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Old 04-03-2004, 05:03 PM   #26
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by Deadscale
I remember how they fed us that crap "the war on drugs" during school with those school assemblies when we were in pre-k. Funny how the smart kids in my school are the ones now whom are all snorting/injecting, guess being "smart" worked for them, they aren't caught as often.
Interesting. Do you remember learning about the mid-evil days in England
where they were beheading people for crimes as small as "stealing bread"?.
The whole point of execution was to deter crime, and people were being executed
by the hundreds per day, including children. Well, the crimes continued even
when faced with certain death. Imagine that.

I honestly don't believe there is any deterrence to crime, "asside from a
proper Education, (foremost) and many other factors that could be debated
into oblivion. But thats just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Deadscale
I guess the vibe I'm getting from reading that the majority of crime comes from illegal/legal mexicans is just irking me. Every race shares it equally, just that they aren't caught.
I share your concern, "and i'm sure everyone does. Also, If you look at the population
in the areas where crime is committed, you will find that the majority of
crime is caused by the race majority of said area's that could be as small
as just a 1/4 mile. I wouldn't sweat it, Shock sells the news these days.

Originally Posted by Deadscale
Jobs being taken away? They are plenty here in Edinburg. I always see someone new added at Wal-Mart when I stop by and they are still hiring. Hollywood Video, still hiring, Whataburger, still hiring. Not accurate on distance, but the border to Mexico is 30-45min away.
Exactly. And if we made it easier for immigrants to get temporary work visas,
those jobs would be filled by people that may only wish to be here in the USA
for maybe 3-6 months before returning to their homeland. And 6-months
work here for min wage is like 2-3 years pay in Mexico. Less illegals?,
who knows. Hasn't been tested. But we can call & vote for a resolution
with our leaders.

*Salute*



God Bless America
Zolmaz.
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Old 04-03-2004, 05:52 PM   #27
Deadscale
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Originally Posted by Zolmaz
Interesting. Do you remember learning about the mid-evil days in England where they were beheading people for crimes as small as "stealing bread"?. The whole point of execution was to deter crime, and people were being executed by the hundreds per day, including children. Well, the crimes continued even when faced with certain death. Imagine that.
/nod

I remember that, one of the reasons why I support the death penalty (not to that extreme though). People will still commit the crimes, but it adds some fear to it and might sway some from doing it. You'll be exterminating them one by one at least. Really is sad though, when an innocent gets jail time or the death penalty itself.

You look at some of the criminals today and they make really really dumb decisions while doing their crimes or forget something important

"Shit! I shouldn't have stole that television from that store, the police station is right across!"

Having sex with some girl and then killing her? Come on, your semen will give you away, no?

Shouldn't do something unless you know you can get away with it.

Then again, it makes it easier for the authorities to catch these retards
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Old 04-03-2004, 07:12 PM   #28
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Deadscale, So very true.
No such thing as a smart criminal. In fact, the really good ones
are in prison. I know because some of my old friends are guards in Texas.

And yes, I believe the death penalty should only be used for horrible crimes.
Not for detering crime, "But for the fullest punishment exacted by law against
the worst criminals of society.

Sorry for deflecting the premise of the thread.



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Zolmaz.

Last edited by Zolmaz Zo'Boto; 04-03-2004 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 04-03-2004, 07:32 PM   #29
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Guest worker programs are a step better than amnesty, but the problem with guest worker programs is that the companies that are hiring illegals now, are not going to register with a guest worker program and pay these people minimum wage and benefits. The reason that they are hiring them in the first place is to get cheap labor. The government needs to crack down on the companies. In saying that, they won't because most companies claim they did not know, or that the illegal provided documentation, and they couldn't tell it was false. In Arizona, they tried to get a law enacted that would take away a company's business license if they got caught hiring illegals. The law is getting shot down because people are saying that is too harsh. Well, we have to start somewhere. We need to protect our citizens and enforce the laws on the books. Down here in AZ illegals can steal vehicles, crash into your vehicle, kill people in accidents and still get taken right back over the border with no punishment. If I stole a vehicle and crashed into someone I would be doing jail time. I can run on and on about the ridiculous situations that exist along our border and most of you wouldn't believe it. It annoys me that this is a country that disregards our laws and constantly comes to us demanding "rights" for their citizens, which they do not afford us.
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Old 04-03-2004, 07:32 PM   #30
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Do we have the right? ....no.

