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Old 04-23-2004, 09:04 PM   #26
bumbleroot
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No Bumble...the difference is you libs don't believe there is anything worth fighting for or defending...even the lives of your own family
This is far off base. If I am not mistaken- John Kerry Signed up for the military to fight in Vietnam. The problem with you cons is you think that everything is worth killing over- us libs have some judiciousness. We don't kill for killing's sake. All you guys want is blood to satiate your primal instincts. That has nothing to do with being sensible.

And Shard- I am too old to be allowed into the military.
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Old 04-23-2004, 09:14 PM   #27
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:12 PM   #28
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There were 2 parts to my question though Bum, do you feel the effort in Afghanistan is justified and would you serve. You yourself said that you would find other ways to serve if you felt the cause was justified. So either A, you dont feel the war effort there is justified or B, you are serving, or C.. and this is most likely, you are talking just to hear yourself talk.

If its A (and deep down its your only reasonable response) then I would be most anxious to hear what you consider justifiable reasons for going to war.
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Old 04-24-2004, 02:30 PM   #29
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bumbler, you forgot to say that we also kill unborn babies. DOH, oh wait that is the libs.
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Old 04-24-2004, 03:51 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
This is far off base. If I am not mistaken- John Kerry Signed up for the military to fight in Vietnam. The problem with you cons is you think that everything is worth killing over- us libs have some judiciousness. We don't kill for killing's sake. All you guys want is blood to satiate your primal instincts. That has nothing to do with being sensible.

And Shard- I am too old to be allowed into the military.

Big words from someone who's never heard a shot fired in anger...

Killing is not some sport. It is also not something that is particularly enjoyable, nor something to discuss on a message board. It is not something the "cons" enjoy, no more than us grunts on the ground. It is just one of those things that has to be done.

BTW, your whole "holier than thou" perspective is guranteed to change when the "evil bad men" start to shoot at you.

Im out...
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Old 04-24-2004, 06:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bumbleroot
Not many cons on these boards are willling to actually fight for what they are willing to talk about.
Bumbleroot you always imply that only con's are for the war. I know you said "Con's on this board", but many many times you have implied that Con's are for this war. I hate to bust your bubble, but I have spoken with many democrats that think we are doing the right thing in Iraq and on the path we are taking for the War on Terrorism.
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:05 AM   #32
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man bumbler you get owned so much on this board.
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:29 AM   #33
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And Chuk, while you are at it comfortably raiding zones, you could actually get off your ass and make the same sacrifices rather than calling others heroes. Not many cons on these boards are willling to actually fight for what they are willing to talk about
This pissed me off...there are alot of people who want to serve and CAN'T due to whatever reasons the army gives..medical and what not.

Ah for the comment about enlistment being down...re-enlistment is up....and from what I have read enlistment is going right along as well...
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Old 04-25-2004, 12:51 PM   #34
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yeah it is pretty weak when someone uses a form of entertainment they like against them.

bumbler, we never use your addiction to midget porn and cheetos against you.
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Old 04-25-2004, 01:17 PM   #35
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There were 2 parts to my question though Bum, do you feel the effort in Afghanistan is justified and would you serve. You yourself said that you would find other ways to serve if you felt the cause was justified. So either A, you dont feel the war effort there is justified or B, you are serving, or C.. and this is most likely, you are talking just to hear yourself talk.
The war in Afghanistan is justified. I am too old to even be accepted into the military. I know because I checked into it. Not with the intent of serving, but with the possible intent of serving. I was prepared on 9/11 to be ready to serve if needed. I was too old then.
There is no capacity that I know of that I can serve in Afghanistan. Even if there were, I am not going to serve in an area that I know is poorly managed. I am not going to serve for a corporation that sits in the back pocket of politicians. I do not serve as well as I could, and I could do more.

But the crux of my point is that you cons continually are calling anyone liberal a pussy because they are not in favor of Iraq. Almost all of us are in favor of Afghanistan. Because you so consistently call others pussies, I feel you are the ones that should have your motives and bravery questioned. It is not us liberals calling people pussy because they don't favor the war. If you favor it and you don't go and help, then in my opinion you have no right to call anyone a pussy about it. You just haven't earned that right.
I can guarantee you that I am not calling anyone not going to Afghanistan a pussy because they didn't go. I haven't earned that right myself.

