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Old 04-07-2004, 05:56 AM   #1
crimsonedge
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Default How does Kerry explain this

How does John Kerry explain the conflict between his beliefs, being a Roman Catholic, while voting for and supporting Abortion ? Just curious how people can believe in him when he cant follow or support his own beliefs.
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:00 AM   #2
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He can't. He won't. He's the ultimate candidate..whatever you want him to stand for..that's what he says he will stand for. The only thing he has going for him in reality is that he has the rabid crackhead liberals of the Dem party eating jello out of his asscrack like a prison bitch because they are so dillusional right now they don't even understand he's unelectable.
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:03 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Trith
he has the rabid crackhead liberals of the Dem party eating jello out of his asscrack like a prison bitch
OMG, Brother...I about fell out of my chair.

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Old 04-07-2004, 06:21 AM   #4
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don't even understand he's unelectable
I thought the Senators were elected? I thought that the primaries were elections? I must be wrong.
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:29 AM   #5
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Kerry is a Massachusetts senator. Massachusetts is know for being an extremist leftwing state. Kerry will basically agree with whatever gets him elected. he has no real stand on anything except getting elected.
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:30 AM   #6
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/agree Chuk
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:16 AM   #7
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You obviously don't believe in free thought do you? Catholic souls are not owned by the Church. They have freedom to believe as they will. A Catholic does not base their entire faith on some 20th century papal edict. This whole post is not even worth it. I am Catholic and I know many other Catholics that are not sold on the Catholic stance on birth control and abortion amongst other things. I support neither but won't renounce my religion. That doesn't mean that people are leaving the church though or denouncing what they believe. This is a non-issue and you appear desperate.
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:28 AM   #8
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I am Catholic and I know many other Catholics that are not sold on the Catholic stance on birth control and abortion amongst other things. I support neither but won't renounce my religion. That doesn't mean that people are leaving the church though or denouncing what they believe
Then you are not a true catholic, you cant pick and choose what to believe from your religion. Either believe in all of it or none of it. I was raised strict catholic then when i grew up i decided i didnt want a 2000 year old book dictating how i live my life and i renounced my religion. Kerry is so full of shit when he says hes a catholic. Hes whatever you want him to be as long as you pull the lever with his name on it in november.
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
You obviously don't believe in free thought do you? Catholic souls are not owned by the Church. They have freedom to believe as they will. A Catholic does not base their entire faith on some 20th century papal edict. This whole post is not even worth it. I am Catholic and I know many other Catholics that are not sold on the Catholic stance on birth control and abortion amongst other things. I support neither but won't renounce my religion. That doesn't mean that people are leaving the church though or denouncing what they believe. This is a non-issue and you appear desperate.

You are quite wrong Bumble, it is an issue because it shows he cant stand up for his faith, only for what brings votes. He is a loser that cant make a stand on any issue. The man has no convictions and it will cost him dearly. You know there are an estimated 60 million Catholics in the US, wonder if he expects them to follow his ideals and (non) leadership on issues like abortion Im thinking not.
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:47 AM   #10
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Then you are not a true catholic, you cant pick and choose what to believe from your religion. Either believe in all of it or none of it
WRONG Chucky boy! You don't have to believe in everything a church does to be a member of its beliefs. The church does not own you and Catholics also believe that one has to seek their own true beliefs.

The man has no convictions and it will cost him dearly.
Well that's funny because you contradict yourself. To begin with you say he does not believe what the church believes. That right there is conviction. I suppose you would rather him not form his own opinions and be given them by some higher body eh?
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:54 AM   #11
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Hmm, the Catholic Church pronounced Galileo as a heretic for his ideas about the universe. Just recently did they officially claim that they were wrong. Up to that point, in order for me to be a Catholic, I would have had to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe. Any other individual thought would have destroyed the entire faith for me. We're not the Borg collective you know.
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Old 04-07-2004, 12:21 PM   #12
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We're not the Borg collective you know
You are if your voter registration card says "Democrat".
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Old 04-07-2004, 12:22 PM   #13
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Trith, you ROCK!!! Kerry has the back bone of an earth worm!!!
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Old 04-07-2004, 01:18 PM   #14
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You are if your voter registration card says "Democrat".
My voter registration card says "Republican". I don't necessarily like Kerry, but the original argument was rather absurd. Actually I can't be Republican either if I'm Catholic because Republicans believe in the death penalty.
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Old 04-07-2004, 03:45 PM   #15
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Go Independant...it's the only way to fly.
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Old 04-07-2004, 04:50 PM   #16
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Ever notice one thing about the Democrats when they go to church,
"during election time, they "always" are shown in Black churches.

