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Old 04-22-2004, 06:15 AM   #1
coreyoli
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Default Something to Think About...

Facts

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January..... in the fair city of Detroit (Michigan) there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's one American city folks, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq!

Worst president in history?

The following appeared in the Durham, NC local paper as a letter to the editor. Liberals claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war. They complain about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the worst president in U.S. history. Let's clear up one point: We didn't start the war on terror. Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11.

Let's look at the "worst" president and mismanagement claims.

FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of
18,333 per year.

John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

I think history might show Eisenhower committed the troops and Kennedy was honoring that commitment.

Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.

Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack at home. Worst president in history?

Come on!

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but... It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!

PASS IT ON!
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:38 AM   #2
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At least try to be original
, muppet.
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:39 AM   #3
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There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January..... in the fair city of Detroit (Michigan) there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's one American city folks, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq!
I read this and couldn't quite work out which side you're on. Either way you're not making your point very well.

35 people killed in Iraq at a time in which the war is supposed to be over is a bad thing. 35 killings in Detroit in one month is a very bad thing.
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:42 AM   #4
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Except of course that Iraq has NOTHING to do with the 9/11 attacks.
All arguments deriving from 9/11 dont apply. Bush was NOT forced
to attack Iraq. He simply wanted to distract us from the REAL enemies
which so far go unpunished.
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:44 AM   #5
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At least try to be original, muppet.
My apologies, I don't read this board that much anymore, to have noticed... In fact, comments like that pretty much explain why I don't, lol... I have got to find a more mature place to have mature political debates, not this R&F bullshit that is spewed here on an hourly basis...
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:50 AM   #6
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Those 39 lives killed in combat have changed 39 lives. Mother/father stressed all the time their child was there in Iraq just to find out later he died. Maybe some woman now is going to struggle for a while as a single mother with 3 kids. It isn't Starcraft were you can just shit out marines and firebats and have them die by hundreds, each life is something valuable.

No life is expendable.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:01 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by coreyoli
I have got to find a more mature place to have mature political debates
You're not going to get mature debate by passing someone elses article off as your own, especially one with as many obvious factual errors as that.

re. the 39 deaths; I think he was pointing out that you can expect to lose a few people in a warzone. Having the same number of deaths in everyday life in what is meant to be an advanced society is a very damning inditement.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by coreyoli
Facts

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January..... in the fair city of Detroit (Michigan) there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's one American city folks, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq!
Comparing combat related killings and murders is like comparing apple and orange. I dont want to look for the numbers, but to this 39 killings, you should add innocent Iraquis an foreigners killed by terrorism, those dead of starving or disease and all the suicide that no one talk about, both in Iraquis and coalition side.

Speaking about terrorsim, it was non-existant in Irak before the invasion. I know Saddam is a mad man, but if you would just let your patriotism on the side and listen to Iraquis, you would see that more and more of them are saying they were treated better under Saddam.

Patriotism and conviction are 2 good feelings when they dont blind you. Stop being so self centered about you and your country and look what other people are enduring.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:12 AM   #9
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You're not going to get mature debate by passing someone elses article off as your own, especially one with as many obvious factual errors as that.
I wasn't trying to pass it off as my own... I was simply posting it here... The only credit I take is for re-formatting it after the copy and paste butchered it...

I was hoping to strike up some debate here, but, as usual, it turned into flame bait...

Be well...
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:16 AM   #10
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Imagine that Detroit has a lottery. Now imagine there are 20 more Detroits in the US. They each have their own lotteries. Each lottery has 35 winners per month. Now imagine that you are going to take people from each of the 20 Detroits and make a new Detroit. This new Detroit will have its lottery as well.
With the previous Detroits you had 700 winners per month.
With the additional Detroit you now have 735 winners per month. You have increased the amount of winners by 35. These winners were not necessary but have been created electively.

Basically this rationale is a terrible rationale for justifying war. WWI could have been justified because we had more people die of the 1918 influenza than died in that war. What you fail to admit is that each of those deaths in war is one death more than is necessary if there weren't a war. Justifying war based upon numbers or lack thereof has nothing to do with the rationale for war. Wars are right or wrong based upon their ideology, not by the number of deaths, lack thereof, or the manner of atrocities.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:29 AM   #11
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Debate what Coreyoli? The merits of yet another in a long stream of cute, overly simplified Republican internet posts? Inmountains has also posted a few things similar to this: forwarded posts that state a few indisputable facts- twists them- and attempts to coerce the reader into making gross assumptions in order to tie those facts to the viewpoint of the poster.

Let us count the ways your forward article is garbage.
1) Iraq never attacked us either, nor did Afghanistan. Funny that isn't mentioned. They (Iraq) attacked our ally Kuwait in the 90s and we responded. They attacked who this time? That's right- noone.
2) North Korea attacked our ally and we responded.
3) Your article never mentions Nixon during the Vietnam points. Funny thing that- 3 presidents presided during the Vietnam conflict, one was a Republican, and yet he bears no mention? Curious omission no?
4) Funny that in your discussion about Bush being the worst president ever you make no mention of his impressive conversion of a budget surplus into a massive deficit for which he has no real plan to get us out of. Oh wait, I'm sorry, you guys don't like to talk domestic economics. All those negative points really get you down

And this is just for starters.

Face it- you posted a puff-piece grass-roots propaganda item. What else would you expect but flamage?
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:32 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Bumbleroot
Wars are right or wrong based upon their ideology, not by the number of deaths, lack thereof, or the manner of atrocities
Wrong Bumbleroot....Wars are right or wrong based upon an individuals idealogy. What you think or what I think doesn't make a war right or wrong. It's our opinion.