There is no set point at which we 'lost' that right; I suppose anyone should be able to do it. However, given that we have taken it upon ourselves to act as a World Police and keep some places from falling into ruin, we don't have the right. If we slowly withdrew so as to prevent mass chaos where our presence was the only thing maintaining order, then yes.

Otherwise, it's just hypocritical of us. "We're not going to give you that help we decided to give you."

It becomes a threat, another muscle to make the world do our bidding.
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:16 PM   #31
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Second, It is a myth that they only want jobs that no one else will do.
That lie is promulagated by the employers who want cheap labor.
I say prosecute those employers.
I have never heard or seen a illegal working a white collar job here in the states.

Alauradana you are wildly racist. You act as if the guy who hijacked you're neighbors car was the ambassador of Mexico.

start looking into the percentages of how many are in the country, versus how many are in our jails, you will find it highly out of proportion with the rest of the population.
Could it be that they are here illegally?

Also if you agree that the majority (more then 1/2) are not out to cause trouble then my statement is correct. Observe;
Most of them are nice folks who are here to cause as little trouble as possible.
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:19 PM   #32
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Alauradana,
Your questions and statements interest me.
I appriciate your interest and honesty.

Originally Posted by Alauradana
Guest worker programs are a step better than amnesty, but the problem with guest worker programs is that the companies that are hiring illegals now, are not going to register with a guest worker program and pay these people minimum wage and benefits.
Not exactly true since those companies need workers. And when legal workers
increase, and the threat of fines decrease, those companies will pay for the
work that any worker is willing to give. It's incentive "I agree". But most illegals
come to America for seasonal work. They have children and families to support back in Mexico. Thats the tough decision that keeps our lawmakers
from making a carrier mistake. It could be either way. There is no win!,
unless we (Americans) fix the problem.

"BUT", there must be a solution first. And there is no solution., yet.


Originally Posted by Alauradana
The reason that they are hiring them in the first place is to get cheap labor. The government needs to crack down on the companies. In saying that, they won't because most companies claim they did not know, or that the illegal provided documentation, and they couldn't tell it was false.
Nobody ever admits to a crime. See Prison-101. Everybody is innocent.


Originally Posted by Alauradana
In Arizona, they tried to get a law enacted that would take away a company's business license if they got caught hiring illegals. The law is getting shot down because people are saying that is too harsh. Well, we have to start somewhere. We need to protect our citizens and enforce the laws on the books.
Closing companies means less income. Less income means, less police. Less police means,
caos! No company+No taxes=No city services.

Consider another option (It's your town) and call your officials. It's ok, they are
not the 666-beasts you've been told. Honest.



Originally Posted by Alauradana
Down here in AZ illegals can steal vehicles, crash into your vehicle, kill people in accidents and still get taken right back over the border with no punishment. If I stole a vehicle and crashed into someone I would be doing jail time. I can run on and on about the ridiculous situations that exist along our border and most of you wouldn't believe it. It annoys me that this is a country that disregards our laws and constantly comes to us demanding "rights" for their citizens, which they do not afford us.
Crime is everywhere Alauradana. You cannot change crime. It's so much a part
of society that nobody can stop it. Any society. Go back 1000 years and crime is crime.

Don't burdon yourself on the evil so much. Look to your own future, because that is
the only thing that anybody has a medium chance of controling.

I love the future. It's the "not knowing", that captivates me the most.
But that's just me. God Bless.





God Bless America
Zolmaz Zo'Boto (Dateline-1200-ad, Dear diary, Just the other day I cart-jacked a donkey-cart full of wheat, now i'm going to beheaded)

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Old 04-03-2004, 09:45 PM   #33
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Do we have the right? Sure.

Would it be wise? Would it be fair? Would it be true to our heritage? Would it be diplomatically correct in regards to foreign relations? Maybe, maybe not.

I don't personally have a problem with legal immigrants. I'm proud to be a citizen of the United States, and to offer people the "land of freedom and equality" bit that they might not be able to get in their own country. That's the premise that this nation was built on.

