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Old 04-05-2004, 08:37 AM   #176
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711 quoted me $7-90 for a pkt 20 'Horizon' today, which is the 2nd cheapest brand after 'Holiday'. PJ's would cost a tad more. I got a pkt of 'Horizon' for $6-45 at the Supermarket. 711 would charge about what it costs in a Milk bar, teh Supermarkets is a tad over what ya'd pay at a tobacconist (if selling at discount, coz some don't).
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Old 04-05-2004, 10:32 AM   #177
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http://www.boston.com/yourlife/healt..._out_to_smoke/

Children of smokers have twice the level of a chemical that indicates tobacco smoke exposure even when the parents smoke outside the home only. Interesting little tidbit for those of you who think you aren't exposing your children by lighting up solely on the porch or wherever. My guess is this would hold true for bar patrons also- the smokers being outside doesn't entirely eliminate the health risks.

My new solution: internment camps for smokers. Round you all up and place you in filter-sealed biodomes (I'm kidding, aren't I?)
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Old 04-05-2004, 12:20 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Children of smokers have twice the level of a chemical that indicates tobacco smoke exposure even when the parents smoke outside the home only. Interesting little tidbit for those of you who think you aren't exposing your children by lighting up solely on the porch or wherever. My guess is this would hold true for bar patrons also- the smokers being outside doesn't entirely eliminate the health risks.
/rollseyes.....OMG how far will people go? Not you Hormadrune, but the person that wrote the article.
I guess the next thing we'll have to do is make our kids wear those little white mask so they never come in contact with things that are bad for them.
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Old 04-05-2004, 12:25 PM   #179
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could this be Homodrune jr?
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...child203ap.jpg
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:00 PM   #180
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Play with my name all you want Chuk- you're the one who smokes pipe remember.

And why is researching health hazards going too far Caelie? You can roll your eyes all you want, but smoking always has been and always will be a health hazard to smokers and non-smokers alike.
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:41 PM   #181
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I don't think a poster on this board will disagree with you Hormadrune. Smoking is bad for you and second hand smoke can't possibly be healthy for a person.
But...for some yahoo to write an article of research that a person smoking outside with the door shut effects children inside is absurd.
It's a wonder we aren't all dead now.

If I smoke a cigarette and blow on a hankie five minutes later, yes there will be a tiny bit of nicotine stain on that hankie. To say that leftover smoke is enough to harm a child is just unbelievable to me.
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:46 PM   #182
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yup, people go overboard in their crusade agesnt smoking, YES we know its harmful, but so is beer, we just dont fucking care! we dont need you looking out for us by pushing us out of our clubs and bars, and making us huddle togeather outside for warmth while we light up.

its simple, if you dont like smoke dont be near smoke, and if 1 smoker comes in and pisses of the bar, the patrons of that bar could tell the owner they wont come back, if enough say that to the owner then there will be a no smoking sign put up, its THAT simple, appeal to the owners greed if you want a change, dont go over their heads and to the state if they tell you to fuck off, they are showing they dont want your uppity bussiness
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Old 04-06-2004, 09:32 AM   #183
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In response to what I said:

Originally Posted by Myself
Where then do you get off trying to tell consenting adults that they can't go breathe smoke if they want to?
Aresprophet said:

Originally Posted by Aresprophet
What about those who don't want to breathe smoke? Just not smoking doesn't cut it; they have to avoid smokers entirely.

I would have no problem with people smoking if it didn't affect others who would rather avoid the smoke. You'll note that I mention this plenty: smoking in privacy is fine, as is smoking among those who don't mind it. In bars, however, there are those who do not want to breathe smoke. They just want to relax and have a beer.
No one forces people to go to bars. It isn't mandatory. Even if it were, there are plenty of bars that don't allow smoking. People who want to drink without smoke are free to go there. Why shouldn't the people who want to smoke be allowed to go to the places that allow it?

Why do you want to reduce the options available? Does controlling people get you excited?

I'm pretty sure this concept has been expressed in this thread before:

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
If you want to avoid smoke, avoid places where people smoke.
Live your own life, and leave other people alone to live theirs.
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Old 04-06-2004, 10:05 AM   #184
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there are plenty of bars that don't allow smoking. People who want to drink without smoke are free to go there.
So if I don't like gays, I shouldn't go to a gay bar? Sounds reasonable to me.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:06 PM   #185
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The point is that these are places where people should not be smoking. Can you get that through your skull? It's a public place, with people around, and just because it serves alcohol does not somehow also make it logical to have tobacco smoke all over the place.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:13 PM   #186
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The point is that these are places where people should not be smoking. Can you get that through your skull? It's a public place, with people around, and just because it serves alcohol does not somehow also make it logical to have tobacco smoke all over the place.

oh?

