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Old 04-26-2004, 09:42 AM   #26
Maximus Faticus
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I know I have a little bit different opinion on this, but I think it is cut and dry with very little exceptions.
Ok, well you have a funny way of determining what makes a human being. I think what makes a sentient being goes a little beyond the physicalities. I mean, how do you expect it to breathe in the womb? Or how do you expect to feed it other than how it's set up now? Hell, every time you go scuba diving, you cease to be a person...well, until you surface and start breathing on your own again.
It is eating and breathing through the mother. It is part of the mother.

Once you pass my Human being test you will forever be a human being.
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gerick
Stop with the think of the children bullshit, there are many times when abortions are a valid life choice

1) when carrying it to term will most likly kill the mother
First of all, this never happens. No living baby has ever been recorded having to be aborted to save a mother's life. Dead ones have, but not an actual living child.

Originally Posted by Gerick
2) when the child is brain dead, or extremely retard(almost vegi state)
So retarded people and "vegies" don't deserve to live...? Should we be just like Hitler and empty the hospitals and asylums of them because we are "doing them a service"? Who are you to judge their quallity of life?

Originally Posted by Gerick
3) when she is raped, i wouldnt want the little bastard rapist gene to keeping going, being from a broken home further increases the chances of crime becoming provalent in the child life
So what you are saying about this "rapist gene" is we need to rub it out...? Alright, so if one of your parents commited a murder let's say, we need to kill you to breed out that "gene". I doubt rape is is any way shape or form genetic. And rape, which is not even half a percent of reasons for abortions, makes the child less human?

You know how high suicide rates are in women who have abortions? You are saying a woman in the broken state of mind after rape is in the right mind to make a decision about a child's life? With adoption out there, that could be a blessing to her... And is that child not part of her?

Originally Posted by Gerick
4) when the child cant be cared for by mother, father or outside sources, for example in china they have so many kids up for adoption that they had to water down the baby food, the staff did it a little to much and ended up being responsible for over 500 infant deaths, and nothing was done to fix the the problems or to punish the workers
I don't think this has anything to do with abortion. Has to do with neglect. Both are murder, and if they truly needed to feed these kids, they could have. Abuse happens in group homes and even in many domestic situations, does not make them worth being aborted to "make the pain go away".

Originally Posted by Gerick
5) when the child will come out with aids for sure, i mean this as mercy to the baby, that is a HORRIBLE and short life, way to tragic for the child imo
First of all, you don't know enough about AIDS if you think it is a death sentance. With modern science, AIDS patiences are living longer, better, and healthier.

In fact, if a Mother takes one of the fine modern AIDS Cocktails, there is a 2/3 chance her baby could be born without AIDS.

Also, let's look as some human beings. Magic Johnson has so little AIDS, he could pass a conventional AIDS test with a negative. No, it is not cured, but with proper treatment, which is available very well in the United States, one can live a life...

What is he only lived 12 years...? Would he not still have the dignity of life...? What is 12 years to 70 years...? The knowledge and insights of life are countless. A terminally ill case was not better off dead... They were better off experiencing the life owed to them by their rights.
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by AresProphet
You know where I stand on the matter so I have little input except a solution for stopping the "slippery slope" argument about, "When is it a child?"

Hindsight. We can look back at millions upon millions of premature births, and make our decision based on that. Here's how the process might look:

Determine at what age is there a statistically significant chance of survival. Say, a four month old fetus might have a 90% chance to live, a three month fetus a 70% chance, and so on... decide whatever % is most reasonable.

Read this carefully and realize i'm not actually talking about premature births, but instead allowing us to determine at what age we can consider a fetus to be a child, using information at our disposal.
So a human being's dignity is in statistics if it can survive or not...? As a Cancer patient with a 10% possibillity os survival isn't a human?

Originally Posted by AresProphet
Other than that, if parents choosing an abortion are made well aware of the risks involved I can't say much else. It's a choice you made, so don't go trying to blame anyone else for it.
Pick up a pamphlet at a local Planned Parenthood. They will tell you abortions are very safe. And to this day legally they are still allowed to lie to you about a multitude of things.

They don't have to tell you correct statistics.

They don't have to tell you the risks.

In fact, they do prey on women. You know how many cases when to trial, books written, and protests over traumitized teenagers going to Planned Parenthood and being talked into aborting?

Planned Parenthood is a buisness that makes its money on contraception and abortions. And don't buy that non-for-profit crap.

