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Old 04-26-2004, 10:12 AM   #26
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Do we then go with a purely punitive system then and dub a first time offender- albeit an egregious offense against the law and society- unable to be rehabilitated- or do we try to turn this person around?

I'm not saying today's prison system does much rehabilitation, but I'm often struck by how willing and eager certain people are to see capital punishment meted out. Especially when these same people claim to be followers of a religion of love and forgiveness and even moreso when these individuals are against abortions on the grounds of Thou Shall Not Kill. I'm not saying fetus=convicted murderer, but I'm sure you can see the dichotomy of certain individuals stances on these issues. Interesting...

I'm against capital punishment not so much because I think certain offenders don't merit such a sentence, but because we have a ***very*** fallible system of justice and we're hearing far too often about men being released from prison after decades of incarceration due to DNA evidence coming to light that exonerates them. I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't want to have the blood of an innocent man on my hands in that way. But I digress....
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:32 AM   #27
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In case this is brought up against me...

I believe if there is enough evidence, raid these bastard gangs. If they come freely (big IF) take them to court. If they shoot at you, shoot to kill because they are doing the same. Save the govt. extra cash from trial and executions (should it lead to that).

If I were a cop and was patrolling with my partner and come across some gang member that suddenly opens fire on us that kills my partner. I shoot back and say miss him and he goes off running. Minutes/hours/days pass and we are on the look out and we find that member, find him, I point him out, I say execute the guy.

Should someone not be able to point out the guy, describe him at all, but just evidence leads that he killed the cop, then let the court sort him out. He gets out years later, watch him closely.
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:36 AM   #28
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Sorry if I think that someone who kills a cop cannot be 'turned around'. Serial killers/rapists/pedophiles should be given what they get. They want to go way out of societies bounds. Then society must put them where they belong. In the case of a murderer/rapist/pedophile, that place is 6 feet under.

Actually the stance of being against abortion and for the death penalty are in no way in conflict with each other. As you pointed out a baby does not equal a convicted murderer.

And remember you can find the same dichotomy in people who are 'pro-choice' and anti-death penalty.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Flub
Actually the stance of being against abortion and for the death penalty are in no way in conflict with each other. As you pointed out a baby does not equal a convicted murderer.
I disagree: there's that whole "sanctity of human life" concept. That we, as mere people, should not play God. Many Catholics find themselves both on the conservative front regarding abortion rights and the more liberal front regarding capital punishment. While I have many disagreements with the church of my childhood, I at least admire that they don't double-talk on so-called "life issues."

Again, in light of so many instances of wrongful convictions for capital offenses, I don't know how many of you could, in good conscience, support a death penalty being on the books. Perhaps you'd think differently if it was your husband, father, son, or friend who went to his death for the crimes of another man.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:32 PM   #30
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I will argue that getting an abortion is playing God. You are deciding who lives and dies by supporting abortion.

Here are some name that help me support the Death Penalty:

Ted Bundy, Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Daumer (sp?), John Wayne Gasey(sp?). A serial killer, terrorist, cannibal/rapist and a pedophile. What good are they to society? What good does it do to keep them alive?

Perhaps I would.

Perhaps you would think differantly if a man killed you wife, father, mother, or daughter and they got off on a techincality. Or if your wife, father, mother, son or daughter was raped over and over again and then shot in the back of the head and left in the street. Then given life in prison where they could have their friends set up web pages about how they did it and how much fun they had. And then getting a phone call every year on the date your loved on died by the less than animal that did it. Maybe then you would change your mind.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:58 PM   #31
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Flub- the playing God thing is not my argument- but one cited and used both by anti-abortion rights activists as well as anti-capital punishment activists.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point: if, God forbid, a loved one of mine was murdered or raped, I would want the person who did it dead- worse than dead- by my own hands if possible. Of course I would- that's simply human nature and emotions. However, with a highly imperfect justice system, I'm not willing to give the state power to use death as a penalty when there is the very real and very constant possibility that an innocent man (or woman) could die. I'm all for life sentences- and hard sentences at that- but there's no turning back once you put the needle into that man, or flip the switch. You can't fix that mistake. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't sleep too well with the blood of a wrongfully convicted person on my hands.
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:00 PM   #32
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I disagree: there's that whole "sanctity of human life" concept.
Nope, no conflict at all. As I stated, once you take the life of another, you lose any right you had to be treated as a human being. A murderer has already shown what he contributes to society, an unborn child hasn't yet been given the chance. Big difference between the two.
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:05 PM   #33
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But Wildane, again, that is not my argument against the death penalty, but other people's. My opposition is based purely on the easily demonstrated fallibility of the judicial system.

You provide an infallible judicial system and I begin to see the merits of capital punishment. Until then, we are at an impass
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:06 PM   #34
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To tell the truth, I don't trust the justice system enough to do the right thing either way.

Although I am reminded of that old New Twilight Zone(the one from the 80's) episode. Where a man's wife is raped and on the way home from the hospital she spots that man that does it and starts screaming 'It's him!! That's him!!' The husband then follows the man into a parking garage and beats him to death with the wife in the car watching. Then as they are driving away she starts pointing to every man she sees screaming 'That's him!! He's the one!!'.
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:06 PM   #35
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With regards to Wildane's and Flub's recent posts I looked back and realized my earlier post was unclear: those are arguments often cited by others against both abortion-rights and capital punishment, not arguments I myself buy into much.
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:03 PM   #36
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What the hell does spotlight have to do with this either?

Cops use their guns. Is a criminal going to hold his fire against a cop, if he pulled a gun on a convenience store clerk? If anything the priority is reversed. Shoot at someone who is shooting at you. Yes, typically cops only shoot if the criminals open fire first, but will the criminal stop shooting just because the cop pulls the trigger? Not unless the cop has really good aim...

So making a distinction between a "cop-killer" and any other first-degree murderer is sort of backwards. You're assuming it's done for some kind of reputation when in reality it's usually done in perceived self-defense.

I'm not defending criminals of any kind here but rather trying to figure out why you're so draconian about something that is, well, an understandable offense.
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:30 PM   #37
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From the original link

There's a bounty on the heads of police officers," Levine said. "There's nothing better if you're going to prison than killing a cop."
Maybe it was a choice of words, but that's what I meant by spotlight. They will be seen "bigger" by their fellow gang members if they take out a cop. Maybe get some nice girl for a night from their gang leader/upper guys or something when he gets out. Be seen as a "hero" in the prison itself.

Originally Posted by Ares
You're assuming it's done for some kind of reputation when in reality it's usually done in perceived self-defense.
Ok, maybe I'm reading this wrong (your post, end of day does that to me ). The criminal has a choice whether or not to use his weapon. Negotiation. A criminal knows, or should, that a cop won't open fire unless he, the criminal, opens fire first. The cop can just as easily just sneak up and blow his brains out if he wanted to (using the convenience store scenario). You run into some sorry s.o.b. at times holding up stores with paintball guns/pellet guns.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:17 AM   #38
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I'm not defending criminals of any kind here but rather trying to figure out why you're so draconian about something that is, well, an understandable offense.
Because, as was stated in the article in the initial post, the subject is people who specifically target cops for the act of murder. We're not talking about criminals trying to get away and firing on cops, we're talking about the 16-year-old who was driving around looking for a cop to kill, and others like him.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:27 AM   #39
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If they shoot at you, shoot to kill because they are doing the same. Save the govt. extra cash from trial and executions (should it lead to that).
Once they shoot at you no surrender... shoot them. Anyone who took a gun with them to commit a crime has no regard for life and should be treated with the same respect (or lack of).
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