Alcohol use linked to smoking addiction
Source: UPI, 2004-03-22

Intro:
U.S. researchers have found even small amounts of alcohol can boost the pleasurable effects of nicotine, a key link between smoking and drinking.

In tests on human volunteers, Duke University Medical Center researchers said they found a physiological explanation for the common observation that people smoke more in bars. The findings also explain statistics showing alcoholics tend to smoke more than non-alcoholics, and smokers are more likely to be alcoholics.

The findings, they said, also might help show why those who have quit smoking often relapse while drinking alcohol.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:14 PM   #187
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For once and all, IT IS NOT A PUBLIC PLACE!! Not everyone can gain entrance to a bar. A city park is a public place.

Where do you get off telling an owner of a bar that he/she cannot allow people to smoke in the place they own/operate/havefinancialinterest in?
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:06 PM   #188
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Flub, we agree on most things, but definetly NOT this. A city park is PUBLIC LAND, as well as a Public Place. A bar, restaurant, sports stadium, etc... is a Public Place BECAUSE the Public is invited to come in and spend their money. A NON Public Place would be something like a Country Club, a Private Residence, most work places, etc....

You have the right to smoke, and I have the right to NOT have tobacco smoke in the air I breathe. If I am paying 30 bucks for a nice dinner and the person next to me lights up, I want to shove it down their throat and tell them to keep their carcinogens to themselves. Again, "Your RIGHT to punch me in the nose ENDS where my nose BEGINS". The same could be said about smoking, your right to exhale smoke ends where my nose begins, and if I was there FIRST, you had damn better move. If you were there first smoking, then I will chose not to be there, and laugh inside as you commit premeditated suicide.

JUST YESTERDAY, one of my best friends mother was diagnosed WITH CANCER, and she has smoked most of her adult life, and is around 55. My friend is 35 and now her mother has to move in with her and her 4 children (she is a single mom). She will have to care for her mother as well as children the ages of 4, 12, 14 and 16. And smokers say their smoking doesn't affect others, BULL SHIT. Four children are going to have to watch their grandmother die a slow and agonizing death right in front of their eyes, under the same roof. But by golly, she exercised her right to be a fucking moron, err, a smoker.

I could go on and on, but most smokers KNOW what will happen. But they are SELFISH and say "It's my right to smoke". So you tell me, is it FAIR to those four young children to have to watch their grandmother waste away and die?

SMOKING IS STUPID!!!!!!!
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:23 PM   #189
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Let me ask you smokers a question. Why do you enjoy having an inanimate object (tobacco) control your life? I hear it all the time, "I get the shakes, I can't stop the craving, yada, yada, yada. Do you REALLY enjoy being a slave to a weed?? And PLEASE don't give me that crap about ADDICTION. You were NOT born with it, you developed it all by yourself. I remember what the motivational speaker Zig Ziglar said about smokers. He said, "If someone is smoking, I really question their judgement and wisdom. With all the information about how unhealthy it is, they have to know the dangers."

People tell me that I just don't understand. I understand this, if I go out and play on the Freeway, I will get run over. If I touch a hot BBQ, I will get burned. And it didn't take a PhD from MIT to learn this.
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:23 PM   #190
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You are forgetting an important part of the public being invited to come in theory. You must conform to the rules of the establishment. If they allow smoking, then you, by walking in, agree to breathe/smell smoke. If you don't want to be breathe smoke, why did you choose to enter? (as a side note, in Louisiana, bars are considered private property)

If you don't want to have tobacco smoke in your air, don't go where people are allowed to smoke. In your arguement you seem to not realize that it is not for you to decide whethere I can light my cigar. It is up to owner. If you don't like it, buy your own place and forbid smoking. Until then, quit bitching about a choice you made.

Smoking is stupid. But so is half the shit people do. Drinking is stupid!!! Do you do that?

Sorry, but you, and the other nonsmoking nazis have yet to explain why they should be able to dictate why a bar owner does not have the ultimate authority to decide whether or not to allow smoking in a bar they own. Nor have you nonsmoking nazis been able to say why you choose to go to a place where people are allowed to smoke.
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:52 PM   #191
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Seems people are missing the point. Where Public Health Regulations say it is okay to smoke in public, you have no fucking leg to stand on to make smokers stop enjoying their perfectly legal cigarette.

