Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-08-2004, 07:00 AM   #1
Kerryn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keren, Naboo
Posts: 1,030
Default Clarify something please.

I don't support a political party over here. Each day the news comes on and I listen to what is being said, how the prime minister is acting, etc and I make decisions based on his actions. I do the same for the other parties and when election time comes I listen to the policies that they have and then make my vote.

If there is a history that parties make the same decisions over and over again for example : Tories always advocate raising taxes to increase public spending but labour are always in favour or cutting taxes and budgeting harder... personally, ive not seen it.

What I'm saying is I don't understand the concept of supporting a party. I support the ideals of a party and not only do those ideals change from time to time but to follow them I frequently have to vote elsewhere.

I was vastly in favour of a labour government but having seen them in action I don't think we could do much worse in future so I'm voting conservative this time around. I don't like them too much either but I think Blair has been disastrous for the country. I see that many of you seem to support one party and believe that the other parties are idiots, etc and a few of you even go so far as to disagree with what a party has done yet still support them.

It's alien to me, so without flames, can you explain to me why you support who you do?

I understand that some people regard their vote as private but I'm assuming they will not reply.
Kerryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 07:21 AM   #2
Felessan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,005
Hell...Im a republican.

Mostly because I identfy with the strong duty towards my country and its people. Im Pro-Military, obviously , Im Pro-Capital Punishment, I believe in a hard stance on crime, I believe in supporting the 2nd Amendment...mostly traditional Republican values.

On the flip side; I believe in a womans right to choose, I am not into the Gov't getting into my business, Im for judicial use of taxes...not taxes for taxes sake. Im not one who screams "CUT TAXES!" I know they fulfill a role, and Im willing to pay my share. Im not real big on the whole "Religious Right". I think that is just rediculous. I hate people foisting their opinions on me.

I dont begrudge anyone their opinion. After all...it is their opinion. If they don't agree with me...same thing. I think some folks just spend too much damned time worrying what others think and how they can possibly stick their nose in where it is not wanted.

I guess, like anywhere else....folks just have to make a choice. Be an individual or follow others. In this case there only so many choices. You can support on or the other...or neither.
__________________
Felessan Oakhallow
Ginsu Stalker of Anlah 'Shok
Retired

"The things we do in life, echo in eternity!"

Last edited by Felessan; 04-08-2004 at 07:29 AM.
Felessan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 07:24 AM   #3
kanibaal
korpse
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 796
In the USA the Democrats are the ones who support raising taxes to give to the poor, so they can keep being lazy and not have to work. They want everyone to be treated as middle class no matter how much or little they work.

The Republicans are the assholes with NRA stickers on their SUVs burning up all the fossil fuels. They give tax cuts to the rich, so they can make it easier to move their companies to mexico/china.

Hope that clears it up for you on why we have to chose sides here in the good ol USofA.
kanibaal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 07:43 AM   #4
Kerryn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keren, Naboo
Posts: 1,030
But are you saying that every election the same fundamental tenets apply for each party.

i.e The Democrats are always in favour of raising taxes to give to the unemployed? and that the Republicans are always in favour of burning fossil fuels?

I'm in favour of giving the unemployed a basic living allowance but I do agree it has to stop somewhere. Many peopel find that for working 40 hours a week they'll only be 10-20 better off etc.

But that doesn't mean I have to choose a side and stick with it.
Kerryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 07:55 AM   #5
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
There are basically two camps here in the US. Dem and Republicans. The Dems are liberals and the Republicans are conservatives.

The basic premise of the two parties are this

Democrat: Mankind is incapable of taking care of itself. It should be the responsibility of government to mandate, control, and micromanage the life of the individual through large government programs. All people are not created equal so wealth and property should be taken away from some to give to others to create a social equillibrium. Moral, and morality have no place in society. Man is free to do whatever he/she chooses, even if it leads in some cases to self-destruction of the individual, or harm to those around them. The constitution is a living document, that can be altered, reinterpreted, or ignored given a certain situation. The founding fathers had no idea what they were doing, or if they did, their ideas have become outdated therefore sections of the constitution can be considered invalid. Small to no military, and a very passive attitude towards self defense..if any at all.