You'll never see the Dems in White churches during an election year.



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Old 04-07-2004, 06:20 PM   #17
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The original argument isnt absurd its dead on. Its not like you are trying to decide if you are going to have that piece of meat on friday or not, you are talking about a major issue that involves life and death. If you cant understand that then you need a reality check.
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:27 PM   #18
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Bumble;

It's pretty funny that you call out Chuk for lacking free thought when he is a independent, and you are not.

You are if your voter registration card says "Democrat".
Or Republican
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:50 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Trith
Go Independant...it's the only way to fly.
Independant carries the Red-flag of the socialists these days.
Are you sure? Do you know the history of Socialism?

Whats wrong with making a solid choice? (D) (R)? Is that so tough? Or,
do you choose, who your party tell's you too?

If you had to pee, would you change that to a shit in the middle of
standing up? You go Independant. Your a Liberal in disguise, a turd.




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Old 04-07-2004, 07:10 PM   #20
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Yeah Zol, but the great thing about being registered Independant is I don't get bugged with 5 zillion phone calls from pollsters, fundraisers, and crackheads at election time. I would have gone Libertarian..but I don't think I could keep myself from laughing while saying "I'm a Libertarian".../snicker.

Although this year I did donate money to the RNC...I will probably have to come out of hiding soon and go ahead and change my card status..but if I start getting swamped with calls I'm going to kick the RNC chairman's ass.

Love the party...hate the phone calls.
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Old 04-07-2004, 07:16 PM   #21
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Trith I am a registered Republican and I have never received a phone call. That's why I think polls are BS. I have never been polled in 25 years.

Well not politically polled. I did get a call the other night asking if I had bought a non american car, thought about buying a non american car in the last 5 years, or would I consider buying a non american car in the future.
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:36 PM   #22
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The church does not own you and Catholics also believe that one has to seek their own true beliefs.
Not sure what Catholic church you go to, but the Catholic church that I know has so many papal edicts (read: non-biblical) that are accepted as DOCTRINE that it astounds me. The Catholic church I know may encourage you to "seek your own beliefs" - as long as you understand the only true religion is CATHOLICISM! If they did not believe this, I have to ask why they sit there every week repeating the apostle's creed??

"I believe in the one true church"?

Dude, you are deluding yourself, sorry. Or maybe your church is totally different from any other Catholic church I ever stepped foot into.

Gotta say though -

I am sure that the Pope will tell Kerry and you that its A-OK to believe whatever you please, because the Catholic church is so full of free-thinkers. I am positive the Pope will say that after all, its all about what personally works for you.

Btw, I was raised Roman Catholic.

**edited because Kindness counts**
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:58 PM   #23
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To quote Ann Coulter, "If you not a democrat or republican by age 14, you have an IQ less than a toaster." I thought that was pretty funny.

John Kerry is trying to suck dick like Howard Dean did. Look where that got Dean. Also, I think that Ann Coulters quote should take the word "democrat" our because right now, they have to have an IQ less than a toaster for picking a crapper cocksucking candidate. Republicans know how to run the country, and democrats don't.

Btw do the other Christian religions have similar beliefs regarding the death penalty and abortion or is it just Catholics?
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:51 AM   #24
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I am sure that the Pope will tell Kerry and you that its A-OK to believe whatever you please, because the Catholic church is so full of free-thinkers. I am positive the Pope will say that after all, its all about what personally works for you.

Btw, I was raised Roman Catholic.
The Catholic church realizes that man has individual thought. The papal edicts NEVER make law those edicts. The edicts state that individual conscience guides those edicts. Therefore if your conscience becomes such that you can not agree with the edict, your conscience is your guide.
And as far as you converting to some fundamental belief (if you did)- who gives a shit- you obviously never followed Catholicism or you probably got hung up on something along the way- thats your choice- doesn't make you rigth or wrong nor does it make Catholicism right or wrong.

