side the head!!!
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Old 04-27-2004, 12:12 PM   #36
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Wow Inmountains, you sound exactly like a loser who can't get any. Remarkable, yet equally unsurprising.

You don't think fucking is fun? I suppose you just did your husbandly duty with your ex-wife, popped out a few kids in the name of holy procreation? And after years of blue balls, the divorce, you're finally so impotent that you can't bring yourself to make a move on this new woman (kudos to your powers of persuasion that you've managed to coerce 2 women into a relationship with your sorry ass btw ). Welcome to the sad emasculation of middle age Inmountains. You are now nothing more than a eunuch with an "M" on your birth certificate.

So you can keep your hilarious anachronistic sexual attitudes and watch your nub shrivel up and die. I feel sorry for people like you IM. You'll note (if you can pull your head out of your ass long enough to read it) in my previous post that I never promoted promiscuity: in fact, I'm a big fan of monogamy. You however, are so hung up on your anemic sexuality that you assume anyone who is getting any and has the balls to admit that sex feels fucking great is a moral vacuum.

What a sad, broken little man you are though. Sad enough in fact, that I think I erred in giving you the benefit of the doubt that you ever had a pair. Lemme guess: low sperm count, went the IVF route to have your kids with the ex. I'm a past donor- can your kids call me Daddy or would Uncle Horm suffice?
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Old 04-27-2004, 12:49 PM   #37
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I am not a religious person by any means, but I dont support abortion on demand. If its for medical or psychological reasons (as many pro choice advocates have used to support their stance) then I begrudgingly see the logic behind it and wouldnt oppose it. Its the unnecessary abortions usually as the result of irresponsible behaviour that I dont think the state should fund.

Sex is fun, but responsiblity and rational thinking is what sets us apart from other species.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:11 PM   #38
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When I see the phrase "the woman's right to chose" I see red. First of all, how is it "her" baby? Doesn't the father have a voice in determining the fate of the unborn child? Second of all, even if the father doesn't care, how can anyone be so amoral as to want to end an innocent life so theirs can be "easy"?? Even in the case of rape or incest I don't think it is cut and dried, but I would be willing to make this compromise. I have heard so many stories about women having abortions and regretting it until the day they died.

What it boils down to is that people want to have fun without dealing with the consequences or taking responsibility for their actions. In the case of sex, sometimes the consequences is a screaming child, sometimes an STD, sometimes a shotgun wedding. The availability of Pennicillin has made people less careful about STDs, though AIDs is still a very real possibility. The availablity of abortions has made people less careful of pregnancy.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:16 PM   #39
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Even in the case of rape or incest I don't think it is cut and dried, but I would be willing to make this compromise.
If you are willing to condemn a possibly very-underage individual to the unwanted status of motherhood because she was raped then you are in absolutely no position to be discussing morals.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:19 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by FanonFaythunder
If you are willing to condemn a possibly very-underage individual to the unwanted status of motherhood because she was raped then you are in absolutely no position to be discussing morals.
I didn't say that. I just said it is not cut and dried. I have heard of raped women who have gone on to have their child and been very happy.

EDIT: spelling.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:22 PM   #41
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Yes, there are cases where the child is the only positive consequence of a rape, but I don't think a women should ever be pushed into keeping a child that was so violently forced upon them.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:27 PM   #42
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What it boils down to is that people want to have fun without dealing with the consequences or taking responsibility for their actions. In the case of sex, sometimes the consequences is a screaming child, sometimes an STD, sometimes a shotgun wedding. The availability of Pennicillin has made people less careful about STDs, though AIDs is still a very real possibility. The availablity of abortions has made people less careful of pregnancy
*******************************************************
There it is again. Children are punshment from God for having sex.

Oddly, that isnt how 'I' see them.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:29 PM   #43
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Like it or not, the Bible is against sex outside of marriage.
OK Bible-boy. You admit that the Bible does not have anything to do with pre-marital sex. It does not mention it being wrong at all. So how can you justify that it says this if you admit that it doesn't? Where are you coming from. I am very confused at your explanation (if you can call it that). You speak with forked tongue.
If you are going to make a stand based upon the Bible, base it upon the Bible, not your puritanical brethren. Because the Bible is not a puritanical document. The puritans misused the Bible for power grabbing. Sadly, 400 years later or so you are still subscribing to antiquated human law.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:31 PM   #44
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MEN aren't the only ones who are smart enough to be pro life. MEN have every right to tell a woman she can't murder her unborn child.