If its A (and deep down its your only reasonable response) then I would be most anxious to hear what you consider justifiable reasons for going to war.
For some fucked up reason of testosterone addiction and Rambo movies, you cons feel war is justified anytime it is proposed by a conservative and pretty much only for that reason. Hence its all about politics for you cons.
Although you cons don't have a clue what nuances are, there are plenty of nuances to this question.
To begin with going to war as the US military is different than going to war with NATO or the UN peacekeepig forces. NATO has a different threshold than the US does. For NATO, if there is a situation that warrants world intervention and the countries agree to fight, this should be done. That is our obligation to NATO, we should live up to it. For the US, we should fight if we are attacked. If we aren't attacked and we fear an attack, the situations should be meaningful. We should attack if this threat is immediately imminent and all means of diplomacy have failed.
To throw in another nuance, we should not fight the war on terror by our lonesome. We have got to have international support to fight it. It is a world issue, not an American issue. We have GOT TO continue firm international support for the US in this fight.
The war in Afghanistan was justified. I do believe that this wasn't necessarily the way to cut off Al Qaeda though. It is only part of the equation. I think Terrorism is a world problem and exists throuhgout the world. I fail to see many countries lining up behind us to fight Al Qaeda. This should be the number one focus on this administration. Building an international anti-terrorism force is a necessity. It exists way too many ways and in too many places.
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Old 04-25-2004, 06:38 PM   #36
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One of the things the war in Iraq does, it is will make it to where the fighting in the middle east is only us tracking down terrorist. All the muslim nations lead by extremist now see that America isnt the 'sleeping giant' they thought it was. Put the war in their backyard and let them feel the heat.

Bumbler, you will rationalize anything, wont you?
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Old 04-26-2004, 04:22 AM   #37
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This guy is just... unreal.

I can't say much else. How often do you run into the sort of person who, throughout his life, gives his absolute best, which tops the best efforts of most of us out there? How often does a person, having achieved everything you could dream of, abandon it for a higher cause? Loyalty to his family and his country above any consideration for himself, including publicity. Him and his brother both refused any media attention, something especially unheard of nowadays. Ninety-nine percent of athletes, actors, and anyone with even a faint portion of the media spotlight, always act like they are being watched. Not him.

Granted, he probably did not imagine he would end up dying in some shithole in the desert, but he knew there was a risk, and I'd be a fool to assume he hadn't considered it. Even so I can't help but think that somehow, as his convoy was ambushed, he was perhaps scared, thinking, "This isn't how it's supposed to happen." Because it never is, when you get right down to it. Sacrifices should never go beyond what we are willing to give up. Tillman could give up his money, his future, time with his wife... but his life?

Not that any soldier is any different. A live soldier is far better than a dead one, and I doubt anyone except the suicidal truly would choose death over life.

The irony, then, is that his death achieves exactly what he intended to avoid. Had Tillman survived he would return, almost assuredly be offered another contract (what team would pass him up?) and life would go on, as a man who just "did his duty." But his death... suddenly the spotlight is all over him, branding him a true American hero, and even some calling him a wasted pawn in a useless match (such callous disregard for a life...).

So while we certainly should revere someone whose story is worthy of a Homeric epic, a Greeklike hero fighting a just war ending in tragedy... we must still remember a few things. Eight hundred things, to be a little closer to the mark: all those who also have given the same sacrifice.

Some will argue that they didn't give up such a future as Tillman, but why should that matter? What a pittance is a contract, a career, when you add it to the immeasurable loss of a human life? It has been said that death is the great equalizer; it rings true here. Value Tillman no more than any other soldier lost, and no less. Hold him in no higher regard than any other, for you demean countless hundreds in the past year, thousands in the past decades, millions and billions in all of human history, if you position his sacrifice above any single other out there.

And most of all, remember that he, in life, did not want the spotlight. I would wager a tidy sum that he wouldn't want it now either.
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Old 04-26-2004, 04:50 AM   #38
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Ares, wow, we totally agree. Tillman would not want the spotlight now any more than he wanted it when he enlisted. The ONLY difference is that the public KNOWS Tillman through his professional NFL career and we don't know most of the others who are serving. The sacrifice given by the welfare child or the person who walked away from a multi million dollar contract is NO DIFFERENT. The Bible states, "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friend" (family, country, etc...)

One of the things that also impressed me about Tillman was that he walked away from Officer training so he could serve with his brother. Tillman had a College Degree and qualified for Officer training but his brother did not have a degree, so he chose to serve with his brother.

So I honor ALL the fallen heroes, ALL the heroes who have served in the past, all the heroes who are currently serving, and ALL the heroes who are yet to serve. THANK YOU!

War SUCKS, but the alternative SUCKS EVEN MORE!!!!
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:11 AM   #39
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War SUCKS, but the alternative SUCKS EVEN MORE!!!!
Peace?
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Old 04-26-2004, 07:55 AM   #40
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"Peace?"

NO

The alternatives are, "Hitler", "Pol Pot", "Saddam Hussein", etc.. Also, vulnerability, slavery, bondage, etc....
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Old 04-26-2004, 08:12 AM   #41
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There is another alternative but I don't think you understand the word.