Again, a public bar is covered by trading laws, health and safety regulations, liquor laws, it seems to me the fucking public must be short on info when ignoramuses imagine the bar owner decides the rules. If a publican wants to refuse business to a person, from the general public, because they lit up, it better be posted on Public Notice that the premises are a No Smoking Area. Because that's gunna be a wrongful harrassment to surreptitiously tell any individual they can't smoke, when the entire public has the right under law. If that law includes public bars and in particular if the trading regulations governing that place of business agree (licensing laws cover what sort of trade shall be practised).

So that being said,
Inmountains said - "You have the right to smoke, and I have the right to NOT have tobacco smoke in the air I breathe. If I am paying 30 bucks for a nice dinner and the person next to me lights up, I want to shove it down their throat and tell them to keep their carcinogens to themselves. Again, "Your RIGHT to punch me in the nose ENDS where my nose BEGINS". The same could be said about smoking, your right to exhale smoke ends where my nose begins, and if I was there FIRST, you had damn better move."
Wrong again, interfere with my private enjoyment of the good laws and common decency of right thinking people and I (a) Will go get my shotgun on teh car seat, and shoot you. or (b) Beat the living fuck, conversely, out of you (I can't talk when I am fighting, and I'd be more inclined to act than talk with you).

Either way, if the law didn't satisfy me, I would satisfy myself whatever seemed my best course. Very quickly.

Because a fucked up, loudtalking, waste of breathe, shit talker, ignorant, no good fuckhead - like yourself - would not deter me from enjoying a smoke. Or putting you back in your place, a highchair, should you try anything to prevent it. In particular because of the effort I made to determine the rights afforded me to smoking before I did so, and subsequently entered the public trading premises.

On the other hand, the publican would have no recourse but to eject you since I would be in my rights to ask him precisely that. It has been established that Australian bars are the most violent habitats on earth. Don't think nuthin would happen, big mistake.
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:41 PM   #192
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All I can say Flub and Misty is you guys are lucky that the State or Country lets the property owner decide.

Here in Georgia the people have no say about it. The politicians get together and say "yep, we voted that there will be no smoking in public places in (insert county here). Next week it will be another county. And to think I probably voted for some of those assholes.

I had an eye doctors appt last Friday. You fill out the form "do you smoke" "do you drink" etc..
He comes in and sits down and says "you're a smoker". My first thought was "oh hell, here we go again". But it wasn't like that at all. He said "what do you think about the no smoking ban". I said "well it doesn't really effect me, we don't go out much anymore". And I was shocked when he said "I'm not a smoker but I think it's unconstitutional". I was like "yep, it sure is".

It amazes me that you non smokers on this board are so one sided. There are only 2 of us at work that smoke and all the non smokers think it's "unconstitutional". This is the only place I have heard such rebellion against smoking.

Here in Georgia, people don't get in a tizzy about much other than their flag. They'll sit back and let the politicians impose law after law concerning individual rights, but you take away their Confederate flag and they protest on the courthouse steps in the thousands. Unbelievable!
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:56 PM   #193
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Realistically I don't really care if people smoke as long as I have the choice to avoid it.

However my official answer is that I hate that people are using a know toxic substance that that has no benefit whatsoever while eating billions of our dollars.
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:14 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Flub, we agree on most things, but definetly NOT this. A city park is PUBLIC LAND, as well as a Public Place. A bar, restaurant, sports stadium, etc... is a Public Place BECAUSE the Public is invited to come in and spend their money. A NON Public Place would be something like a Country Club, a Private Residence, most work places, etc....

You have the right to smoke, and I have the right to NOT have tobacco smoke in the air I breathe. If I am paying 30 bucks for a nice dinner and the person next to me lights up, I want to shove it down their throat and tell them to keep their carcinogens to themselves. Again, "Your RIGHT to punch me in the nose ENDS where my nose BEGINS". The same could be said about smoking, your right to exhale smoke ends where my nose begins, and if I was there FIRST, you had damn better move. If you were there first smoking, then I will chose not to be there, and laugh inside as you commit premeditated suicide.

JUST YESTERDAY, one of my best friends mother was diagnosed WITH CANCER, and she has smoked most of her adult life, and is around 55. My friend is 35 and now her mother has to move in with her and her 4 children (she is a single mom). She will have to care for her mother as well as children the ages of 4, 12, 14 and 16. And smokers say their smoking doesn't affect others, BULL SHIT. Four children are going to have to watch their grandmother die a slow and agonizing death right in front of their eyes, under the same roof. But by golly, she exercised her right to be a fucking moron, err, a smoker.

