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Old 04-23-2004, 01:01 PM   #1
Vespay
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Unhappy Something a little different ...

I'm not really sure what kind of rant this categorizes itself into, but I'm here at work with nothing to do so what the hell, right?

Recently I discovered that 2 of my close friends joined the military and in early May, are being shipped off to Iraq and Germany. First off, Kudos to them for helping to protect and serve our country. Second, you stupid bastards what the heck were you thinking!?

I get sick every time I think about it, especially the one being shoved off to Iraq. Everyday I hear/see/read about on the news about how many more US soldiers were killed due to attacks by Afganistan, Iraq, and etc people. And now, some new punk with "visions" is trying to step up and replace Saddam Hussein. I say knock him off while he's young, before he gets too far ahead.

I am by far NOT racist or prejudiced in any way shape or form, but these people, if you can even call them that, no, barbarians, have totally lost my respect as a human being. They are cruel, ruthless, merciless, and will stop at nothing to achieve their "goals". They slaughter innocent pedestrians, foreigners and their own alike. They bombed the car of US civilians that were there, IN their country, trying helping them rebuild it. HELP THEM! They then sat there and watched the bodies of these people burn, and all the meanwhile they hooped and hollered and cheered.

All I can ask is, what the hell kind of human being with any slim resemblence of a conscience can do that? People have different views on what our Government should and shouldn't be doing to these people over there and how the situations should be handled, but I'm not here to talk about that. I'm here because I'm scared and sick to death with worry about my friends putting their lives on the line because some band of middle-easten fucktards.

It bewilders me how barbaric these people have become, and how hateful they are towards us. It astonishes me that they'll do absolutely anything to try and hurt us. I find it hard to believe that this world has evolved into what it is, and that it houses animals like that.

As I mentioned before, I am by far racist or anything of the sort, and I realize that not ALL of these Afganistans and Iraqi's are bad .. but for the love of God, when is it all going to stop? It won't. That's the answer. When one leader is shot down, another rises. These people, I can't even stand to call them that, teach even their children to hate us. If such a thing as Judgement Day exists, then it is hatred and cruelty like such that will bring forth that day.

I wish the best of luck, health, and safe travels to my friends. I'm sure many of you out there have friends/family that have been sent overseas to these areas, and only now can I truly begin to know what it feels like. The constant worry, the never knowing thoughts swimming in your head .. could drive one insane. My prayers are out there to those serving our country to keep it the land of the free. They deserve more credit than anyone else in the world.
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Old 04-23-2004, 01:04 PM   #2
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As a barbarian, I'm offended
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Old 04-23-2004, 01:10 PM   #3
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It's been a while since I've seen any posts from you, Vespey.

By the way, IM me some time this weekend. Hopefully I'll be around to catch them.
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Old 04-23-2004, 01:27 PM   #4
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Yeah, Zelg! New job at a law firm has been keeping me pretty busy. But I'll IM you if I see you online, same s/n right?

Hormadrune - No offense to all the barbarians out there. I've found some to be quite cute and cuddly, like big (semi smelly) teddy bears.
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Old 04-23-2004, 01:33 PM   #5
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I won't be around home for another few hours due to my own personal errands. If all else fails I'll just send you a PM via these boards, Vespey.
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Old 04-23-2004, 03:17 PM   #6
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I am by far NOT racist or prejudiced in any way shape or form, but these people, if you can even call them that, no, barbarians, have totally lost my respect as a human being. They are cruel, ruthless, merciless, and will stop at nothing to achieve their "goals". They slaughter innocent pedestrians, foreigners and their own alike. They bombed the car of US civilians that were there, IN their country, trying helping them rebuild it. HELP THEM! They then sat there and watched the bodies of these people burn, and all the meanwhile they hooped and hollered and cheered.
You must be one of those people who insist on helping people, when they appear to be in a situation that you feel is troubling for them. Akin to those born again fanatics who insist on trying to save you.

Have you ever thought that maybe...just maybe...they do not want our help? Or that this new democracy that we are forcing on them can feel the same as the tyranny of some wild muslim dictator?

