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Old 04-01-2004, 04:33 AM   #126
Wildane
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Yes.

Not only this, but 'try and spot a smoker'? Consider how much time a pack-a-day smoker spends sucking on cigarettes.
That part was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I was trying to point out, that there are many, many places a smoker cannot smoke (airports, planes, buses, gov't buildings, as well as privately-owned establishments). Subtlety has never been one of my strong suits.
The reason nobody cared before is because nobody knew that there were significant health risks associated with tobacco smoke. This was the central argument behind the Big Tobacco lawsuit settlements; tobacco companies misled the consumers.
No matter the reason, smoking sections were not created to cater to smokers. How does restricting where they can sit benefit them at all? Every single day there are more and more places where one can't light up, and even when they do light up in their designated areas, they are sneered at. Just look at the intolerance in this thread? Hey, he's smoking at the bus stop, let's beat him up!!

If you've never smoked, please don't comment on the alleged justifications people use to continue to do so. Starting smoking is plain stupid, but then, as a teenager, I did a lot of stupid shit. Quitting smoking is the hardest thing I've had to do. I knew it was bad for my health, but dealing with day-to-day stress coupled with nicotine withdrawals, can be quite overwhelming at times. I already have a somewhat short fuse, but when I quit smoking, I had to take a week's vacation to prevent from biting someone's head off at work.
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:16 AM   #127
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I'm not being facecious Wildane in this post. I just want people to understand and understand others.

I quit in October because I was tired of standing outside in the cold because I didn't want to let smoke near my pregnant girlfriend. I realised that it would always be this way, but that it would be my son, Darian, who would be the reason I was standing outside.

I was lucky in that I wasn't a huge smoker before I quit. I would smoke if I had them but many a time I'd go for a fortnight without lighting up. Sometimes I'd just stop smoking for whole months because I didn't feel like smoking and then would go through 20 Marlboro lights in a few hours if I was drinking.

I know what it's like quitting. I know what type of addiction it is. The problem for me is that when I do go out the tiniest amount of smoke makes me want to light up too and that feeling is nearly unbearable. It is not the mild discomfort of someone who has never smoked. It is a pang that I feel in the tips of my fingers.

So I'm just supposed to accept that and go about my life always feeling that way because addiction is for life. It never goes away, you'll always have that feeling that you'd like just one tug on a cigarette.

I'm not saying they should ban it totally but I do think areas should not only be segregated but screened off. I can catch a smell of a cigarette from 20 meters away indoors, as can every other person who doesn't smoke.

The simple fact is smoke doesn't bother smokers so they don't realise how bad it can be.
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:31 AM   #128
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So I'm just supposed to accept that and go about my life always feeling that way because addiction is for life. It never goes away, you'll always have that feeling that you'd like just one tug on a cigarette.
Basically, yes, you just have to accept it. It's no one else's fault you started in the first place, why condemn them for tempting you? Do we ban the sale of alcohol outside of bars so alcoholics won't be tempted to drink?

For the record, I know exactly how you feel, as I also quit in October (10th). Three years ago, I quit smoking for an entire year, but for some dumb reason, I picked it back up. Hopefully I'll have a little more sense this time.
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Old 04-01-2004, 07:41 AM   #129
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i dont smoke cigarettes i smoke pipes
Fuck this. My stance is revised. Chuk is now officially the Pimp of the Board, dammit, and anyone who says otherwise will be bitch slapped. Pipes are the shit, and I have a new respect for Chuk. Cigars rank slightly lower, because really they are just too damn phallic.

Or something. I had something insightful or such to say but when I read this I just had to comment on my newfound respect for Chuk.
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Old 04-01-2004, 11:11 AM   #130
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This is just disgusting.

If I met some of the non-smokers I've seen spew their trash here, I would revise my kindness policy and blow the smoke right in your faces. You talk about taking away my rights because I smoke and you don't? Fuck you. Eat shit and die. Its my right to do what I want and it's my choice to smoke and I'll do it when and where I'm allowed and I'll fight every last god damn bill or law that says otherwise and you can fuck off if you think for one moment that I'll give you any more of what little freedoms I have left.
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Old 04-01-2004, 01:18 PM   #131
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I've long been convinced that Chuk smoked pipe- the confirmation is humorously gratifying

And ShItlum- funny that you ask non-smokers to eat shit and die given you make us inhale shit that could make us die. Poor baby can't spread known carcinogens around in certain public places Awww- life's so hard buttercup- here's a cookie. Choke on it.
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Old 04-01-2004, 01:34 PM   #132
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If you really do wait at a bus stop, then you inhale much more carbon monoxide from passing cars. Whatcha gonna do, tough guy, threaten them next?