If they truly were not a buisness, a week after 9/11, there were NO ABORTIONS in NYC. None. People were in to much grief and realized humanity for at least a short while.

Planned Parenthood advertised free abortions to get people to come back.
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Old 04-26-2004, 11:29 AM   #29
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First of all, this never happens.
Completely incorrect and I know it to be incorrect because an Aunt of mine was told that she was too frail to carry her pregnancy to term due to her small size, having suffered from a muscle disorder as a child.

The numbers are higher then you think.

Secondly, mothers who have AIDs over 6 months before conception have a 1 in 25 chance of having a baby that does not carry the HIV virus. Mothers who contract AIDs during the pregnancy dont have the odds you've suggested.

We had this discussion not so long ago and I am totally in favour of the right to abortion in cases such as those described above.

Down Syndrome,
HIV,
Vegetative state induced by trauma during pregnancy,
rape,
the list goes on.

And I guarantee to all you "pro-lifers" that you too will apreciate the right to abortion when the doctor first tells you that your baby is never going to be a normal healthy baby.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:03 PM   #30
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Horma, I called my mommy and she told me I was right, so pffft, THERE!!!!

It is YOU who fails to understand the simplicity of the issue and prefer to hide behind the term "pro choice" when you want to give a woman the 'right' to kill her child. And did I ever post that I was "Pro Life"? NO!!! If I were "pro life", then I would have to be "anti capital punishment", which I am not. I am "ANTI ABORTION", plain and simple. I am AGAINST the killing of unborn children. The argument you posted I have heard countless times given by the "Pro Abortion" side, \whine "I am not pro abortion, I just want the woman to have a choice". Abortion is NOT a choice, any more than homocide is a choice. And like we both said, neither of us will budge on the issue, it is an endless argument.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Maximus
It is eating and breathing through the mother. It is part of the mother.
It is dependent on the mother, but that doesn't mean that it's not a separate lifeform. It's kept in the womb for the gestation period to protect it and give it a safe environment in which to develop. This isn't much different from a child outside of the womb. Granted, they're not physically conjoined, but the bond is still there. They still depend on their parents for food, shelter, clothing, etc. It will carry its parents' DNA for the rest of its life and pass it on to its own children. It will never not be a part of the mother in one form or another. Using that particular criteria to determine sentient vs. non-sentient life is, in my opinion, a bit flawed.


Originally Posted by Kerryn
And I guarantee to all you "pro-lifers" that you too will apreciate the right to abortion when the doctor first tells you that your baby is never going to be a normal healthy baby.
Not true in my case. Even if I knew beforehand that my child was going to be "flawed" in some way, I'd choose to keep them and give them a chance to make something of themselves. I work part-time in a children's hospital, and see all sorts of "flawed" children on a regular basis. In spite of their various health problems, the majority of the kids I come into contact with under those circumstances are the happiest, most caring, well-adjusted, patient, and compassionate kids I've ever met. They're loved and doted on, and they return it. They brighten the lives of their parents and the other people around them. Yes, there's sadness, but there's also a lot of happiness.

I also know too many people who've overcome difficult odds and become something "more" than anyone ever expected. Most people are imperfect in one form or another, but it doesn't mean they can't contribute to the world around them, or shouldn't be given a chance to find their own happiness. There are also quite a few "complete" people that still manage to be unhappy, or to squander the good fortune they have.

Without even taking a particular pro-life/pro-choice stance on this issue, I do think it's extremely tricky and extremely arrogant to interfere with the miracle of life, or to attempt to determine whether or not an unborn child has the right to try to survive in this world. Abortion isn't like a carwash. You don't just drive through and move on with life when it's over. It stays with you, and who's to say how that child's life...and your life...might have been different if that child had been given a chance?
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:10 PM   #32
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Inmountains, you're babbling. Again. Wipe off the froth and listen to reason. I'm not interested in debating the finer points of the abortion issue: I know you are against abortion rights and you know I am in favor of their preservation.

My dispute is with your imposing propaganda-laden terms on what is already a loaded topic and insisting they be accepted as absolutes. I am even giving your side the benefit of the doubt and calling it anti-abortion rather than anti-choice. You can rant and rave all you want- hell, get down on your belly and kick your feet and flail your arms if it makes you feel better- but the simple, indisputable fact of the matter is that you are trying to dictate terminology here using emotion not logic.