Diplomacy.
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Old 04-26-2004, 08:21 AM   #42
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The Bible states, "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friend" (family, country, etc...)
Who died and made you God? I don't recall the bible saying "country" in this. I suppose that is just your interpretation.


Also IM, you suggest that the alternative to war is pacifism. That is so off base. You assume that all dictators will go unchecked. That is also not a stance of many on the left. What you fail to remember is that even though the Republicans like to paint the Democrats as the party of pacifism, the Democrats have a greater history of going to war than the Republicans. It was FDR that clamored to get us into WWII. He knew the heart of what Hitler was. It was JFK and LBJ that got us fully into Vietnam. Clinton got us into Bosnia. Bush Sr. into Iraq. What you fail to realize or even accept is that any President is going to defend our country against aggressors. They know that is their duty. Even the great peaceful president Jimmy Carter understood when to use force. He was a WWII veteran and a graduate of the Naval Academy.
The problem with your assessment is that you believe force should be used anytime a politician looks for someone to bully upon. Hussein just wasn't a threat to the US. He was created as a demagogue by politicians to incite the gullable people like you into going to war for political reasons.
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Old 04-26-2004, 08:22 AM   #43
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Unless diplomacy=threat of force, there is no such word in the vocabulary of the current administration, nor in its sycophants.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:28 PM   #44
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..:: Quote ::..
The Bible states, "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friend" (family, country, etc...)
..:: End Quote ::..
Who died and made you God? I don't recall the bible saying "country" in this. I suppose that is just your interpretation.
IM's friends make up his family and they fill the country he lives in. bumbler, dont be such a prick and start nit picking about his personal interpretation of a scripture. he is not off base with his view at all because I can totally see what IM means. sorry you would rather argue about it than see it as something innocent.

correct me if Im wrong IM.
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:42 PM   #45
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Thank you Kanibaal, at least someone can understand a SIMPLE scripture.

Hmmm, Bumble, my history books say it took Pearl Harbor for that stupid Democrat to get off his ASS and start to do something. But by then, Hitler was marching all over Europe. If Roosevelt had 1/10th the big brass ones that GW Bush has, Hitler would have been pushed back out of Poland in a month. Instead, his pacifist ideas got us 4 years of WWII.

DEMOCRACY ONLY works when ALL sides agree to it (there are many times more than 2 sides). When one side says, "My way or the highway", the US will be glad to show them the "Highway to Hell"!!! Saddam was a murderous prick and we said enough is enough. Too bad we didn't do that to Hitler before 6,000,000 Jews, Gypsy's, Gays, etc... were aborted, err, I mean, murdered.

Yes, you Libs are pacifist's and believe that everyone in the world wants to get along in harmony. Sorry to bust your bubble, but "Dorothy, you ain't in Kansas any more", welcome to REALITY. There are lots of people in the world who want to murder or enslave certain races, classes, religions, etc.... World Peace is like Warp Speed, it ain't possible!!!!
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:12 PM   #46
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Please re-read your WWII history IM. Your ignorance of the topic is showing through like a fat woman's panty-lines.

And I'm a little nauseous that you would ever favorably compare GWB to FDR. I wonder how much you know about Roosevelt?
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Old 04-26-2004, 01:31 PM   #47
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Sorry to correct you...but Jimmy Carter was not a WW2 vet...he did serve in the Navy...as a junior officer in the Submarine force...the Nuclear submarine force...well after WW2.
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Old 04-26-2004, 02:26 PM   #48
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I was an Army brat, my father is West Point and I would have no
problem serving. I can not serve in the military because I am too old.
This is classic. When I said I was to old you lambasted me for not joining
at a younger age. Do you change standards when you see fit?, yes you do.
Unlike you, I support our troops with patriotic honor and in my prayers.
Bumble=miniKerry?

Are You lying again Bumble? We wouldn't want to catch you stepping on your own toes in the future.



About Tillman,
God bless his bravery and patriotism along with everyone who has
served our brave nation and suffered the ultimate sacrifice.
*Salute*



God Bless America
God Bless our Brave Troops
God Bless the resolve of President Bush
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Old 04-26-2004, 02:46 PM   #49
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There were more officers than usual on the ships of Pearl Harbor. Obiviously there was something being strategized, Japan just got the hit in first.

***History professor said that not me

He also thinks a way to end the Iraq conflict is by shutting down the Iraqis water. They can bring their weapons and lay them down to get a drink and then they can talk.
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Old 04-26-2004, 05:07 PM   #50
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The alternatives are, "Hitler", "Pol Pot", "Saddam Hussein", etc.. Also, vulnerability, slavery, bondage, etc....
Sorry, but those aren't alternatives to war. They are alternatives to vigilance and foriegn policy as a whole, but I wonder if you truly believe that every war the U.S. fights is always a titanic struggle between good and evil...
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