You say they are cruel, ruthless, merciless, and will stop at nothing to achieve their "goals"...well who the fuck are we? They are human just as much as we are, if not more so. You don't see them squabbling over reality television.
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Old 04-23-2004, 05:04 PM   #7
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You say they are cruel, ruthless, merciless, and will stop at nothing to achieve their "goals"...well who the fuck are we? They are human just as much as we are, if not more so. You don't see them squabbling over reality television.
04-23-2004 09:33 PM
I am going to hazard a wild guess that you have never been anywhere near the middle east Foust. The women in Afghanistan who used to be professionals, doctors, lawyers, etc, until the Taliban was put into control (yes, I am aware who helped put them there,) and then all of a sudden weren't allowed to speak, work, or be seen uncovered in public upon threat of death or maiming would probably be a credible source to call them "cruel, ruthless, and merciless" wouldn't you think?

This isn't a partisan rant, it is more a statement of fact the way I see it. You have a radical element of Islam, that thru force of arms and threats, has taken over the way these countries are governed. Most of these people are so fucking scared of losing their lives, or the small amount of property they may have had the good fortune to aquire, that they will go along with whatever the ruling element of the moment is.

No matter whether you stand on the far left or the far right, I would hope that you agree that people should be free to choose how they live? Well, these people aren't, and you coming in here and making a statement that maybe they want to live that way, and we are the big evil guy for trying to force our ways on them is bullshit of the highest order.

The common denominator here is FEAR. The normal citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan are too afraid to stand up for themselves. That is why they deserve help, even if they didn't ask for it, or don't appear to appreciate it. That is also why they are fighting us, they are too afraid not to do as told, because they know someday we will be gone, and they have to pay the piper for any waves they raised against the guys with the guns in their country.

What sane person in the world doesn't want a safer place for their kids to live if given a chance? Or better schools, or better hospitals, or cleaner water? Don't cloud the facts, they want these things, they are just too afraid to stand up and fight for them.

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Old 04-23-2004, 06:04 PM   #8
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I am going to hazard a wild guess that you have never been anywhere near the middle east Foust. The women in Afghanistan who used to be professionals, doctors, lawyers, etc, until the Taliban was put into control (yes, I am aware who helped put them there,) and then all of a sudden weren't allowed to speak, work, or be seen uncovered in public upon threat of death or maiming would probably be a credible source to call them "cruel, ruthless, and merciless" wouldn't you think?

Nope, can't say I've been there. You know how long this kind of thing has been going on though? Centuries. They only difference now is the weapons being used. Muslim fundamentalists believe that women are lesser creatures. They treat them like we treated blacks back in the 60s.

There are other muslims, however, that see differently. And we know what happens when 2 religious factions collide. This is nothing new for them.

We are not the heros here. We're "saving" them from something the government put into motion.


The common denominator here is FEAR. The normal citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan are too afraid to stand up for themselves. That is why they deserve help, even if they didn't ask for it, or don't appear to appreciate it.
As opposed to the citizens of the USA who cannot do anything to change what their government is doing. How many times has the phrase "What can 1 person do?" gone through your head, or anyone else's? Once is too much. But that is another thread >..>

It's not right to go into another country kill all the guys with guns who shoot at us and give them a new system government because its for their own good. The US is not and hopefully will never claim itself to be parent to the world.


What sane person in the world doesn't want a safer place for their kids to live if given a chance? Or better schools, or better hospitals, or cleaner water? Don't cloud the facts, they want these things, they are just too afraid to stand up and fight for them.
All depends on your definition of sane, really. But yes, in most cases, people want those things. They also like to know that they can achieve it by themselves, without outside help. There is a certain level of dignity in all of this.
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:52 PM   #9
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I think the popular response form any Muslim in the middle east as to why they don't trust or dislike Americans would be because we are too close with the Jews. This doesn't sum it all up - I'm sure (and, no I haven't been there so this is definitely an outsider's point of view) - but it would give a good lead as to the source of distrust. My step-father is from Lebanon, tho - and it is refreshing to get different sides of the story from what I hear on the news. Whether any side is right for what they do is relative, ultimately (opinion, of course). But in the end, the result is that people from all sides are dying. Death! Big ugly death. The big "D". Don't think it hits you hard enough until you're dead! And by then it's too late! Wheee!

