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Old 04-17-2004, 05:01 PM   #1
Alauradana
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Default Hmmm....WMDs coming out of Syria, what a surprise!!

Jordan seizes explosives in cars


Security has been tightened at key sites in the capital Amman
The authorities in Jordan say they have seized cars filled with explosives and weapons, and arrested several suspects.
Jordanian TV carried an official statement saying that the discovery had averted terrorist attacks.

It gave no further details but earlier reports said Jordanian security forces had been searching for more than a week for car bombs.

The search was prompted by the arrest of suspected members of a cell thought to be linked to al-Qaeda.

Jordanian Television, quoting an unnamed security source, carried a vaguely worded statement saying the authorities were able to "foil the subversive and terrorist attempts which targeted the security and safety of the country".

"Several suspects have been arrested," the statement added.

The government said earlier this month that several terror suspects were arrested on the border with Syria after their car was found with explosives and detonators.

Three others got away and Syrian television ran their pictures appealing for any information on them.

A senior security source told Reuters news agency that those most recently arrested planned to attack American interests in Jordan, a key US ally.

"There is no doubt in our minds they are linked with al-Qaeda," he said.

Security has been tightened at public offices and western embassies around the capital Amman in the last two weeks.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3617015.stm

Now I really have no doubt where those WMDs went.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:13 PM   #2
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I didn't see anything listing IRAQ or WMDs in that post. Explosives are not WMDs. They can be weapons but so are guns.
Al Qaeda is not from Iraq, they are international.
Perhaps instead of pretending what you want to pretend you ought to make sure you post something that says what you are meaning to say.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:16 PM   #3
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I don't think "explosives and detonators" were the WMD that were said to exist in Iraq. You're seeing what you want to see; 'explosives' is a pretty loose term - a large amount of fertilizer explosive was found in the UK recently; I doubt that came from Iraq.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:53 PM   #4
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Before anyone gets too crazy with this thread let me throw out some information and ideas that may very well complicate things for both sides enough that the usual unfounded assertions and straw man arguments won't be so easy.

OK lets cover the bases here with what we know so far.

Bush doesn't want to go to war with Iraq necessarily but wants to look at it just in case things get boring. Cheney starts spouting off in speeches that we are certain Iraq has WMDs and we must attack them. Bush follows along and we get the war. All insist that there are WMDs of known quantities and types, and are stored in locations that we have satellite photographs of.

Well after we get the war, none of the WMDs mentioned previously are found. Immediately the PR damage control teams go wide open to come up with reasons why these weren't found; the prevalent theory is that they were trucked across the border to Syria in the months prior to the war.

Now we DO know that Saddam had WMDs during the Iran/Iraq war and a subsequent quelling of a Kurdish uprising in Northern Iraq. This WMD was specifically poison gas and he used the same kind in both situations. If someone could find what kind of gas this was and it's origin (I believe it was of U.S. origin) it would be greatly appreciated. I am skeptical that he had enough of this gas to do any significant damage to more than a small geographic area.

What we DID find in Iraq were *massive* caches of small arms. It's estimated that Saddam had collected nearly 650,000 tons of both arms and ammunition. There are so many guns and RPGs floating around in Iraq that when you buy a $15 AK-47 you get all the ammo you can carry for free. Stinger missile systems and their Soviet counterparts that used to sell for $150,000 are now selling for around $5,000.

Here's an Op-Ed piece on the problem with small arms and our program for removing them in Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1105/p09s02-coop.html

And another article in USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...rms-iraq_x.htm

The following is a hypothetical situation based on knowledge of the above:

Now lets say for a moment that Saddam DID have some WMDs left over after the Iran/Iraq war, namely the poison gas he used on the Iranian troops and Kurds in the 80's. He stores this stuff in one of those weapon caches mentioned above. The war happens and rather than moving those across the border to Syria (that would have risked him getting caught red handed with them since we were watching him like a hawk), they're left hidden. The Baathist government falls and the Iraqi army flees for the desert. Certain members of the Iraqi military know of these hidden and *very valuable* stores of gas and weapons and loots the cache for resale on the black market.

al Qaeda buys these materials on the black market for pennies on the dollar.

I just made that up, but it's just as plausible as the "Saddam had them trucked to Syria" theory.
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:03 PM   #5
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My bad meant to post both articles, this is the one concerning WMD--a bomb capable of killing 20,000 people is defined as a WMD.

Jordan 'was chemical bomb target'


Officials say materials for a chemical bomb have been found
Al-Qaeda-linked terrorists planned a chemical attack on Jordan's spy headquarters that could have killed 20,000 people, officials have said.
Earlier this week King Abdullah said a massive attack had been thwarted by a series of arrests, but named no target.