Republican: Personal responsibility is primary. Man can and should provide for himself, unless physically unable to do so. All men are created equal..quota systems and preferences are not necessary. Government interferance in the day to day lives of man must be limited. All people should contribute to society only what is fair for their incomes. The Constitution is not a piece of clay to be altered to make people feel better. The founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote it..there is no room for personal interpretation. Morals and morality are a must for any type of social structure and to prevent anarchy. Man cannot be allowed to self destruct, and just because something may "feel good" doesn't mean it's acceptable if it hurts or impacts the lives of those around you. Strong military..the primary job of government is to provide self defense, and military threats will be met head on to save American lives.


that's about it... that's the main points of the two American parties...

It's very hard to be inbetween the two..you pretty much have to pick one or the other..and it usually depends on income..education level, and race as the major factors as to which party you will wind up affiliated with.

Last edited by Trith; 04-08-2004 at 08:09 AM.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:03 AM   #6
Sakkath
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,026
Trith, I think it's obvious what viewpoint those descriptions came from, and demonstrates just how polarised you are.

I find the notion of 'belonging' to a political party rather ridiculous. People can only be worse off under such partisan systems, it's like some kind of primitive tribal warfare.

Much more progress could be made if people actually listened to different viewpoints, and employed their grey matter rather than blindly following the party line like they're supporting some football team.

and it usually depends on income..educatione level
/chuckle
Sakkath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:08 AM   #7
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Sorry..my fingers are sometimes not in harmony with my eduction level lol. Tha's gonna happen when you try and work and rant at the same time.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:20 AM   #8
Kerryn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keren, Naboo
Posts: 1,030
Well, that still creates a problem for me.

Democrat: Mankind is incapable of taking care of itself. It should be the responsibility of government to mandate, control, and micromanage the life of the individual through large government programs. All people are not created equal so wealth and property should be taken away from some to give to others to create a social equillibrium. Moral, and morality have no place in society. Man is free to do whatever he/she chooses, even if it leads in some cases to self-destruction of the individual, or harm to those around them. The constitution is a living document, that can be altered, reinterpreted, or ignored given a certain situation. The founding fathers had no idea what they were doing, or if they did, their ideas have become outdated therefore sections of the constitution can be considered invalid. Small to no military, and a very passive attitude towards self defense..if any at all.

Republican: Personal responsibility is primary. Man can and should provide for himself, unless physically unable to do so. All men are created equal..quota systems and preferences are not necessary. Government interferance in the day to day lives of man must be limited. All people should contribute to society only what is fair for their incomes. The Constitution is not a piece of clay to be altered to make people feel better. The founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote it..there is no room for personal interpretation. Morals and morality are a must for any type of social structure and to prevent anarchy. Man cannot be allowed to self destruct, and just because something may "feel good" doesn't mean it's acceptable if it hurts or impacts the lives of those around you. Strong military
the primary job of government is to provide self defense, and military threats will be met head on to save American lives.

See, that's where it becomes alien to me because I'd be torn. Let me snip those parts out and juggle them a bit.

Personal responsibility is primary. Man can and should provide for himself, unless physically unable to do so and where this is not possible support should be provided. All people are not created equal so wealth and property should be taken away from some to give to others, not to create a social equillibrium but to remove each opposite end of the scale. All people should contribute to society only what is fair for their incomes. Whilst the founding fathers knew what they were doing at the time their ideals are outdated and nobody could have predicted how life would be so far one. The constitution represents ideals which should be used as guidelines rather then adhered to without thought. Morals and morality are a must for any type of social structure and to prevent anarchy. Man cannot be allowed to self destruct, and just because something may "feel good" doesn't mean it's acceptable if it hurts or impacts the lives of those around you. Strong military to prevent war used judicially.