Btw do the other Christian religions have similar beliefs regarding the death penalty and abortion or is it just Catholics?
Many religions that respect the life of all people feel the same way.
Here is a good link for you
http://www.religioustolerance.org/execut7.htm
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Old 04-08-2004, 04:09 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by bumbleroot
The Catholic church realizes that man has individual thought. The papal edicts NEVER make law those edicts. The edicts state that individual conscience guides those edicts. Therefore if your conscience becomes such that you can not agree with the edict, your conscience is your guide.
And as far as you converting to some fundamental belief (if you did)- who gives a shit- you obviously never followed Catholicism or you probably got hung up on something along the way- thats your choice- doesn't make you rigth or wrong nor does it make Catholicism right or wrong.


Many religions that respect the life of all people feel the same way.
Here is a good link for you
http://www.religioustolerance.org/execut7.htm
Here is what the current Catholic "law" states.

Penal Law

The 1983 Code of Canon Law contains the following provision:

Title VI
OFFENSES AGAINST HUMAN LIFE AND FREEDOM

Can. 1397 -- One who commits homicide or who fraudulently or forcibly kidnaps, detains, mutilates or seriously wounds a person is to be punished with the deprivations and prohibitions mentioned in can. 1336 in accord with the seriousness of the offense; however, homicide against the persons mentioned in can. 1370 is punished by the penalties specified there.

Can. 1398 -- A person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.

[The Latin original reads: Can. 1398 -- Qui abortum procurat, effectu secuto, in excommunicationem latae sententiae incurrit.]

An excommunication is the heaviest spiritual sanction the Church can render. So long as it is in force, it bars the excommunicated person from the church community and from receiving most of the sacraments, as well as from all public associations affiliated with the Church. An automatic (or "latae sententiae") excommunication is an especially severe penalty. The nine or so latae sententiae excommunications in the Code are reserved for use against certain things the Church particularly wants to deter, like assaulting the pope (can.1370) and priests divulging matters heard in the confessional (can.1388). Most excommunications can only follow a tribunal trial (can. 1425, 1, 2). But latae sententiae penalties operate like a bill of attainder in that there is no "process" for their imposition--the fact that the person voluntarily performed the proscribed act, in the absence of some exception provided in the law, means the penalty is incurred. An excommunication can usually be lifted by the local bishop (the "local ordinary") and sometimes by a priest during confession (can. 1354-1357).

The 1917 Code had a similar provision:

Canon 2350, 1 -- Persons who procure abortion, mothers not excepted, automatically incur excommunication reserved to the Ordinary at the moment the crime takes effect: if they are clerics, they shall also be deposed.

Though it is clear enough the Church has always regarded abortion as a serious sin, it was not always accorded a penal sanction in Canon Law equal to that given homicide (nor is it now, see can.1397, supra).

The first papal canon, Effraenatam, that universally imposed a penal penalty of excommunication for abortion was issued by Sixtus V in 1588. It applied to all abortions and was reserved to the Holy See. In 1591, the law was modified by Gregory XIV so that the penalty would not apply when a fetus was not "animated" or "ensouled" under the Aristo-Aquinan theory of when human life begins (not before 40 days) and gave the local bishops control of these cases. This was motivated, at least in part, by the sheer volume of litigation the law had produced ("reserved to the Holy See" meant that each case had to be taken to Rome for the excommunication to be lifted). In 1869, Pius IX rescinded the animation exception. The canons of the 1917 and 1983 Codes apply to all direct abortions. Abortions incident to otherwise lawful medical care that is required to save the life of the mother (e.g. chemotherapy, hysterectomy of a cancerous uterus) are given an interpretive exception from the rule under the priciple of "double effect."

As in all penal laws there are qualifications as to who is subject to a law--Canon 1321, and following, of the 1983 Code makes such provisions.

Irregularity

From the earliest days of the Church, men who had shed human blood, no matter how justifiable or blameless the act may have been, were excluded from entering the priesthood (e.g., Decretum Gratiani by Pope Innocent I in the year 404). This traditionally embraced abortion as a form of homicide. However, in 1211, Pope Innocent III issued the decree Sicut ex, which limited the irregularity incurred from abortion to abortions involving a fetus that was not "animated" or "ensouled." This exception was subsequently abrogated as both of the modern codes have provisions that apply to all abortions (can. 985, 4 in the 1917 Code, and can.1041, 4 in the 1983 Code).

To me that means if he supports abortion laws and others who perform or recieve abortion he is supporting their excommunication. How does that make any sense? "I support your right to have or give abortions but get the hell out of my church now" kind of stupid on his part dont you think ?

Just face it bud, the guy is wrong to support abortion. In fact he probably should be excommunicated for it.
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