Now unnamed officials say the suspects have confessed to plotting to detonate a chemical bomb on the Amman HQ of the Intelligence Services.

The plot was reportedly hatched by al-Qaeda suspect Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi.

Washington has accused the 38-year-old Jordanian radical of masterminding a string of spectacular suicide bombings in Iraq.

'Deadly gas'

An official involved in the inquiry in Jordan told AFP news agency: "We found primary materials to make a chemical bomb which, if it had exploded, would have made nearly 20,000 deaths ... in an area of one square kilometre.

"The target of this bomb was the headquarters of the Intelligence Services," situated on a hill in the western suburb of Amman, he added.

The official said another operation planned by the network was to use "deadly gas against the US embassy and the prime minister's office in Amman ... and other public buildings in Jordan".

'Divine protection'

On Tuesday, in a letter thanking his intelligence chief for uncovering the plot, King Abdullah said Jordan had "lived through an extremely delicate situation in recent days".

"But divine protection has thwarted the plans of these criminals and saved the lives of thousands of civilians in what would have been a crime never before seen in the kingdom," he argued.

The intelligence chief General Saad Khair said the group used religion as a pretext for its actions, but their plans were anything but religious.

He thought that they wanted to attack Jordan's position on upholding Arab causes, especially Palestinian rights. He said mop-up operations were continuing.

Two weeks ago the authorities in Jordan said they had found cars carrying explosives by an underground group planning to attack US interests in the kingdom.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3635381.stm

I stand by my post. It has been suspected for quite sometime that WMDs were taken into Syria, and Al Queda have been found in Iraq. That is enough for me. We knew they were there, they were documented, they disappeared and I believe there is a good chance this is them.
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:16 PM   #6
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Another source:

Major terror attack thwarted: King Abdullah II

SAN FRANCISCO: Jordan’s King Abdullah II said in an interview published yesterday that Jordanian security services thwarted a major terrorist attack aimed at toppling his government.
Jordanian police seized five trucks loaded with 17.5 tonnes of high explosives, the king told the San Francisco Chronicle.
“It was a major, major operation,” Abdullah said. “It would have decapitated the government.”
Casualties would have been “in the thousands,” he added. “It couldn’t have been more sinister.”
King Abdullah is currently visiting California and spoke in San Francisco on Friday. He is scheduled to meet President George W. Bush in Washington on Wednesday.
The explosives were apparently intended for an attack on the Jordanian prime minister’s office and the intelligence ministry, King Abdullah said, adding that it was uncovered after two suspected terrorists were arrested two weeks ago.
King Abdullah said that, although the trucks came from Syria, he was “completely confident that (Syrian President) Bashir (Assad) did not know about it.”
The king told the Chronicle that European anti-terrorism experts were aiding the Jordanian police investigation, but gave few details.
Turning to Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda terror network, King Abdullah said it “has been very badly hurt, but ... that doesn’t mean it can’t hurt you, as we saw in Madrid.”
He referred to the terrorist attacks in Spain last month. “They’re still very, very effective.”
The king avoided any direct comments on Bush’s recent dramatic policy shift toward Israel, but did say that he had not been given any advance notice of the change.
“There were discussions beforehand with members of the administration, but what came out in Washington was different,” King Abdullah told the Chronicle. “We really are at a loss for information. ... Washington has taken us a bit by surprise.
“Honestly, we don’t know what the implications are,” he added.
Jordan said yesterday it wanted American guarantees on the final status of Palestinian occupied territories, four days ahead of a White House meeting between King Abdullah and Bush.
“The meeting will enable Jordan’s position to be reiterated on the Palestinian question and we want guarantees from the American administration on the final status,” Foreign Minister Marwan Moasher said.
“We have heard the American administration stress in the past, and again on Friday, that the final status must not be decided in advance but during negotiations,” said the minister, who heads for the United States today to join the king.
During a Washington Press conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bush said all questions linked to the final status must be negotiated between the parties. – AFP
http://www.bahraintribune.com/Articl...rticleId=28854
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:37 PM   #7
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No Codson, we DONT know that SH had WMD.
We know he used Mustard Gas on Kurds.
Mustard Gas is a weapon system that is now over 100 years old.
How to make it is no secret, any University lab in any country could do it easily.

