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Old 04-05-2004, 11:15 AM   #51
AresProphet
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Hormadrune isn't talking about apst presidents, even though Trith has his confused.

Inmountains, what if the economy goes sour? Would Bush be accountable then?

What if it improves? Is that his doing?

Unless you answer "yes" to both questions, or "no" to both questions, you are an imbecile.
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:19 AM   #52
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I wish I could be like Trith and rewrite the rules of economics to consistently credit my party for all that is good while blaming the opposition for all that is wrong. Unfortunately I don't have that sort of poker-face and would bust out laughing everytime I tried spewing such self-serving BS.

Originally Posted by Inmountains
If the economy improves now, it's because Bush's policies and his hard effort are returning rewards much quicker than Reagan's did.
Case in point. You guys are amazing. I wish I could so easily discard facts and logic in order to support my party.
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:53 AM   #53
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Case in point. You guys are amazing. I wish I could so easily discard facts and logic in order to support my party.
You do. You are just too brainwashed to realize it.
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:55 AM   #54
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:55 AM   #55
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Unless you answer "yes" to both questions, or "no" to both questions, you are an imbecile.
careful..you are going to offend every Democrat on this board..because their play book firmly says the only way they can answer that question is Yes and then No...
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Old 04-05-2004, 12:31 PM   #56
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read the quote again
One of the most important places for economic trade world-wide is destroyed
The destruction of the WTC had no noticeable long term affect on worldwide trade. Wildane was suggesting the building was in some way important to worldwide trade, I'm disagreeing. Am I saying 9/11 didn't hit confidence? of course not. Did I say that the markets didn't panic? No.

9/11 was a small blip on the financial markets radar
Well, rather than try to explain it to you; look at a chart of almost any index from August 2001 until now. Of course the markets panicked, and then they swiftly recovered. That's called a blip.

What happened on 9/11 was arguably good for the US domestic economy in the medium term. It focussed minds away from the dot.com crash and corporate scandals that were weighing on the economy. And just look at the amount of money pumped into domestic security companies and defence. Of course the vast majority of that was funded with debt, which will becomg an increasing problem.
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:46 PM   #57
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Trith,

The PROOF that the economy does NOT work the way you claim is simple.
Bush Sr had 8 YEARS of Reaganomics and then 4 YEARS of his own.
that means 12 YEARS. Odd that the economy fell apart and he was voted out of office after all that carefull nuturing =)

No the economy runs NOTHING like Rush claims. Its all hype to try and spread the blame.
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:48 PM   #58
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Yeah I am sure the Gateway computer sales people are overjoyed at the booming economy. 2500+ were just layed off.

But the economy is booming?
Forget Gateway folks, look at the 12,500 BofA folks... The good news, BofA stock is up today.
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Old 04-05-2004, 03:08 PM   #59
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You are crazy if you think Im quoting Rush. I have thought that about 24 hour news loops for a long time and nobody gave me the idea of disliking them. I could just tell the effect they have on people by the effect it had on me. I didnt enjoy the up and down swings they created.

I have listened to Rush prolly 4-5 times in the last year and I didnt even listen to the whole show. I have no major need to listen to him, I can figure stuff out for myself.
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Old 04-05-2004, 04:18 PM   #60
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Aresprophet,
I'll try to keep this as simple as it was to find a very basic anology of
the loss due to only the 9/11 attack. You may be surprised.

Originally Posted by Aresprophet
Your analogy doesn't quite work, by the way. You are
saying that the collapse of the towers irrevocably changed the economic
landscape. By the way, I would like to see some numbers and estimates of
financial damage caused by the collapse, and to what areas. I really am not too
sure how big a setback the economy took.


The financial cost

Value of US economy: $11 trillion



Estimated cost of attacks to US based solely on property losses and

insurance costs: $21billion



Estimated total losses to the world insurance market from the World Trade

Centre: 25bn-50bn



Amount of office space lost, in square feet: 13.5m



Estimated number of jobs lost in lower Manhattan area following 9/11:

100,000



Number of jobs it has been estimated will be lost in the US as result of the

attacks by the end of 2002: 1.8m



Number of jobs lost in US travel industry in last 5 months of 2001: 237,000



Amount it has been estimated that US commercial insurance premiums will rise

by to cover the potential cost of future terrorism between 2002 and 2004: 50%
Amount allocated by Congress for emergency assistance to airline industry in
September 2001: $15bn



Check the site and see the impact on a larger scale for yourself.

Please try not to minimize the emotional impact to those of us who
really and truly do care.


edit, Here is another breakdown of the financial cost of 9/11.
To those who are honestly concerned without an agenda.

I'm sure others can find more.




God Bless America
Zolmaz.

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Old 04-05-2004, 06:26 PM   #61
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Thumbs up Wow

Zolmaz just kicked... I believe this is where someone says something along the lines of...

"PWNT!"