Now obviously when I talk about founding fathers and constitution I have to apply them to the people who wrote our "law" if you will but as you can see I'm about 50/50 between the two.

I too find politics as situational but if what you are suggesting is right, and the primary edicts always apply I would understand why people support parties consistently. Still, despite that I think you could agree I'd have trouble picking a party to support.
Kerryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:20 AM   #9
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
I was vastly in favour of a labour government but having seen them in action I don't think we could do much worse in future so I'm voting conservative this time around
In essence the party that has the keys to the cupboard is going to spend as much as they can while they can so they can get their agendas passed. Republicans offer lip service as if they are fiscal conservatives but that has been proven untrue as Republicans have shown they create larger deficits than Democrats. The truest form of balance is exactly that- balance.

And Trith- your SPIN on what the parties stand for is absolute bullshit. Why don't you do something a little more realistic instead of spinning and post the party platforms.
Democrats-
http://www.democrats.org/about/2000platform.html
Republicans-
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/con...s/platform.00/

Each party panders to its constituents. Republicans give handouts to people with money, Democrats give it out to people without money. Both parties stress responsibility, the Democrats are more compassionate the Republicans are more structural. In other words- Republicans believe in institutions, Democrats believe in people.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:22 AM   #10
Kerryn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keren, Naboo
Posts: 1,030
Woah woah....I don't want this to degenerate into a fucking war between you guys. I just want to understand why people follow one particular party.
Kerryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:25 AM   #11
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Republicans believe in institutions, Democrats believe in people.
Not true..Democrat is the party of institutionalized large government. Republicans want institutions of government removed to make life easier on the individual. Beauracracy has existed for centuries..but the Dems perfected it. Just look at the thousands of micro-management special interest departments and services that were created under the Clinton Admin. Most of these were just for the purpose of giving someone's brothers cousins former roomate a job..but still it was rediculous.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:31 AM   #12
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
Trith- Beauracracy resides in the Republicans as well if not more.
It is true that Republicans believe in institutions more than Democrats- hence their "God, flag and family" mantra. Dems believe in each person. The Republicans have tried to adopt this approach as it beat the hell out of them for a good 50-60 years in elections. Because of this there is some mixing of the parties, however its small.
Basically we have one-third of all voters being Democrat or Republican or Independent over here in America. The partisanship is at a fever pitch in America as we are more polarized than ever before.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:32 AM   #13
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Woah woah....I don't want this to degenerate into a fucking war between you guys. I just want to understand why people follow one particular party.
Now you understand..which was my point exactly. We are absolutely passionate about our political ideals here. And regardless of party affiliation, we will defend and pursue those ideals because for America your political affiliation is one of the defining factors of your character. It's almost like a part of your DNA..because to each of us..myself or for example Bumble..we know we are both right, and to be in the opposite party is to simply be wrong. It's like being born a man or a woman..you don't have a choice with it..and you are stuck with it. That may seem like an odd way to view politics but that's kinda the way we do it over here. We get overly passionate about them simply because we are so involved in our own political system.

Plus..some of our moral choices define us as well. Abortion, Capital punishment, self defense..etc etc etc...choosing one way will tend to camp you with a certain party.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:43 AM   #14
Kerryn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keren, Naboo
Posts: 1,030
"Now you understand.."

No I don't. I understand that you are passionate about which party you support but I don't understand why you support the party.

I support the ideals behind the party and I accept that the ideals of each party may change frequently and that I do not have to follow.

Sakkath I think nailed it for me. I get the feeling it's like supporting a football team.
Kerryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:45 AM   #15
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
Yes, but it's kinda lika a mandatory football game. You really can't ignore it or turn the channel. You have to watch it, and you have to root for a team..
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:47 AM   #16
Sakkath
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,026
The problem with that Trith, is that situation leans to political stagnation and apathy amongst the general populace.

There is rarely a right and a wrong; simply there are different approaches to solving the same problem which will be better or worse from different perspectives. It's important to recognise and learn from mistakes, just as it's important to take on board good ideas from those with whom you wouldn't normally agree.