As long as you were on the phone to your mommy you might have asked her why she didn't have an abortion. Alas, hindsight is 20/20....
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Kerryn
And I guarantee to all you "pro-lifers" that you too will apreciate the right to abortion when the doctor first tells you that your baby is never going to be a normal healthy baby.
That has got to be one of the most disturbing comments I have ever seen written. I guess your high morals and values would discard the baby because he/she wasn't normal?

I on the other hand would appreciate the time I would get to spend with my child. Whether it was for a second, minute, hour, day, month, year, decade or beyond.

A good friend of mine was told that her son would be born mentally retarded and she would either 1) die giving birth to him or 2) never be able to have children again. Turns out that te doctor was wrong. Her son is perfectly normal and a member of the National Honor Society. She has had 2 more children. Both of which are fine athletes.

Wasn't Beethoven born deaf, or atleast with a hearing disorder? I geuss he should have been aborted. After all he wasn't a 'normal healthy baby'.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:19 PM   #34
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Horma

GUNS - Pro or Anti
IMMIGRATION - Pro or Anti
ENVIRONMENTALISM - Pro or Anti
SEGREGATION - Pro or Anti
ad nauseum

Yes, you can have varying degrees in there, but when it comes to ending a pregnancy, there is NO gray area. It's like being "sort of pregnant", doesn't exist.

My mommy was ANTI ABORTION which is why I was born. Now wasn't it silly for you to post that she should have had one!!!!

Oh, by the way, I am "Pro Choice", I think any man and woman who want to get married and then have sex should have the choice to do so!!

THE MOST PROPAGANDIST TERM ever created in this argument is "PRO CHOICE" and you have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. And here I thought you were a better logical thinker than that!!!

Also, the flame, "Your mommy should have aborted you" is really getting OLD. Can't you guys think up something more original than that? Woops, my bad, no Liberal can ever have an original thought!!!
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:20 PM   #35
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oops...double post
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:26 PM   #36
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Default well

Abortion should be legal.

If you are not the current or previous owner of the penis and/or vagina involved with the construction of aforementioned child, you have no right to say whether the child may or may not be carried to term.

It should be up to the parents and their doctor, and the government should worry about more important things.

----


That aside, Buddhist or Hindu (i forget which >..<), they believe that a reincarnated soul enters the body of the fetus 49 days after conception. This goes hand in hand with the development of the pineal gland develops in your brain.

This function of this gland was previously unknown by any medical intelligence. It is located in the exact geometric center of the human skull and is thought to be known as the "Third Eye" by spiritual aspirants.

The Pineal Gland is about the size of a pea, and is in the center of the brain in a tiny cave behind and above the pituitary gland which lies a little behind the root of the nose. It is located directly behind the eyes, attached to the third ventricle.

The true function of this mysterious gland has long been contemplated by philosophers and Spiritual Adepts. Ancient Greeks believed the pineal gland to be our connection to the Realms of Thought. Descartes called it the Seat of the Soul. This gland is activated by Light, and it controls the various biorhythms of the body. It works in harmony with the hypothalamus gland which directs the body's thirst, hunger, sexual desire and the biological clock that determines our aging process.

When the pineal gland awakens one feels a pressure at the base of the brain. This pressure will often be experienced when connecting to higher frequency. A head injury can also activate the Third Eye - Pineal Gland.

While the physiological function of the pineal gland has been unknown until recent times, mystical traditions and esoteric schools have long known this area in the middle of the brain to be the connecting link between the physical and spiritual worlds. Considered the most powerful and highest source of ethereal energy available to humans, the pineal gland has always been important in initiating supernatural powers. Development of psychic talents has been closely associated with this organ of higher vision.

When activated, the pineal gland becomes the line of communication with the higher planes. The crown chakra reaches down until its vortex touches the pineal gland. Prana, or pure energy, is received through this energy center in the head. With Practice the vibration level of the astral body is raised, allowing it to separate from the physical.

To activate the 'third eye' and perceive higher dimensions, the pineal gland and the pituitary body must vibrate in unison, which is achieved through meditation and/or relaxation. When a correct relationship is established between personality, operating through the pituitary body, and the soul, operating through the pineal gland, a magnetic field is created. The negative and positive forces interact and become strong enough to create the 'light in the head.' With this 'light in the head' activated, astral projectors can withdraw themselves from the body, carrying the light with them.