I do, in some cases, have a problem with illegal immigrants. I haven't even looked into what it takes to become a US citizen. I was born and raised here and it's never been an issue. Maybe the process is hard? I don't know.
I do know that if I were to move to a foreign country, I'd do a few things to make sure I was able to become a productive member of their society. I'd learn their language. I'd learn their laws and legal system. I'd become a citizen if that were possible, or obtain whatever documentation is necessary to obtain temporary permission to be in the country and work there. I would expect the same of anyone taking up more than just vacational-type residence in my country.
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Old 04-03-2004, 10:50 PM   #34
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Originally Posted by Brigiid
I do know that if I were to move to a foreign country, I'd do a few things to make sure I was able to become a productive member of their society.

I'd learn their language.

I'd learn their laws and legal system.

I'd become a citizen if that were possible, or obtain whatever documentation is
necessary to obtain temporary permission to be in the country and work there.

I would expect the same of anyone taking up more than just vacational-type residence in my country.
I'm speachless. Your logic is rare these day's Brigiid. I fully support this veiw.
God Bless you and your family.



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Old 04-04-2004, 05:25 AM   #35
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Most of the illegals from mexico move here into a place where they all speak spanish, and where they work everyone speaks spanish too. Not to metion they probably have a poor education to begin with.

That is why it is hard for them to learn. Personally I wouldn't like it if everyone spoke English. I think we would be losing a lot of culture.
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Old 04-04-2004, 09:36 AM   #36
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Quote Maximus "Alauradana you are wildly racist. You act as if the guy who hijacked you're neighbors car was the ambassador of Mexico."


I find it quite interesting Maximus that I keep referring to illegals and you keep referring to Mexicans, if anything that makes you the racist for stereotyping illegals, they are not only coming from Mexico, they are coming from many of the South American countries as well. How do you explain the fact that you are stereotyping, which is RACIST???? How does my being tired of seeing this crime make me racist? Wanting the border closed down to the criminals that ARE entering makes me a racist? I am also tired of the terrorist bombings. I guess that makes me racist as well for wanting those people to be stopped?

Hmm....here we go again, so it annoys the hell out of me that close to my neighborhood there are shootings, hijackings, murders and because I think the border should be shut down I am racist? Give me a break, that is exactly what all the idiotic civil rights groups out here claim. If you feel that "ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION" (hello, it is ILLEGAL) is wrong, you are labeled a racist. Can't you come up with anything more original to argue with? People are always saying these are nice folks coming across the border. I say that they are not ALL nice, and I am a racist for pointing that out? You dont' have any good reason for wanting thousands of people to walk across our border without any method of controlling them and if anyone disagrees then label them a racist?

And yes, there are a high percentage of ILLEGALS (note I said Illegals and not Mexicans) in jail compared to the illegal population in this country. Do you not think we have enough criminals in this country without letting in the criminals from other nations? If they were following the law like they were supposed to, we would be able to monitor who came in. The purpose of legal immigration is to enrich our society. When it is done properly, it works. Our border needs to be shut down plain and simple. A guest worker program that would allow these people to come here and work legally would allow us to control who enters and who doesn't.

I am fed up with the situation, I am not a racist. I am tired of the fact that illegals (not just the ones from Mexico whom you seem to think I am posting about) commit crimes and are sent back across the border without any repercussions. If I were to drive down to Mexico and get into an accident without insurance, I would be looking at hard jail time. I think fair is fair and EVERYONE should be treated the same. I am tired of illegals coming into our hospitals and paying nought when I am being charged more to cover the cost of their bills.

It is easy to sit back in your chair nice and smug and talk about these nice folk when you don't have to deal with them.
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Old 04-04-2004, 09:46 AM   #37
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By the way Maximus, because everyone likes to throw this word around so much to try and make someone look bad, I decided to pull a Luri and list the definition:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race


Now please show me where I said anything that was discriminating or prejudiced based on race. Pretty hard considering I wasn't referring to race, I was referring to a group of people who are breaking the law. That doesn't make them a race so there is no way I could be racist. Insinuating that illegals are Mexicans, is stereotyping, which means that you are insinuating that the Mexican race are illegals, and that IS racism.


ster·e·o·type ( P ) Pronunciation Key (str--tp, stîr-)
n.
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.
Printing. A metal printing plate cast from a matrix molded from a raised printing surface, such as type.
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Old 04-04-2004, 09:55 AM   #38
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What happened to all people respecting the law?