I defy any republican to say that their party has never made a mistake, where the democrats had a better approach to solving a problem. Likewise the other way around. Actually, I think the problem is that the parties are so similar, that they fight tooth and nail to establish clear blue water between them; even when there is none.
Sakkath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:49 AM   #17
Valleycrest
Defrocked Irish priest
 
Valleycrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 659
Woah woah....I don't want this to degenerate into a fucking war between you guys. I just want to understand why people follow one particular party.
C'mon, this was bound to happen.

Kerryn, I'm going to try to give you the most unbiased definition I possibly can. First of all, it's important to mention that the platforms of political parties in the US have shifted, granted over a long period of time, but have shifted nonetheless. The two parties existed 100 years ago, but they believed in very different things when it came to fiscal and social policy. The shifts in platforms arose with the formation of several third parties throughout this 100 years who brought new ideas about social and political development. The existing parties noted how these ideas affected the people and incorporated them in their platforms. The truth is that most people are moderates falling somewhere in between the two parties. I also think the truth of how someone determines their own political party lies with what party their parents belonged to. This won't apply in every case, but it happens far too often. After considering all of this, someone might choose their party based on their geographic location, or their current representative, or some political figure they identify with.

Both parties are deliberately vague about their platforms as not to obviously not offend anyone. But ultimately, one might choose their affiliation based on which party's platform they agree with more.

**edited for grammatical mistakes (I know there are sevral more, but I didn't want to correct them)
Valleycrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:55 AM   #18
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
I don't understand why you support the party.
On the whole, Republicans tend to support the party more often, Democrats break from the party more often.
Quite frankly Trith is right though. I know the Republican party has tailored its message to fit its constituents firmly. The Democrats have had a problem doing that because their constituents tend to be different in basic premises and they tend to be less classifiable.
For example- the Dems consist of Environmentalists, minorities, gays, union members, women's rights groups and many other factionalized groups. Environmentalists may not be moved by the same causes that Union members are moved by. The Democrats try to tailor their message for each of these groups and get support from the people that are passionate about each of these areas.
On the other hand, the Republicans generally get White, middle to upper class, conservative Americans and they tend to have similar ideals across the board.

But to answer your question as best as I can, belonging to a party is not necessary here. Its just that our party's are in such a battle that they try to appease their main core believers as strongly as they can.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 08:58 AM   #19
Kerryn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keren, Naboo
Posts: 1,030
Yeah. I get the concept of "moderates" since it looks like that's where I'd fall. Being a moderate seems to be along the lines of following the ideals to the best of your ability.

Sometimes it's the lesser of two evils but I wont accept the idea that I have to stay a Conservative voter because I disagree with Labour now. Things change in 5 years ( how long a party is voted in over here )
Kerryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 09:11 AM   #20
Valleycrest
Defrocked Irish priest
 
Valleycrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 659
Sometimes it's the lesser of two evils but I wont accept the idea that I have to stay a Conservative voter because I disagree with Labour now. Things change in 5 years ( how long a party is voted in over here )
People cross party lines all the time. If they didn't, the Republicans wouldn't be able to elect anybody since there are far more Democrats than Republicans.
Valleycrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 09:14 AM   #21
kanibaal
korpse
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 796
Great thread idea Kerryn, seriously. But it will definately turn into a flame fest. Just get some popcorn out and watch.
kanibaal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 09:20 AM   #22
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
At the end of the day it really doesnt matter. I do what I do here for 50% entertainment and 50% driving political ideals. I get mad..I win a few and I get owned occasionally too. Would I sit down and have beers with someone like Bumble? Sure. Would be fun. I don't harbor anyone any personal ill will regardless of what they believe. Only real way to get me mad is to get into my wallet, or interfere with what I want to teach my child..both of which are concerns for me politically.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 09:22 AM   #23
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
People cross party lines all the time. If they didn't, the Republicans wouldn't be able to elect anybody since there are far more Democrats than Republicans.
That's not true anymore. Last census put both parties in the low to mid 40 percentile range if I remember correctly. That is of course reflective of those who chose to include their affliation in the census. I need to look that up and see if I can link it.
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 09:56 AM   #24
AresProphet
Priest of Hiroshima
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,932
Send a message via MSN to AresProphet
Hmm, this thread has been remarkably civil. I expected it to get to baseless flaming off the bat, and though Trith really is doing just that, at least he's not using profanity.