Next y'all will be blaming the smog in LA on cigarette smoke.
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Old 04-01-2004, 01:45 PM   #133
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Is no non-smoker going to ask why they should be able to dictate to someone who owns the private bar/pub runs their business? After all shouldn't the person who puts up the money, runs the place and has the most to lose/gain be the one to decide whether or not to allow people to smoke? Noone forces you to go somewhere where people smoke.
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:39 PM   #134
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/shrug
Nothing wrong with smoking pipes, there are different flavored tobaccos like cherry, chocolate, apple, peach, etc, they make really pleasant odors and are inexpensive. By me a pack of cigs is 7 bucks, 2 ounces of pipe tobacco costs 5 bucks. 2 ounces can last me 2 weeks.

PS
Ive been smoking pipes for 8 years and ive heard all the hahah you suck the meat pipe haha ur teh gayz jokes.
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Old 04-01-2004, 05:17 PM   #135
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Chuk, Keyboard!



God Bless America
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:20 PM   #136
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You talk about taking away my rights because I smoke and you don't? Fuck you. Eat shit and die. Its my right to do what I want and it's my choice to smoke and I'll do it when and where I'm allowed and I'll fight every last god damn bill or law that says otherwise and you can fuck off if you think for one moment that I'll give you any more of what little freedoms I have left.
You are the epitome of selfishness. I'm amazed considering you're the one with the dirty ass habit that has absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:56 PM   #137
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Pipes are cool

When I stayed in the dorms, my roommate, suitemates, and all our friends were smokers (kinda fun riding in an SUV with 5 smokers). They'd try and suck me into smoking cigs with them, but I told them I'd only smoke: pipes, cigars, weed, in that order, but never cigs
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:16 AM   #138
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Is no non-smoker going to ask why they should be able to dictate to someone who owns the private bar/pub runs their business?
Are you allowed to shoot people in your bar because you put up the money?

The answer is no.

Tobacco smoke causes cancer which kills people.

So once it becomes hazardous to another persons health you lose that right and the government has control. Currently the government favours your stance but it might not always be that way.

The fact you own the property has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that you must follow the laws of the land.
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:59 AM   #139
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As for what Flub is saying, A county wide no smoking in any public place went into effect April 1. I live in this county. They were saying on the news this morning that they are going back to the drawing board on the ban.

There is a fairly new dance club and bar that opened up. I don't remember how many hundreds of thousands of dollars the owner spent while building it for a state of the art exhaust system designed specifically for the reason of exhausting cigarette smoke from the building.
Even non smokers were on the news saying that they were never bothered by smoke while in the club.

Knowing that this club and others around like it bring revenue to the County from surrounding counties, they are probably going to amend the bill to allow smoking in restaurants and bars with certain type of exhaust systems installed. From what I understand, this club didn't have designated smoking areas because the ventilation was so state of the art.
I guy I work with is a body builder, non smoker (can't stand smoke) and he says he was never bothered by smoke in that club and wouldn't have a problem if places like that continued to allow smoking.

Sounds fair to me. Smokers can smoke, non smokers won't be bothered by the smoke and nobody should have a reason to complain. There are solutions out there to ensure the rights of all of us.
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Old 04-02-2004, 06:13 AM   #140
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That sound pretty cool Caelie. Any idea how much that ventilation system costs?
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Old 04-02-2004, 06:45 AM   #141
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I'm not sure Maximus. I had the news on like I do every morning to catch the weather and traffic and I just heard something about it that caught my ear so I stood there and watched it a minute.
I'll try to see if there is something in our local paper about it, but it really does sound like this might be a good solution if more business owners are willing to invest in it.
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Old 04-02-2004, 06:55 AM   #142
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Yeah it sure does.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:04 AM   #143
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Kerryn, you want to answer the question now? If you don't want to be around smoke don't go to where people smoke. Instead of doing that you want people who own private property to cater to you. When you have no financial stake in the private property.

And yes, land ownership does play a part in it because a land owner has more at stake than the non-land owner trying to tell the land owner what they can do.

YOU as a non-smoker do not have to goto a bar/pub do you?
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:13 AM   #144
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Tobacco smoke causes cancer which kills people.
Tobacco may cause cancer, its not a given if you use tobacco you WILL get cancer, how many other 'safe' products cause cancer anyway? Cancer if treated doesnt always result in death. IMO you abuse something youll get sick, alcoholic consumption results in cancer and many other harmful or deadly afflictions. The only absolute thing i can see about tobacco is it is habit forming, the little bit i do smoke i can feel the urge to smoke if i go a few days without it.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:21 AM   #145
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Flub, let me expand upon Kerryn's analogy.