The lumping of Mustard Gas, as an equal danger of say a One Meg
thermonuclear weapon, is the Bush admins greatest lie.
They are NOT an equivalent danger. In fact, Mustard Gas made a very poor weapon. That is why they stopped using it, in favor of more deadly
gasses,
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:54 PM   #8
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Here we go again, it is documented he had WMD. Your definition of WMD isn't what the rest of the world considers them to be, does not mean they didn't exist.
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Old 04-18-2004, 12:36 AM   #9
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This story is razer thin Alu, there are plenty of explosives around, which none of would be considered a WMD. Heck you get a fuel truck and ignite the gasoline inside and youll see an explosive. Thats no WMD tho. A Weapon of Mass Destruction is something like nerve gas a chemical agent or a nuclear weapon.
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Old 04-18-2004, 01:24 AM   #10
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Here we go again, it is documented he had WMD. Your definition of WMD isn't what the rest of the world considers them to be, does not mean they didn't exist.
*******************************************************
No Ala, here YOU go again. Because you see, anyone with any intellectual
integrity, freely admits that Mustard Gas is NOT an equivalent threat to
a Nuke. It is people like YOU, who desperately desire to cover for this admin,
that try and make up spurious arguments and definitions. That doesnt interest me Ala, except that it does allow me to know that you are partisan
beyond belief.
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Old 04-18-2004, 05:59 AM   #11
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Here we go again, it is documented he had WMD. Your definition of WMD isn't what the rest of the world considers them to be, does not mean they didn't exist.
Alaura- we have WMD. That doesn't mean anything if Al Qaeda blows up a bomb. It has nothing to do with Saddam Hussein. Even the President said he doubted the connection with Al Qaeda and 9/11. For some reason you think every Muslim that has their ass uptight is being controlled by pro-Hussein forces. That is like saying Lyndon Larouche runs this country. He doesn't, he has a cult following but has no bearing on our country.
Whatever point you are trying to make is purely hopeful that there is a connection. There isn't.
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Old 04-18-2004, 07:29 AM   #12
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No Ala, here YOU go again. Because you see, anyone with any intellectual
integrity, freely admits that Mustard Gas is NOT an equivalent threat to
a Nuke.

So basically if a weapon isn't a nuke, it isn't a WMD????? That is what you imply with that thread. If a weapon can take out hundreds of people, it is a WMD. YOU refuse to see that, your problem, not mine.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:13 AM   #13
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Just for you Ala...

A Weapon of Mass Destruction is something like nerve gas a chemical agent or a nuclear weapon.


Chiteng, we know mustard gas isn't that potent. Saddam admited having much worse stuff then mustard gas.

As much as 1,000 tons of VX are unaccounted for, and Iraq has said it cannot account for as much as 2,245 gallons (8,500 liters) of anthrax.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...irq.vx.report/

1000 fucking tons of VX vanished. You remember the movie "The Rock" ?
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:20 AM   #14
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I'm telling you guys, the Iraqi military sold that stuff off on the black market.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:26 AM   #15
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Actually the VX they attempted to make was 40 tons not 1000.
Also they botched the process and ended up with 40 tons of VERY toxic
sludge.

Ala said 'we know' that SH 'used' WMD on the Kurds.

That is the battleground as defined by Ala. She could get OFF this kick
of presenting conjecture as absolute certainty.

Then 'I' will stop parsing weapon systems.

Digoxin is a VERY nasty substance. It never degrades and kils all life it
contaminates. Any chem student with a modicum of savvy can make it.

It never degrades and it takes an industrial furnace to destroy.

Right now, any house wife can easily make enough Chlorine to kill everyone
in the house.

If I wanted to, I could make enough Phosgene to poison a football stadium,
it would be EASY. It would not even be strictly speaking illegal, unless they could prove INTENT. Posion gas is with us. Live with it.

Knowledge IS power.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:31 AM   #16
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nope, truth is power. knowledge is what is collected on the road to finding out the truth. unfortunately you broke down in your driveway.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:49 AM   #17
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Do you want me to post exactly how to make these items?
If you insist that I am lying. Because, I am not. It is quite easy to do.
Ask any chem professor.
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Old 04-18-2004, 11:39 AM   #18
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Actually the VX they attempted to make was 40 tons not 1000.
Also they botched the process and ended up with 40 tons of VERY toxic
sludge.
Care to post your source?
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Old 04-18-2004, 03:18 PM   #19
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The officials, speaking to the AP on condition of anonymity, said the terrorist cell was planning to attack Jordan’s secret service — the General Intelligence Department — with a chemical bomb that would have killed as many as 20,000 people and caused large-scale destruction within a half-mile radius.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4771882/

I don't think that is a housewife playing with Chlorine. A bomb that big is a WMD.

---------------------------------------

Bumble, I said "Now I really have no doubt where those WMDs went." That is my opinion, they caught these guys at the Syria border. There was a lot of speculation where the WMDs went (yes a chemical bomb capable of killing 20,000 is a WMD) and if people like you, who cannot put the dots together were in the White House, 9/11 would be repeated on a regular basis. I understand that this country does not like Americans, they hold us responsible for everything that Israel does. Why do you find it so absurd that they would have helped Iraq? Do you honestly believe that they like us? That no other country in the world is plotting against the US? Good thing that Dubya doesn't have his head in the sand.