Personally I am outraged more by an average of 17,000 people killed in the US a year from DUI than I am from the deaths in a war zone. Then again, thats my opinion.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:34 AM   #13
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When dealing with people that believe that they having nothing to lose.....
Other rules apply.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Oh wait, I'm sorry, you guys don't like to talk domestic economics. All those negative points really get you down
Yep it's true Hormadrune. I could give two craps about domestic economics at the moment. National Security is top priority for me right now. You won't get an argument out of me on that one.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Caelie
I could give two craps about domestic economics at the moment.
You sound just like your buddy GWB!!

And for the record, domestic economics that you and your simian leader blow off so frequently, are impacting our lives far more than the operations in Iraq ever will. Unless you actually believe that Iraq was ever going to launch a military offensive on US soil- in which case I beg of you to seek help.
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:31 AM   #16
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Yep it's true Hormadrune. I could give two craps about domestic economics at the moment.
Lets fight for a country that doesn't want us to fight for them no matter how much ours is going to shit in the meantime
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:43 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Kerryn
Lets fight for a country that doesn't want us to fight for them no matter how much ours is going to shit in the meantime
Thats the opinion from the media and the left Kerryn. It doesn't fly with the conservatives.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
And for the record, domestic economics that you and your simian leader blow off so frequently, are impacting our lives far more than the operations in Iraq ever will.
Yeah, you're right. It would be nice if gas were a little cheaper, but other than that little issue domestic economics isn't impacting my life very much at all.
Originally Posted by Hormadrune
You sound just like your buddy GWB!!
Thank you. I take that as a compliment.
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:47 AM   #18
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It would be nice if gas were a little cheaper
Can't see that changing for a while, the US administration is purposefully helping to keep gas prices artificially high
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Kerryn
35 people killed in Iraq at a time in which the war is supposed to be over is a bad thing.
Actually this is not correct, from a strategic standpoint. For an occupation force, of this size, dealing with guerilla insurgency tactics in a MOUT environment...35 KIA is an acceptable number. The key word is acceptable...notice I did not say desirable.

Far as Im concerned, the ROE are too strict already. Safeguard my soldiers, take care of business, and bring us home...mission accomplished.

Its the media/politicians who blows it up into a huge deal, enflaming the public.

BTW...the 3rd ID did kick some serious ass...much body count. HUA!

/salute
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:59 AM   #20
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The whole argument that the economy in the US is weak is a sham. The economy is strong, job markets are strong, and unemployment is on the fall. Of course Chiteng will disagree because Bush didn't come to his door and create a job just for his wife who wouldn't get out and look for one, so he declares the economy to be weak and it's all Bush's fault. Nice job there Mr. Army-of-One.

The reason there is not more focus on the peril of the American economy is because there currently is NO peril of the American economy. Don't believe everything the liberal press shoves up your ass..especially you guys overseas..if you were here to see it first hand you would realize what a sham and scare tactic it really was.
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:02 AM   #21
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Personally I am outraged more by an average of 17,000 people killed in the US a year from DUI than I am from the deaths in a war zone. Then again, thats my opinion.
Deaths are not about numbers. Tell that to each and every family that lost a loved one unnecessarily. Each DUI victim is precious. Each soldier's life is precious. These deaths are irreversible.
The quantity of deaths is not a factor in nor should it be in any decision, unless the quantity were to be zero like Kosovo. The object of a war is to win the war, not to keep fighting.
For some reason you tend to be expressing that one type of death is more damaging because it has more numbers dead from it. These deaths are all unnecessary. If you are incensed by one type of death, how can you be less incensed by another type of death unless you view deaths as statistics only?

That is exactly why I think the original post makes no sense. All wars have deaths paling in comparison to other types of death. That doesn't mean anything though. These deaths are unnecessary and should be avoided at all costs. War is and only should ever be a last resort.
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trith
job markets are strong, and unemployment is on the fall.
Utter rubbish.

Today it was announced a further 353,000 lost their jobs last week (the previous week it was 362,000 and the week before it was ~320,000). Continuing claims rose to 3.019 million from 2.967 million last week. Unemployment is NOT falling.

Justify or retract your statement.
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:08 AM   #23
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Because when a soldier signs on the dotted line with a branch of the military service it is made quite clear to them they may die in conflict. That becomes their duty and if told to do so by a commanding officer a soldier is REQUIRED to die for their country. A war cannot be fought without death.

I am not required to die to drive. If people would be more careful and considerate of their alcoholism, no one would ever die from a DUI.

Huge difference you are trying to make apples into oranges and it won't work.
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Trith
Because when a soldier signs on the dotted line with a branch of the military service it is made quite clear to them they may die in conflict. That becomes their duty and if told to do so by a commanding officer a soldier is REQUIRED to die for their country. A war cannot be fought without death.
Actually it doesnt sink in until you start seeing the bodies burning on the side of the road. There is a huge difference between the academic (discussing/signing) and the smell of dead flesh. Definately brings everything into focus for you.
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:27 AM   #25
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Justify or retract your statement.
I would be more than happy to shit on your parade..here ya go.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...22/93309.shtml

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo...o&dist=myyahoo


(correct me if I'm wrong..but doesn't "fall" mean to do down..?)

Got any other left wing wacko scare theories you need shot down today?
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