I'll put up what I've essentially distilled.

The general premise behind the Republican party is based on three ideals: the self, the nation, and God. Out of everyone living in the nation, the only person that matters is Numero Uno - yourself. Greed (in the capitalist sense) is good. You should do whatever you can to ensure that you gain the most. This does mean give and take where you end up on top, but unfettered free market economics is the perfect system. By "the nation" I mean a sense of duty. Military should be the primary focus of federal government, letting the citizens (i.e. the states) figure out everything else. This leans almost more Libertarian, but since Trith is essentially one, it works for his purposes . Everyone should revere the U.S. as an entity second only to one: God. Religion should govern our actions, with our minds always on "What Would God Think", so to speak. Enforcement of Christian ideals is ideal, with an adherence to traditional values in every aspect of life, above and beyond anything, since God is, after all, superior to everything else.

I believe that any hardline supporter of the Republican party would essentially agree with the above. As for the Democratic party? It's hard to define them as a single entity. Bumbleroot mentioned the vast array of different factions who support the Democrats, some with totally opposite ideals (unioners and environmentalists are a great example). The one thing they do have in common is an interest in the everyday citizen. People should be protected from abuse, and personal freedom is paramount. To this end, capitalism must be regulated, and government on any level should refrain from legislating on a moral basis. Health and safety are important as well, as is preservation of the environment and conservation of resources. This is about as much as can be said about the Democratic party as a whole.

There are merits to each side, though it is obvious which I would go with on election day. The advocacy of personal responsibility by Republicans is something I firmly believe in, although almost no politician in history has adhered to it, nor are they likely to. To me it's one of the things the party claims as an ideal without actually doing, which can be said about the Democratic environmentalism as well: they only advocate it because it sounds nice. They are ideals to be spoken of loudly, but abandoned when inconvenient. After all, it's still politics.

While we're at it, let's go over my ideals.

The government should do whatever is in the best interest of it's constituents. Not just a majority that votes them in; with great power comes great responsibility, even over those who didn't necessarily put you in power. The government on every level has no right to tell you what you can and cannot do, but the most important ideal is this:

You are forbidden from nothing while it harms nobody around you.

The inverse isn't true, that you are forbidden from anything that does harm someone, but interpret it as the Hippocratic oath doctors take. The net result of one's actions should not be harmful. This applies to every aspect of an ideal government. It also leads to some rather extremist views.

Corporations have to be either dissolved or heavily regulated. They allow the creation of an entity that can be used to shift responsibility away from those who do harm. It never is the executives at fault, but some vague corporation, when people get laid off. Reform is necessary, in order to maintain any semblance of ethics in business.

Military strength is important, but more so is military strategy. Diplomacy first, resorting to decisive (read: large, brutal, and swift) use of force if and only if diplomacy fails.

Taxation is not only inevitable, it is necessary, for reasons any economics professor can tell you. Income taxation is also the only reliable method of doing so, but an exponential flat-tax with a cap at each end is far better than a bracketed system.

Political parties should not be allowed to take any money, whatsoever, from businesses. The government does not exist to make money for anyone, and "donations" are essentially bribes to get the government to make more money for those businesses.

You'll note I'm pretty much the polar opposite of a Libertarian, especially with that last bit, and on every issue.
__________________
One of the wonders of the world is going down
It's going down I know
It's one of the blunders of the world that no-one cares
No-one cares enough


Attachment 181
AresProphet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2004, 10:00 AM   #25
Trith
The lesser of two weevils
 
Trith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
Posts: 3,490
Send a message via MSN to Trith
I forgot to use profanity? Fuck...
Trith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:58 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.