I wish there was something I could do, or the big perfect solution in the sky to make it all stop. Everybody would come to the table and say, "You know what, we all need to make compromises and they are going to be fair. Yeah, fair - and everybody is going to agree and the plan will be put into effect immediately because there has been way too much suffering and death. And what's cool about it is that there is no more death or risk or fear or misunderstanding involved. Everything is gonna be alright, and we are going to look back on this in a few years, laugh uncomfortably and change the subject. Why did we wait so long when the Uplift Mofo Party Plan was right before our very eyes?"

Imagine hearing gunfire almost every day of the week. Would be unnerving to say the least. Unfortunately we do get the almost equivalent daily news of more soldiers dying and civilians being bombed. Hits home even more if you know that person or live in the same town.

When people die, there is no winner IMO.


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Old 04-23-2004, 11:06 PM   #10
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Sounds like a Steam Vent.
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Old 04-24-2004, 11:49 AM   #11
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You say they are cruel, ruthless, merciless, and will stop at nothing to achieve their "goals"...well who the fuck are we? They are human just as much as we are, if not more so. You don't see them squabbling over reality television. Quote Foust

You've got to be kidding right? Vespay points out how barbaric these people are and you stand up for them? You stand up for cutting off someone's head and then dragging and mutilating their remains? I don't give a rat's ass what is going on, behavior like that just shows their nature. If the Iraqis came to my town and tried to take over, I am sure the people would fight, but they would not resort to disgusting crap like that. Vespay is 100% accurate in his statements--these Iraqis (the ones doing this stuff) are taking this situation and using it to fill their sick, masochist disturbed minds. Would you be capable of doing these type of things Foust? Are you saying that if the Iraqis invaded you would be doing these types of atrocities?

So in your response to the Vespay's post is that we shouldn't be there--so I guess you feel that the people who have been tortured and mutilated deserved this? You are one sick freak.
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Old 04-24-2004, 07:05 PM   #12
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You guys want to compare about 80% of the Iraqi's that are happy with us being there to about 20% that aren't.

I say we continue helping the 80% and put the other 20% out of their misery. Those 20% want to see us dead. They could care less about freedom.

Don't continue to confuse a small percentage of Iraqi's that are indeed monsters with the majority that welcome freedom.
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Old 04-24-2004, 10:30 PM   #13
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Default heh

You've got to be kidding right? Vespay points out how barbaric these people are and you stand up for them? You stand up for cutting off someone's head and then dragging and mutilating their remains? I don't give a rat's ass what is going on, behavior like that just shows their nature. If the Iraqis came to my town and tried to take over, I am sure the people would fight, but they would not resort to disgusting crap like that. Vespay is 100% accurate in his statements--these Iraqis (the ones doing this stuff) are taking this situation and using it to fill their sick, masochist disturbed minds. Would you be capable of doing these type of things Foust? Are you saying that if the Iraqis invaded you would be doing these types of atrocities?
Oh yes, barbarians! filthy dirty savages! They're all wrong! We're right, lets go show them how do it...and if they keep going back to their old ways, well lets just force them to use our ways. They'll be much happier!

Humans are capable of some pretty heinous shit bro. An important aspect of humans, before recorded history...is that the victors are the ones who bred. Your ancestors were involved in the same shit, as were everyone elses'. Weak ones die, strong ones go home and fuck the prom queen.

Sick? Who are you to call them sick. You have no god damned idea in your head how their culture works. They have more pride for themselves than we will ever have. Would you drive a truck filled with explosives into an enemy building for the sake of freedom for your brothers? The absolute fanatical courage these people exhibit is amazing and I have the utmost respect for them.

So in your response to the Vespay's post is that we shouldn't be there--so I guess you feel that the people who have been tortured and mutilated deserved this? You are one sick freak.

We're torturing people right now down in Gauntanimo, since it isn't legal on American soil. That one ex-American who moved to the ME and coincidentally joined the Taliban...they're going to hang him without a fair trial. There are snipers shooting anyone who attempts to go into hospitals in Fallujah.

Do these people deserve it? No, probably not. Our government is more subtle about its atrocities. Nothing needs to be made public, everything stays nice and quiet. All of the news organizations are fed bullshit stories, detailing the death of a hero, some heart-warming tragedy to make the population feel better.