Astral travel, and other occult abilities, are closely associated with the development of the 'light in the head'. After physical relaxation, concentration upon the pineal gland is achieved by staring at a point in the middle of the forehead. Without straining the muscles of the eye, this will activate the pineal gland and the 'third eye'. Beginning with the withdrawal of the senses and the physical consciousness, the consciousness is centered in the region of the pineal gland. The perceptive faculty and the point of realization are centralized in the area between the middle of the forehead and the pineal gland. The trick is to visualize, very intently, the subtle body escaping through the trap door of the brain. A popping sound may occur at the time separation of the astral body in the area of the pineal gland.

Visualization exercises are the first step in directing the energies in our inner systems to activate the 'third eye'. The magnetic field is created around the pineal gland, by focusing the mind on the midway point between the pineal gland and the pituitary body. The creative imagination visualizes something, and the thought energy of the mind gives life and direction to this form.

'Third eye' development, imagination, and visualization are important ingredients in many methods to separate from the physical form. Intuition is also achieved through 'third eye' development. Knowledge and memory of the astral plane are not registered in full waking consciousness until the intuition becomes strong enough. Flashes of intuition come with increasing consistency as the 'third eye' as activated to a greater degree, through practice.

The pineal gland corresponds with divine thought after being touched by the vibrating light of Kundalini. Kundalini starts its ascent towards the head center after responding to the vibrations from the 'light in the head.' The light is located at the top of the sutratma, or 'soul thread', which passes down from the highest plane of our being into the physical vehicle.

The 'third eye,' or 'eye of Siva,' the organ of spiritual vision, is intimately related to karma, as we become more spiritual in the natural course of evolution.

As human beings continue to evolve further out of matter, on the journey from spirit to matter back to spirit, the pineal gland will continue to rise from its state of age-long dormancy, bringing back to humanity astral capacities and spiritual abilities.

At certain brainwave frequencies, a sense of ego boundary vanishes. In the theta state, we are resting deeply and still conscious, at the threshold of drifting away from or back into conscious awareness. As the brain enters deeper states, our consciousness is less concerned with the physical state, our 'third eye' is active, and separation becomes natural. Many native traditions and mystical practices refer to the ability of 'seeing,' or being aware of energy fields at higher levels. This abstract awareness is much more subjective and does not involve the normal level of mundane consciousness, which is mostly concerned with self-identity. This 'seeing' refers to the sight of the 'third eye'.

Consciousness is raised from an emotional nature into an illumined awareness when the pineal gland is lifted from dormancy. If the pineal gland is not yet fully developed, it will be in the course of evolution. When our sense of ego and personality are set aside and we keep our mental energy intact, we can become conscious of the non-physical, our inner self, the subconscious, through different practices to activate the 'light in the head.'

...

Just thought you'd like to know.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:34 PM   #37
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Inmountains, I already said that the term "pro-abortion-rights" would suffice. "Pro-choice," you rightly point out, is just as loaded a term as "pro-life," since like pro-life implies the opposing side is pro-death, pro-choice implies that the opposing side is against choice.

You're over-simplifying with your "Pro/Con" choice on all issues- and I hope you know it. I am for restricted gun ownership. Does that make me pro guns or anti-guns? Makes me both actually. There's tons of gray area and that's why Roe v. Wade happened as well as why this is still a highly-debated issue today.

Pro-abortion is a ridiculous term however. After all- if I was pro-abortion, wouldn't that mean that when my soon to be wife gets pregnant I would automatically choose to abort the pregnancy? No, I am in favor of our having the right to abort that fetus if we deemed it to be necessary however.

Huge differences here IM, that even you should be able to understand. Re-read this a few times, sound out the big words if you need to, and come back to me when your logical thinking circuit gets flipped back on. As it stands now you're talking in circles and the softer, gentler Horm is starting to pity you for your inability to figure this out. And I don't like to spend much pity on conservatives since there are so many others more deserving...
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:35 PM   #38
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And as for Foust....yikes!
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:44 PM   #39
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"Soon to be wife?" Horm? My condolences!!!

JK. Congrats on your upcoming marriage, I hope you two have lots of kids and a wonderful life!!!
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:52 PM   #40
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Great post Flub Man and I have friend's who went thru things just like that where the doctors were wrong.
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:01 PM   #41
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Lots of kids- no thanks My father was the oldest of eleven. I'll take 2 or 3 and call it good
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Old 04-26-2004, 04:55 PM   #42
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Inmountains you are proving to be a true idiot, of the absolute worst caliber.
You divide every issue into two distinct areas of black and white (which there are shades of grey to), openly biasing your labels of each "side" as PRO or ANTI to issues that no sane person would be completely against, nor would they be for without any regulation whatsoever.