Just wanted to be the first.
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:56 AM   #62
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Festivus..did you read the article?

Banking giant plans to reduce work force as a result of its $48 billion purchase of FleetBoston.
That's not the result of the economy..that's the result of pure fucking greed and the bank being stupid enough to overextend themselves by $48 Billion dollars, not to mention replacing the workers of Fleetboston. This isn't downsizing...sounds more like a hostile takeover..which is the sign of a strong economy..not a weak one.
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:05 AM   #63
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That takeover is exactly the corporate raiding that ravaged the 90s. I think that kind of business method is much worse than outsourcing ever could be.
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:26 AM   #64
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No "PWNED" here. I was asking for stastics out of curiosity. I'm a bit surprised though...

Estimated cost of attacks to US based solely on property losses and

insurance costs: $21billion

Estimated total losses to the world insurance market from the World Trade

Centre: 25bn-50bn
Ok, there's that sudden drop I'm talking about, but no long-term change...

Estimated number of jobs lost in lower Manhattan area following 9/11: 100,000
Fewer than 1/3 of the number of jobs created this month
Number of jobs it has been estimated will be lost in the US as result of the attacks by the end of 2002: 1.8m
As a result of the attacks? Hang about. Where do they get this? What qualifies as a job lost as a direct result of the attacks? Any job lost at all? In a specific industry or location? Hmm...

Number of jobs lost in US travel industry in last 5 months of 2001: 237,000
I'd like to see numbers since then. Did the trend continue, or reverse? How many jobs were created as a result of increased security measures?

In conclusion: staggering immediate losses, but no long-term effects than can be causally linked to 9/11. My point still stands: there has been ample time for the effects to have been mitigated and compensated for.

I would not have said this in April of 2002, as I stated before, but we're two years ahead of then.

Edit: going through the GAO (what the hell is that?) document Zolmaz linked.

80% of about 125,000 jobs lost in lower Manhattan were consider a direct result of the attacks. That's about 100,000.

Estimation was that $27 billion in indirect losses would be acrrued through 2002.

The same document cites a study by the Fiscal Policy Institute (who are they?) stating that about 74,000 jobs lost in the 4th quarter of 2001 was a number lower than predicted.

Five months after, the same FPI estimated net losses to be around $16 billion. This is not a large number. $87 billion in aid went to Iraq; a small portion of that could balance out the 9/11 loss. This was a lower number than the $54 billion initially predicted shortly after the attacks.

But we're still getting bogged down in the immediate loss, which I agree is still staggering. What you are trying to do is claim that 9/11 changed the economy as a whole, something the job loss numbers don't reflect.

It is, indeed, just a blip on the financial radar.

Second edit: it seems the state Comptrollers office sent a pretty strong letter to the GAO, stating their methods as incorrect and their estimates very low. Someone wants to get more aid than an outside auditor thinks they deserved...

The source is pretty old, though.

I'll end this edit with a quote from that document:

"More data on the economy's performance since September 11, 2001, are becoming available, but as the attacks become more distant in time, it may be less easy to disentangle their economic effects from other events that would have occurred anyway (such as the fallout from Enron and changing macroeconomic conditions" (page 36)
If anyone is PWNED here it's Zolmaz, by his own link.
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:36 AM   #65
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That's not the result of the economy..that's the result of pure fucking greed and the bank being stupid enough to overextend themselves by $48 Billion dollars, not to mention replacing the workers of Fleetboston. This isn't downsizing...sounds more like a hostile takeover..which is the sign of a strong economy..not a weak one.
That doesn't change the fact that 12,500 people are now out of a job... which was my intended point. I didn't say it was the result of the economy, but I guess it was implied with the stuff I had quoted.. my bad. I was trying to point out that there are even more jobs being lost, you read about it every day. I am really curious to see what the job numbers will look like next month, in terms of total jobs created, how many went on the unemployment roles, and how many fell off the unemployment roles because their benefit ran out.
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:45 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by AresProphet

Edit: going through the GAO (what the hell is that?) document Zolmaz linked.
GAO = The United States General Accounting Office

http://www.gao.gov/

Edit added link to the GAO.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:03 AM   #67
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Job loss numbers on their own mean very little. 2 million people can lose their jobs - sounds awful right? What if 2.5 million jobs were also created? I'm sure you're aware of the pifalls with statistics.

And AresProphet is right, how do you decide if a job loss stemmed from 9/11? I remember one of my local sandwich bars in London closing down 'as a result of 9/11'. It was used as a scapegoat by many.

When the climate is crap, companies aren't expected to do well so they take the opportunity to release all their bad news and make tough decisions. As an example, the airline industry had many problems before 9/11. The market was extremely uncompetitive and completely saturated, both in the US and in Europe. It was inevitable that some of them were going under even before.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:12 AM   #68
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GAO. Also known as, Goddamn Aresprophet, it's Obvious!

Thanks for clearing that up.
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