Prime example of this was on 9/11. The plane that was shot down by the military before it could reach its target. News report said it crashed...that there was a phone call by one of the passengers saying they're gonna try something. Look at the photos. No trail of wreckage....just a big burned hole in the forest.

The government makes many moral and immoral decisions. Is it worth the number of lives on a moderately full airline to save the lives of possibly thousands more? I'd like to think so.

------

There was never any clear threat to our country. Bin Laden flew planes into buildings here. Bush sent troops to get him. They fucked up. To cover it up, "hey guys, look over there...its uh...uh..Hussein! Yea that guy..he's been making really big weapons for the past 10 years and he's got them aimed at us. Lets go kill him!"

It's all just a huge political reach-around.

And I'm gonna end this reply with one little thing that better make you think.


I watched a mother tell her child today that "those mean people that blew up the buildings in new york are being punished right now over in iraq."
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Old 04-24-2004, 10:55 PM   #14
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They have more pride for themselves than we will ever have. Would you drive a truck filled with explosives into an enemy building for the sake of freedom for your brothers? The absolute fanatical courage these people exhibit is amazing and I have the utmost respect for them.
Get the fuck out of my country you terrorist fucking cocksucker. get out NOW
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Old 04-24-2004, 11:37 PM   #15
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Fuck you.

Tell me how respect for a culture's will to fight means I am a terrorist.
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Old 04-25-2004, 03:03 AM   #16
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Respecting a culture's will to fight is different than supporting their fanatical "courage". You might not have directly said that you support their terrorist ways, but showing respect is one way of implying.

They are dying defending their views when they do these human bombs. Our troops are dying out there this very moment, just doing their duty in a more civilized? manner. Our troops do it with pride, it doesn't take any pride to run a truck into them, in fact that shows nothing but cowardice. Almost like being a lineman in football, pulling out a gun and shooting the tackle or guard in front of you then saying "hey! I blocked him! "

9/11, flying a plane into an "enemy" building, support that? Same thing as driving a truck into a building.

I'm sure an American would gladly sit in Iraq and detonate an explosive so huge it would wipe out the country once our allies and their workers were out.
Yep, I know I would, it would end this damn conflict, in Iraq at least. Why don't we? We may have other interests in Iraq, but we also know there are thousands of innocents there. We didn't hesitate on Hiroshima, we can easily show it there in Iraq. Most of the time the fanatics and their trucks kill more civilians than soldiers.

That Italian hostage that was shot as he shouted "I will show you how an Italian dies!", that is pride.

Now if you will excuse me, I will show these ants the superiority of man kind and kill them off in the name of my brothers and sisters with a can of Raid
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:03 AM   #17
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Sick? Who are you to call them sick. You have no god damned idea in your head how their culture works.

I have every right to call them sick. Our troops are over there and they are following the rules of the battle. You are one sick F*CK (first time I have gotten so rank on this board) when you sit there backing up these people. I would love to see you give these speech if you were over there being taken hostage. If you read this post in its entirely, you would know that this is not referring to ALL Iraqis, Vespay was talking about the ones who are mutilating bodies and torturing people. You feel so sorry for those ignorant pigs then you should march your ass over to Iraq and join them.

Please now that you are accusing the US of torture at Guantanamo, BACK IT UP! There is nothing even comparable of how the US treats prisoners to what these sick bastards are doing in Iraq. Shame on you for even trying to stick them in the same catagory. If you are in the US, you should be thrown out for treason, you are one screwed up jerk.
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Old 04-25-2004, 12:37 PM   #18
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Default heh

You said,
Please now that you are accusing the US of torture at Guantanamo, BACK IT UP!
I said (in the post before yours)
Our government is more subtle about its atrocities. Nothing needs to be made public, everything stays nice and quiet. All of the news organizations are fed bullshit stories, detailing the death of a hero, some heart-warming tragedy to make the population feel better.
For you delusional fools calling me a traitor..

I love America. I love our way of life. I love the..err...for lack of a better word.."vision" that the founding fathers had when they came here.