If they are here illegally, they are breaking the law.
What other laws might they also have contempt for?
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Old 04-04-2004, 09:58 AM   #39
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Chiteng, this is one of the things we agree on, I believe you live in an area similar to mine. I think people would only understand the impact if they actually saw it. I really boggles me because life where I live, is not like living in the US at all.
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Old 04-04-2004, 10:08 AM   #40
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Unhappily yes. They wont care unless they actually SEE it, with their own eyes. I used to be a moderate on that topic.
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Old 04-04-2004, 11:08 AM   #41
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Hmm, breaking into the country, stike 1
using false ID to attain a job, strike 2
working here without a work vesa or green card, strike 3

what happend to 3 strikes and your fucked? or zero tolerance?

i know, lets reward law breakers.

with the way we curently just ship them back to their home we are ALLOWING them to traffic alot of drugs with no worrys, LA is a prime example
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Old 04-04-2004, 12:50 PM   #42
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Yep, reward em!

Send em all to the great state of California, give em drivers licenses, free health care, etc.

Now, see how many white collar people lose their jobs. The fact is, quite a few would. Why you ask. Think of the 'big picture''. Someone has to pay for all that 'free' stuff. Since it is all tax based, the taxpayers and companies pay for it. If companies and individuals have to pay so much in taxes, that they can't maintain a decent living or profit, they move. Companies moving means less jobs in that area. Just one small example, its a HUGE cyclic path, that ensures that nothing is ever free.

Another example, just to be informative. Say that most jobs are taken at minimum wage by 'illegals'. There is actually an overabundance of workers for unskilled or minimally skilled jobs. The next step up, 'semi-skilled', like, dump truck drivers, aren't going to get paid very damn much above minimum wages. The reason being, employers know that semi-skilled workers have to take what is offered, what else can they possibly do. The semi-skilled workers, some of which usually would be actually working in the unskilled jobs, now have an overabundance of workers/job.

Simplified, but understandable?

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As far as closing the borders, I think we should just making being an illegal....illegal? /boggle California lawmakers

Last edited by Vulpes; 04-04-2004 at 12:52 PM. Reason: dangit, forgot to address the whole border closing thing
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:03 PM   #43
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What exactly do people propose we do to replace the labor that would be lost from "shutting down borders"? The same people whining about illegal immigrants are the same ones who would whine and complain if they had to pay $2.00 for a tomato!

I have worked in a company that hired immigrants. We required them to provide "documentation", we didn't speculate as to authenticity, you know why? We had to compete! You want to shut down companies who hire illegals? Great, there go ALL the jobs from that company. you want companies to stay here, but you try to tie their hands and won't let them compete. The immigrants that worked for us did a damn good job, and we didn't have to pay them overtime, or withold taxes, because they were contracted labor. If you think for a second that an educated person would have wanted one of those warhouse jobs, think again. If someone did want one of those jobs, they would have wanted too much money to do it!

I agree that illegal immigrants in large part are a strain on some aspects of social spending, primarily dealing with illegals birthing children here and claiming health care. What I don't agree with is the ridiculous onus of responsibility that people place on companies for solving economic issues. Businesses are to make money. Successful business try to help make sure that people have jobs.

People who whine that they are unemployed and want businesses to solve their problems deserve a backhand to the face. Crying for harder legislation on business just adds to the incentive to outsource. If I owned a company, I would much rather outsource than deal with whiny Americans crying for someone else to solve their problems, waiting in line to reach into my pockets. Conducting interviews, I found it apalling when people, who weren't even offered positions, were already asking about benefits! When I talked to our immigrant workers, they said they would work hard, that I could count on them.

~Tired of hearing whiny people with this attitude that businesses, the US, or the World owes them something. They owe you nothing.
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:07 PM   #44
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Those companies can hire under the guest worker program can't they? I would rather pay $2.00 for a tomato than see 9/11 again in a heartbeat.
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Old 04-04-2004, 02:20 PM   #45
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I would rather pay $2.00 for a tomato than see 9/11 again in a heartbeat.


I'm of Spanish decent (the place where ETA is at! )
Can trace my family tree in the U.S./Texas/Tejas/Mexico/whatever you wanna call South Texas, to at least 1800 (that's to at least where my father stopped looking).

Yes, I'm going to go cause another 9/11, maybe the ETA wanted to contact me since I've been in the U.S. for years, and the U.S. government won't suspect me!

I'm going to wait till 11/11/11, 11:11pm for my attack
(God if something happens then, don't come to me )

Oh, and I just love flaunting it in front of those "racist" people at my college when I outdo them in an exam/paper. That really really pisses them off
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Old 04-04-2004, 03:09 PM   #46
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I as you did never insinuated that all Mexicans here are illegals. I'm glad you brought up stereotype though, it is a more accurate. You are stereotyping all illegals based on the actions of a small minority.