*******************************************************
Only if he is materialy responsible. (ie He is willing to support the child,
NOT contribute to the support of. I mean HE pays ALL bills)

Otherwise, I see no compelling reason to accept your statement as valid on ANY level. The Child will not impact his life on any level. It WILL upon hers.
So why does he get a say again?
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:50 PM   #45
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Default hmm

I started to read this thread and I saw:
People are NOT sheep, and they will do as they wish. get used to that.

That is the funniest thing I've seen in a while.

Proof that people are sheep can be found in advertising. The power of suggestion (oo movie reference, 10 points to guess it). Advertising is proof that people can be controlled and shoveled into thinking they need something, thinking they should go to a certain place, or whatever the goal is.

Sure, they may think it was an original thought, but it was more than likely hammered into their head 10 or 12 times by the newspaper, television, billboards, magazines, internet, email, friends who saw any of those, or friends who know people who saw them.


Humans are sheep. With the right methods you can show them pretty things and take their money without a second glance.



Edit.....

As for the original subject of this thread, you'll never convince someone who is pro-life to become pro-choice. At least not without questionable methods.

As for a law dictating which is good and which is bad, we're supposed to live in a democracy. The government should be concerned with trying to protect our way of life,rather than be concerned with just what our way of life is.

The mother, father, doctor of said parents, and any they choose to include in the decision of the matter should be the only ones allowed to decide if a baby should be brought to term, or to be aborted.

And no one else.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:56 PM   #46
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As for the original subject of this thread, you'll never convince someone who is pro-life to become pro-choice. At least not without questionable methods.
Or until said middle-aged married man gets his 22 year old mistress pregnant.
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:44 PM   #47
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touche

and should that happen, the choice is theirs, and theirs alone.
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Chiteng
What it boils down to is that people want to have fun without dealing with the consequences or taking responsibility for their actions. In the case of sex, sometimes the consequences is a screaming child, sometimes an STD, sometimes a shotgun wedding. The availability of Pennicillin has made people less careful about STDs, though AIDs is still a very real possibility. The availablity of abortions has made people less careful of pregnancy
*******************************************************
There it is again. Children are punshment from God for having sex.

Oddly, that isnt how 'I' see them.
Where did I say children were a punishment? I said they were a CONSEQUENCE, which is not always a bad thing. Look up the definition of consequence. However, these people don't want their kids, so they choose to "be rid of them."
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:31 PM   #49
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OK Bible-boy. You admit that the Bible does not have anything to do with pre-marital sex. It does not mention it being wrong at all. So how can you justify that it says this if you admit that it doesn't? Where are you coming from. I am very confused at your explanation (if you can call it that). You speak with forked tongue.
If you are going to make a stand based upon the Bible, base it upon the Bible, not your puritanical brethren. Because the Bible is not a puritanical document. The puritans misused the Bible for power grabbing. Sadly, 400 years later or so you are still subscribing to antiquated human law.
Calling me Bible-boy is about as insulting as calling me Christian, but if it gives you a kick, I say add all you can to your pointless existence.

The Bible is simple enough, and yet it requires men to use the minds that God gave them. If the Bible had included every single idea that has ever and will ever occur to man then it would be impossible to catalogue let alone read or understand it all. I know, that would give you one more reason to disregard it, and that is your goal, but it wouldn't have been any more helpful to people who have no desire to understand their Creator.

Because the Bible does not include everything some things have to be based on the examples we see, the issues it does address, and the expectation and realization that people who are looking will find and those who are looking to avoid will find or create problems.

The Bible makes God's design clear. It makes His desire clear. Marriage is well planned, and the family structure is well designed. Man and woman fit together and are capable of creating children to continue their line and the human race. You don't think that by making His design clear that going against His design would be going against Him? Sorry, some of us don't need neon signs or pictures in order to understand. Here's hoping you learn to read.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:36 PM   #50
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That is the funniest thing I've seen in a while.

Proof that people are sheep can be found in advertising. The power of suggestion (oo movie reference, 10 points to guess it). Advertising is proof that people can be controlled and shoveled into thinking they need something, thinking they should go to a certain place, or whatever the goal is.

**************************************************
I stand corrected. Possibly YOU are a sheep =)
I go my own way =)
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