So, it isn't a child until it's in its early 20s? Oh, and that should read "The fetus isn't considered a child in my opinion until the umbilical cord is cut and living on it's own. Using that logic, siamese twins aren't two individuals, but one person, since they're attached and all.
Wildane, grow up. That "in my opinion" bullshit is pure pedantry. By definition anything you say is only "in your opinion", but we don't need to label it as such. It's implied, and you picking on something so inconsequential is just a distraction.

And while I disagree with umbilical separation as the defining factor, I can see where the argument comes from. He said "living on its own". He did not say "self-sufficiently living in it's own house with a job", because there is a monumental difference. With the umbilical cord attached, the fetus' life, in the most primal sense of the word, is dependent on the mother. I don't think this is necessarily true, given the number of successful premature births throughout history, but it's a point many find valid.

So a human being's dignity is in statistics if it can survive or not...? As a Cancer patient with a 10% possibillity os survival isn't a human?
I said nothing of the sort. I didn't even give a concrete number; for some, 10% survival will be more than enough. I left that up to the reader to decide, to debate about reasonably instead of with ridiculous arguments made out of fear.

Additionally, the cancer patient still has a choice to discontinue treatment. The only difference is that the child cannot make that decision, and is legally under the protection of the parent, who makes the choice. Combined with my earlier assertion that we decide the point of abortion statistically, we can provide a solution to the argument of "where does life begin" by determining it with hindsight.

Furthermore we must still consider that it is a right to have an abortion. The only argument I have heard against that right, that doesn't resort to bickering about the fetus itself, is that the parents have to be "responsible for their actions". This is tantamount to punishing couples who have unprotected sex by forcing them to have a child!

Pick up a pamphlet at a local Planned Parenthood. They will tell you abortions are very safe. And to this day legally they are still allowed to lie to you about a multitude of things.

They don't have to tell you correct statistics.

They don't have to tell you the risks.

In fact, they do prey on women. You know how many cases when to trial, books written, and protests over traumitized teenagers going to Planned Parenthood and being talked into aborting?

Planned Parenthood is a buisness that makes its money on contraception and abortions. And don't buy that non-for-profit crap.
Explain to me, please, how they profit from abortions? They may have stock in Trojan condoms or something people will use anyway but an abortion is a medical procedure performed by a doctor, not a kit you do it at home with (unless they have stock in wire hangers )

If, as you claim (without much support), they purposefully mislead women on the issue of abortion they should be held accountable and rewrite their literature on the subject. Education is the problem, and that can be fixed not by eliminating the choice altogether, but informing those who might make that choice.

Finally, the stories from teenagers who have abortions and regret it: once again, education is the problem. Resigning yourself to the ignorance of the general public and making policy based on that assumption is just unethical. Yes, some people are going to make stupid choices. What you don't hear (or, what you do hear but often choose to ignore) is the many many many women who have abortions and never had a problem. Those who have problems are understandably going to be more vocal, just as people who kill others with guns attract much more attention than those who simply hunt with them.
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:38 PM   #43
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Granted, they're not physically conjoined, but the bond is still there.
Right....

Let me guess, the third eye?
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Old 04-26-2004, 07:36 PM   #44
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This is such a polarizing subject. Why even bring it up unless you are looking to start an argument?

Everyone has their own feelings on the subject. The problem is no one wants to give an inch...it is all or nothing.

As far as Im concerned...it is no one else's business what one woman chooses to do with her body. She is the one who has to deal with it. I personally dont condone it, but then again I dont have a womb.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:12 AM   #45
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It's implied, and you picking on something so inconsequential is just a distraction.
Kinda like you arguing over my use of the phrase "PC", hmm?
He said "living on its own". He did not say "self-sufficiently living in it's own house with a job", because there is a monumental difference.
Hey, no shit Sherlock! LOL, in case you missed it (which you apparently did), that part of my post was in complete jest. You really need to get more sleep, Ares.
I don't think this is necessarily true, given the number of successful premature births throughout history, but it's a point many find valid.
People may find it valid (some people also find seances a valid source of communication), but to me it's way to simplistic a basis on determining when life starts.
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Old 04-27-2004, 05:47 AM   #46
Kerryn
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Not true in my case. Even if I knew beforehand that my child was going to be "flawed" in some way, I'd choose to keep them and give them a chance to make something of themselves.
Oh, you'd choose would you? You're advocating the removal of choice though.