I could go on and on, but most smokers KNOW what will happen. But they are SELFISH and say "It's my right to smoke". So you tell me, is it FAIR to those four young children to have to watch their grandmother waste away and die?

SMOKING IS STUPID!!!!!!!

your wrong inm, it is a PRIVATE bar in most cases because there is a COVER CHARGE to get in, and no one under drinking age allowed in, it is not owned by the government, so it is PRIVATE, just because the average yahoo can walk in doesnt mean its a public place
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:21 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Flub Man
You are forgetting an important part of the public being invited to come in theory. You must conform to the rules of the establishment. If they allow smoking, then you, by walking in, agree to breathe/smell smoke. If you don't want to be breathe smoke, why did you choose to enter? (as a side note, in Louisiana, bars are considered private property)

If you don't want to have tobacco smoke in your air, don't go where people are allowed to smoke. In your arguement you seem to not realize that it is not for you to decide whethere I can light my cigar. It is up to owner. If you don't like it, buy your own place and forbid smoking. Until then, quit bitching about a choice you made.

Smoking is stupid. But so is half the shit people do. Drinking is stupid!!! Do you do that?

Sorry, but you, and the other nonsmoking nazis have yet to explain why they should be able to dictate why a bar owner does not have the ultimate authority to decide whether or not to allow smoking in a bar they own. Nor have you nonsmoking nazis been able to say why you choose to go to a place where people are allowed to smoke.

just to let everyone know there is a small victory in austin, the smoke free mondays have had ZERO people come in on the mondays, so the city counsle isnt passing a smoking ban yet! woot! go freedom!
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Old 04-06-2004, 08:42 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
People tell me that I just don't understand. I understand this, if I go out and play on the Freeway, I will get run over. If I touch a hot BBQ, I will get burned. And it didn't take a PhD from MIT to learn this.
Bad analogy. Being burned or being run over by a Mack truck are immediate things. Dying of lung cancer or emphysema aren't.
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Old 04-06-2004, 09:02 PM   #197
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Bars are public property? you mean i can walk in one and just stay there all day without paying? I dont have to pay to walk in the park, why should i have to pay to walk in the bar??????????
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:20 PM   #198
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Easy there, now.

Bars may be 'Privately' owned by a Public Trader be it a person or a business entity. But a Bar is run under the Health & Safety Laws covering any place where the public may gather (a.k.a. a Public place, or Public Bar.. meaning its type of business and environs), Regulations governing trading and commerce, licensing laws and whutever law regarding affray and teh type of patronage.

Owners may set their conditions for entry provided law doesn't already conflict with that condition of entry. Smoking might not be allowed inside by law, who knows? If so it wouldn't require a complaint, from another patron, the publican is required to eject the smoker. Not because smoking is illegal (it isn't yet) but because the publican is breaking the law if he ignores the smoker lighting up in his bar.
Some places will require a dress code, others a grooming standard (no lousy hair, B.O. Thongs, bare feet, shorts, T shirts or so forth). This condition will be posted somewhere for the public before they enter, ya don't always find a doorman outside so if you walk inside and you don't fit the dress code or grooming standard you'll be asked to leave by a barman. Over here that means going home, taking a shower and changing into some neater clothes before you come back.
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:39 AM   #199
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Misty, what these guys are talking about is smelling cigarette smoke, not inhaling the actual fumes. Every bar i have ever been to (and i have been to a LOT) has been well ventilated and air conditioned, people smoke like crazy but unless you're rigght on top of the smoker you dont even see any smoke. These whiny non smoking drinkers think if they just smell even the trace of tobacco in the hour or 2 at the bar they will fall over dead from cancer.
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Old 04-07-2004, 09:44 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
Flub, we agree on most things, but definetly NOT this. A city park is PUBLIC LAND, as well as a Public Place. A bar, restaurant, sports stadium, etc... is a Public Place BECAUSE the Public is invited to come in and spend their money. A NON Public Place would be something like a Country Club, a Private Residence, most work places, etc....
Last weekend I went to a bar, had a few drinks and decided to walk to another bar. I was wearing a ball cap, shorts, T-shirt, and sandals. This bar had a sign up saying "No hats, T-shirts, sandals, or shorts." How dare they tell me how to dress in a PUBLIC place. Who the hell do they think they are?
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