They saw a land where people could live free. Speak whatever was on their mind without consequence, worship what gods they wished or not worship at all, without fear of persecution, the right to have a say in the way the country is run.

I would gladly die to preserve those freedoms, from ANY enemy that's hellbent on taking them away from us. I would drag their carcasses through the street as a display to whoever else would try to take away my way of life. I would be warning them that to try and take away what my ancestors have fought and died for would mean a bloody slaughter.

I have every right to call them sick. Our troops are over there and they are following the rules of the battle.
Are you that dense? Rules?! What rules?! Do you think war is a fucking game? There are no rules in war. You speak of "war atrocities"...

War is an atrocity.

I don't join them because I am not one of them. I admire their spirit and their will to fight. I give credit when credit is due. They are using the tools they have, just as our soldiers are using theirs, if not better. After all, how many of our troops died needlessly to them?

I would love to see you give these speech if you were over there being taken hostage
What, you think I'd compliment them and kiss ass in the futile hope they would let me go? I'm not a fucking coward.

If I was over there and fighting, any time for speeches would be long gone. The moment I pick up a weapon, is the moment I say to myself "fuck diplomacy." If I was taken hostage? I was the lesser warrior, they beat me. If I live, I live. If not, well, I gave it my best and I did not die without a fight.
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Old 04-25-2004, 12:43 PM   #19
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Yes, war isn't a game, that is why they cannot just open fire on anyone that isn't in the coalition. I'd bet they'd be shooting holes in every Iraqi they saw, blowing up every building they saw basically just leveling out the Fallujah.
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Old 04-25-2004, 12:59 PM   #20
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Quote Foust "I said (in the post before yours)
..:: Quote ::..
Our government is more subtle about its atrocities. Nothing needs to be made public, everything stays nice and quiet. All of the news organizations are fed bullshit stories, detailing the death of a hero, some heart-warming tragedy to make the population feel better.
..:: End Quote ::..


Well at least you gave me a good laugh, I ask you to back it up and you post that you said it--who are you? You aren't an authority. So based on what you say that is your proof? You obviously haven't been hanging around these boards long enough to know what "proof" is. Proof isn't just saying what you believe. It is offering evidence that what you said is true. By gauging what you have said in your previous threads, I tend to think that you are not of sound mind, so I won't be taking your word as proof today, thank you very much.

I guess I could say that you are mentally unstable, and because I posted it here, that must be proof that you are.
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Old 04-25-2004, 01:34 PM   #21
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You seem to be under the impression that everything our country does is available in print.


No I'm not an authority on any of this. Neither are you. None of this can be proved, not publicly anyway. You give me a reason why Iraqi and Afghani and Al Qeada POWs are being held in Guantanimo instead of American soil, and it will still be just speculation. Hell, try and prove me wrong

edit: Here is a bunch of people the US has killed..http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/weapons.html

Also...you know during WW2...Japanese residents living in the country, even those that were born here, were put into concentration camps. No trials, no background checks more than finding out what country you came from...http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/intern01.htm
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Last edited by Foust Farseer; 04-25-2004 at 02:14 PM. Reason: addin some links
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Old 04-25-2004, 02:45 PM   #22
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Default torture!

Torture in Guantanamo!

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s962767.htm

http://www.independent-media.tv/item...tio nal%20Law

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20040105.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo...168592,00.html

Dont let the title of the article confuse you:http://truthout.org/docs_03/102003H.shtml
We don't torture people in America and people who say we do simply know nothing about our country", President Bush said during an interview Channel Nine taped a few days ago.
Gauntanimo is in Cuba.




Would you like to see more? (Y/N)
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Old 04-25-2004, 05:09 PM   #23
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1. None of those reports can be substantiated. None are reputable sources. Even in your reports, they state they can't substantiate.

2. IF they are true, (notice the big IF) you equate beating to cutting off someone's head? Cutting off body parts? Mutiliating bodies?

Your definition of torture is obviously very broad. Did you run to the police when you were a little boy after your parents had spanked you screaming torture?