I used to teach outdoor activities to handicapped kids, and many of them go on to live a full life. They adapt but generally do everything you and I do. But many do not. I'm not talking about children who are born with a club foot, or phalidamide. I'm talking about kids with problems so bad that they will never live any semblance of a normal life, whose parents will have to do everything for them for the entirety of their natural and usually shortened lives. I'm also talking about children with ailments which cause them constant pain.

I made a decision a long time ago what I personally would carry on with. If I lost an arm, what would I do, if I lost a leg, or both legs. What would I wish if I were rendered brain dead etc. My family know that if anything happens to me then my life is forfeit. I have a "dying will" So I have to make that decision for those in my guardianship, including the life of any unborn children.

Abortion isn't like a carwash. You don't just drive through and move on with life when it's over. It stays with you, and who's to say how that child's life...and your life...might have been different if that child had been given a chance?
You're right. Making the decision to have an abortion isn't easy and it isn't cut and dry, but you do move on with life afterwards. But in the same way that Abortion isn't like a carwash neither is sacrficing your entire life and in many cases that of your family to raise a child with downs syndrome, or a child whose brain is completely unfunctional. Life might be completely different if you allow that "feotus" to live. It might be a hell of a lot worse. Once you understand that concept you understand the right to abortion.

That has got to be one of the most disturbing comments I have ever seen written. I guess your high morals and values would discard the baby because he/she wasn't normal?
Yes. That is what abortion is.

What we define as normal is the argument really. I'm not in favour of abortion because you fucked up and didn't use protection. I'm not in favour of aborting a feotus with a hearing deficiency. Im talking about severe genetic defects which mean that child could never live any semblance of normal life.

My fiancee and I made a decision that we would not continue the pregnancy of a child with downs syndrome. Neither of us believed we could care for that child. We do not have the dedication, or the patience.

There are many occasions where a doctor gives incorrect information. There are many cases in which doctors have told people there child will be born with serious problems where the baby has gone on to be fine. But with todays modern science, we can be pretty accurate. For every time a doctor get's it wrong, they get it right a hundred times more. I am not prepared to take that risk. The odds aren't in my favour.

There are many illnesses we can breed out of existence, or abort at a later stage if we make this decision now. If not our descendants will be having the same argument in 300 years time.

But all big and brave you carry on. And one day your doctor might be telling you theres a 99% chance of your unborn child being severely retarded or brain dead. Then your attitude will change, and there's nothing you can say to me which will make me believe you will not feel this way.
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Old 04-27-2004, 05:48 AM   #47
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Ares, are you really that STUPID? Did I NOT say "varying degrees" in my post, you are the IDIOT!!! I then went on to say that the topic of abortion doesn't have the varying degrees like those other one's I mentioned. I only listed a few things to show that you can be "pro" or "anti" on a myriad of given things, WITH the caveat that there can be varying degrees on most of them.

Other's have posted, as well as myself, that this is really a polarizing issue. And the PRO ABORTION people using such as assinine term as "Pro Choice" just irks me to NO END. The child HAS NO CHOICE, so how you can even use that term is beyond my comprehension. Ultra sounds have even shown, over and over again, the child in the womb trying to avoid the butcher's knife chasing it and the child always loses, as does our "civilized" society.
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:17 AM   #48
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Until you stop using the term "pro abortion" Inmountains, you look like a raving moron. I have explained this multiple times in this thread. I don't expect you to change your mind about the core issue here- abortion- but if you can't even see fit to stop using the grossly biased terminology you have been then there's no point in my continuing to hold your hand and educate you.

I'd be interested in seeing ultrasounds of fetuses fleeing the "butcher's knife" as you put it. Any links?
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Old 04-27-2004, 07:55 AM   #49
Kerryn
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Hey Inmountains...answer my question.

Raped 12 year old
Now suffering AIDS,
Baby wont live past the age of 10. What little life it does have will be full of illness and pain.
Mother told that due to her size the child is likely to kill her.

Would you allow an abortion in this case?

To me it sounds like you're just getting more furious, yet less coherent, and no more effective in your argument.
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Old 04-27-2004, 08:06 AM   #50
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Slight addition. My son is exactly 16 weeks old today and he wouldn't budge if you swung an axe at him.

He simply has no concept of what an axe would do if it hit him in the head, nor would an unborn baby understand what the "butchers knife" is.
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