If you think that Syria likes America, go to some websites reporting the news in Syria. They don't like us, but of course under interrogation it is not as if they are going to stand up and admit that they helped Iraq, but they don't hide the fact that they disagree with the war on Iraq and that they supported Iraq.
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Old 04-18-2004, 05:45 PM   #20
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There was a lot of speculation where the WMDs went
And there is actual fact that they weren't there.

If you are basing your premises on speculation and I am basing mine on reports from Weapons inspectors, who is more accurate?
Also, who first raised the speculation that the WMD may have crossed into Syria? I may be wrong, but I believe it was someone in the Bush administration. What have they got to lose if there are no WMDs? Their jobs and their reputation and possibly the reputation of those that follow them and promote the same thoughts. That being said, they have a motive to feed you whatever speculation they want to. You choose to believe them solely and primarily because they belong to the political party you associate with. That right there is a poor reason to believe something.
Now getting back to Syria and WMDs. It is extremely unlikely that Saddam moved his WMDs over to Syria. He was not well-liked by the Syrians. What you are suggesting is that on the verge of a war with the mightiest military in the world, Saddam moved his most powerful weapons out of his country and into the hands of oa non-allied nation. That doesn't really seem to make much sense if you ask me.
Syria's relations with Iraq...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...q.us.timeline/
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Old 04-18-2004, 06:48 PM   #21
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Did you read the site you referenced? Hello? So between the Americans and the Iraqis you believe they side with us? Do yourself a favor, do a search on Syrian news. Read some of their commentaries about the poor Arabs in Iraq under American occupation. They wouldn't sympathize if they didn't feel for them. Your own reference states they were dealing with Iraq and they didn't support the war in Iraq. I said I believe, I am of the opinion, that this is where the WMDs may have ended up. Like I said, your inability to recognize that not everyone loves Americans is ridiculous. You don't believe they would have helped the Iraqis because you think they are our friends? They blame the US for the recent assasinations of Hamas leaders. Yeah, really our friends.
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Old 04-18-2004, 06:57 PM   #22
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Senior Syrian journalist reports Iraq’s WMD located in three Syrian sites

Via the DEBKA file website.




Nizar Najoef, a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe, reports in the Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf” that Iraq’s WMD are located in three Syrian sites


* * *

Nizar Najoef, a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, said in a letter Monday, January 5, to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf,” that he knows the three sites where Iraq’s WMD are kept. The storage places are:

1. Tunnels dug under the town of al-Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria. These tunnels are an integral part of an underground factory, built by the North Koreans, for producing Syrian Scud missiles. Iraqi chemical weapons and long-range missiles are stored in these tunnels.

2. The village of Tal Snan, north of the town of Salamija, where there is a big Syrian airforce camp. Vital parts of Iraq’s WMD are stored there.

3. The city of Sjinsjar on the Syrian border with the Lebanon, south of the city Homs.

Najoef writes that the transfer of Iraqi WMD to Syria was organized by the commanders of Saddam Hussein’s Special Republican Guard, including General Shalish, with the help of Assif Shoakat , Bashar Assad’s cousin. Shoakat is the CEO of Bhaha, an import/export company owned by the Assad family.

In February 2003, a month before America’s invasion in Iraq, DEBKAfile and DEBKA-Net-Weekly were the only media to report the movement of Iraqi WMD, the efforts to bring them from Iraq to Syria, and the personal involvement of Bashar Assad and his family in the operation.

Najoef, who has won prizes for journalistic integrity, says he wrote his letter because he has terminal cancer.

http://nikita_demosthenes.blogspot.c...30608534193 6


This is where the WMDs being moved to Syria was first brought up. If you notice, it is brought up by a Syrian journalist, not President Bush. Your ignorant rants trying to blame Bush for everything are pathetic. I feel sorry for you being so blinded by hate.
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Old 04-18-2004, 07:16 PM   #23
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I think you got it wrong Alaura-
Donald Rumsfeld said they were North, East, South and West of Baghdad. He siad we knew exactly where they were.
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:02 PM   #24
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The sheets that they gave the UN when they were stalling for time
listed the VX at 40 tons
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:43 PM   #25
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Ok Bumble, you show me where President Bush said Syria had the WMDs before this guy said it. I just showed you where that originated and you say I have it wrong, back it up if you know so much and have the proof. Funny how I can back up but you never do. Your post doesn't even make sense, you say I am wrong because Rumsfeld said that? I show you where Syria has been implicated in having WMDs, you say that Bush said that, I prove that Bush did not come up with that idea and you pull that line? It doesn't even make sense or pertain to the subject at hand.
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