I find it part amusing and part disgusting that you are so concerned with the "torture" of suspected terrorists but slam people who say anything regarding your "respect" for the pigs in Iraq that are really torturing/killing/mutilating our troops and our allies troops. You are seriously whacked. There is nothing in your threads to suggest that you deserve to be in America. You are the same level as those pigs in Iraq. You disgust me.
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Old 04-25-2004, 05:49 PM   #24
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Btw, the Muslim leaders thought the mutliations were horrid and uncalled for as well. It is against everything they believe in.

---
Sacrificing was a common ritual in warfare. It is obvious that the opposing force that lost were to be sacrificed. At times, the more attractive of these opponents were sacrificed as they were seen more sacred. Various friezes depict dismembered humans wielding types of weapons possibly signifying a sacrificed army. Blood would be flowing out from from their slashed or decapitated heads as well as from their severed torsos.

The head was considered a valuable trophy by many people. A human with a decapitated head ceases to exist and through this people saw strong power.

During warfare, much of this can be seen. The dominant force would decapitate their opponents and keep their heads and ride off back to their temples or cities. Sculptures showed this power as well. Gods can be seen holding up decapitated heads and even one of a human cutting of his own head.
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Some notes I took for my report on a book: Ritual Sacrifices in Ancient Peru editors of the book were Elizabeth Benson and Anita Cook.

It may have been popular back then...but their culture (Nasca) is practically gone and can mostly be seen in archaeological ruins

And they aren't banging the prom queen now
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Old 04-25-2004, 06:27 PM   #25
Foust Farseer
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Default hmmm

1. None of those reports can be substantiated. None are reputable sources. Even in your reports, they state they can't substantiate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/feat...30/jamal.shtml

Same story, same facts. Did a search for Harith on CNN.com, found a link to this story. Reputable enough?


2. IF they are true, (notice the big IF) you equate beating to cutting off someone's head? Cutting off body parts? Mutiliating bodies?
So you're saying that being confined in less-than-humane conditions and being tortured for information is not as bad as them dragging people through the streat, therefore we're in the right?

Your definition of torture is obviously very broad. Did you run to the police when you were a little boy after your parents had spanked you screaming torture?
rofl. Does it really matter what I see as torture? If you must know, I feel that any use of physical and/or mental trauma in the hopes of getting information would be torture. There are varying degrees of severity of course, but the name stands.


I find it part amusing and part disgusting that you are so concerned with the "torture" of suspected terrorists but slam people who say anything regarding your "respect" for the pigs in Iraq that are really torturing/killing/mutilating our troops and our allies troops. You are seriously whacked. There is nothing in your threads to suggest that you deserve to be in America. You are the same level as those pigs in Iraq. You disgust me.
I posted about torture because you asked me to prove it. I received a shit-ton of results googling "Guantanamo torture" alone.

As I've said, there is a difference between respect for someone and supporting someone. I do not support their "cause." Of course, I don't support our "cause" either. We shouldnt be in Iraq, that aint where the bad guys are.

I respect them because they are not just "pigs." They are humans and they have the courage to fight for their convictions, using the methods they have available, and they are good at it.

They do not have smart bombs, Apache attack choppers, tomahawk cruise missiles, or large scale nuclear capabilities. They are fighting with old guns, outdated explosives, some cars, some trucks, maybe a plane..and thats about it.

What do we got? We have a fleet of battleships as well as fully armed aircraft carriers. A bunch of jets that attack from 10,000 feet, tanks, apaches, remote-controlled surveillence craft, tomahawk cruise missiles...the works.

They do not care. They will fight to the death to save their way of life, which they feel is threatened, by US.

-----------------------------------


I'm curious as to what you think qualifies a person to live in America?

I support the freedom of speech. You can say what you want, but I don't have to listen. I can say what I want, and you don't have to listen. You're welcome to respond to what I say, as I am to what you say.

I support religious freedom. Worship what gods you will, or don't. I don't care. You can tell me all about it and how great it is, but I don't have to join you.

I support the freedom of peaceful assembly. If something pisses enough people off, lets gather in a public place and let people know about, but not hurt anyone in the process, since that gets us no positive recognition.

I am gainfully employed and pay my taxes.

I would die to protect the freedoms granted by the Constitution of the United States of America from enemies, both foreign and domestic.


What about you?

You are the same level as those pigs in Iraq. You disgust me.
But I'm on Liberty's side.
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