I say that they are not ALL nice
Actually you did.
Please don't post how these are nice people just wanting jobs.
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Old 04-04-2004, 04:06 PM   #47
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Wrong Everclear. First, I can live w/o Tomatoes if it came to that.
Second we live in a land of LAW. You obey the law, or you go to jail.
I dont give a damn about the impact on your corrupt company.
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Old 04-04-2004, 07:24 PM   #48
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As Chiteng has stated, he is an idealist. Any applications of his thoughts and ideas to the real world are strictly coincidental.

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Old 04-04-2004, 07:40 PM   #49
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Chiteng has the right to his views as a idealist just like I and many of you have the right to the views of a realist.
I am a realist. Many of the things that bother idealist don't phase realist.

I learned a long time ago that life isn't fair. There are no elected officials that can make everybody happy all the time. You have to pick your fights wisely and most of us pick our fights as to what directly effects us as an individual.

Yes, I would mind paying $2.00 for a tomato therefore illegal immigrants don't bother me as much as they might Chiteng or somebody else that lives in a State that has to compete with them for labor.

My husband ask me all the time "what would you be willing to fight for"? I have a job, a house, money for food and EQ. I guess if and when the time comes that the Government can come in my home at any time for any reason and tell me how to live, I would get fired up.
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Old 04-04-2004, 10:54 PM   #50
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I kind of view illegal immigrants as uninvited houseguests.

You didn't ask them to come over. They just showed up. You walked in from work one afternoon, and there they were, sitting on your couch, wearing your favorite sweats, watching your big screen TV. They're eating out of your fridge and living off of your water, electricity, gas, etc. They're not kicking in a dime in paying for those services, but they're enjoying the benefits just the same.

The reason that I feel immigrants should be forced to become citizens is simple. If they're going to benefit from US services, they should be helping pay for them. Illegal immigrants benefit from our paved roads, street lights, stop signs, parks, public libraries, and law enforcement. Those may not seem like big resources, but the cost involved in providing them totals into the millions and billions every year. That money has to come from somewhere. Some of it comes from taxes being paid for by US citizens. If I'm paying for my portion of the highway, who is paying for the portion that they're using? Oh, I am.

Illegal immigrants also have access to healthcare that they don't necessarily have to pay for. If they have a serious enough problem, hospitals can't turn them away, with or without insurance. If they don't have health benefits because they're working undocumented labor jobs, do they just pay that $10K+ medical expense out of pocket? I doubt it.

Granted, your average citizen could find themselves in the same boat where that's concerned. The difference being that your average citizen has an authenticatable identification, and it can be tracked to their credit report and collection agencies. There is a way to track us down and try to obtain repayment for those services. We deal with a lot of illegal immigrants where I live that don't have any sort of identification whatsoever. They can swap names with their brothers, uncles, dads, whatever, and never have anything tracked back to them because they don't have a valid photo identification in their name.

Where is their ultimate accountability in paying for the services they receive? If they can make it inside our borders, they're set. They're living off of the american economy without paying to support it. Sure, they're spending money at Wal-Mart to support sales, but they're not paying taxes. They're not owning homes or investing money or making any of the grander steps toward financial interaction with the rest of the country. They're reproducing and creating children that will attend our schools and receive our healthcare without it being paid for.

Corporations that employ illegal workers are only exascerbating the problem. The promise of work encourages them to falsify identification documents, a crime in most states. They pay them enough money to survive without the necessity of becoming a citizen and don't question the documentation they do provide. Where's the incentive then, to become a contributing member of society? If you can work and receive money, cram enough other people like you into one house so that you can afford to live dirt cheap, and you can receive benefits provided by the US, state, or local government, why would you become a paying citizen? You're getting a free ride, and forcing american tax payers to support your existence here!

Don't get me wrong - I don't mean to keep anyone from coming to our country and pursuing the american dream. I'm not culturally biased or feel that they should just have to "stay where they came from". I just feel that if they're going to move into our home, they should help out with the chores or chip in for rent, rather than just mooching off our hospitality. I would expect to do the same if I were to take up permanent residence in another country.
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Meh.

Last edited by Brigiid; 04-04-2004 at 11:04 PM.
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