Let's say I own a bar. I allow people to bring in weapons and use them as they like; shoot people at random, stab people, whatever. I tell people that they have no right to prevent me from owning such an establishment, because it's my property, and if they don't want to shoot/be shot then they shouldn't visit.

Compulsory participation is what you are advocating. Like it or not, even non-smokers in a densely backed bar with many smokers is participating in the activity. There is a difference in degrees of magnitude, but the fact of the matter is he doesn't want to, and shouldn't have to, participate if he doesn't want to. In my analogy, he'd be the guy who enters the bar with no weapon, but is fair game to get shot at anyway.

We don't even need to get into legality of the act. I may be incorrect, but I am reasonably certain that there is no precedence in any court of law upholding the idea that a public place can exclude based upon participation of an activity. Yes, that's right, public place. A bar is not private property, like it or not. It is licensed by the city/county/state or some similar bureaucracy, and there are certain codes and alws that places of business must adhere to. Your private home is another matter, and the gist of the argument for this is that you aren't inviting people into your home to make a profit, whereas a bar owner is doing just that. Also, you aren't providing a service and categorically excluding someone from that service.

What strikes me as odd is that this line of reasoning does follow discrimination cases based upon race, gender, etc. It isn't identical, no, and I'm not sure if the same rulings would apply to smoking (due to it being a choice, and a part-time activity), but the logic is very similar.

I don't think we even need to get into health risks to puncture your argument.
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:19 AM   #146
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It is against the law to carry a gun into a bar. Why? because it serves alcohol as it's main source of revenue. Unlike say a restraunt. Shooting someone and smoking are not the same thing. You analogy is flawed.

You are incorrect. A bar/pub is a private place. As a matter of fact owners of a bar/pub have the right to refuse admission to anyone at anytime. There are certain codes a bar/pub must use but they do not have anything to deal with who may enter. Only exeption being age.

You non-smokers have failed to say answer the question. As the owner of a private business. A place where people deicide where to go. Why should I have to cater to your will instead of the will of the majority of people who come into my bar.

If you do not want to be around smoke, don't go to a bar that allows people to smoke. Is that so hard?
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:43 AM   #147
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Let's say I own a bar. I allow people to bring in weapons and use them as they like; shoot people at random, stab people, whatever. I tell people that they have no right to prevent me from owning such an establishment, because it's my property, and if they don't want to shoot/be shot then they shouldn't visit.
No matter how you say it, the analogy doesn't work for a very simply reason: shooting people is illegal, smoking around others is not. If you are operating your establishment illegally, whether it be public or private, they have every right to shut you down.
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:45 AM   #148
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As I mentioned in an earlier post, smoking has been banned in Ireland in the last week, in the workplace. The ban was based on a Health and Safety directive. Under current legislation (which is common acroos most countries in the EU and I would imagine, though am by no means certain, in the US) it is the legal obligation of all employers to provide a safe and healthy workplace for all employees.

Environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) in any enclosed environment has been shown to have the potential to increase the health risk to those (smokers and non-smokers) exposed to it. Thus the legislated ban.

While it seems, and in many senses is, draconian, this law was an inevitable extension of current Health and Safety ethos. In most workplaces it is normal to have smoke free environments so it is no big deal. For example, I work for a pharmaceutical company and obviously there is no smoking anywhere on site due to the fire risk (safety). In the same way we have to wear non-static shoes, mobile phones arent allowed and so on. Health and safety are paramount in such an environment.

Where it causes the biggest impact is in pubs and clubs. The employer (bar owner), whether he owns the property or not is under a legal obligation to supply his workers with a safe working environment and thus smoking is now banned. It has nothing directly to do with the customer, percieved social acceptability or pandering to the PC crowd but all to do with the workers safety. So as you can see owining the bar gives you no discretionary rights on whether smoking is allowed on your premises or not.

The Vintner's Federation for a long time have said they have installed adequate ventilation systems in their bars to deal with the ETS, but short of installing the type of HVAC industrial ventialtion systems you will not rid the atmosphere of harmful ETS.

Personally speaking, this is going to be very hard. You can't beat sitting down over a few pints and having a smoke for simple pleasures, but now unless the bar has a beer garden I am going to have to go outside on the street when I want a smoke. Right now all states in the EU are watching very closely to see how this pans out. If it is successful in Ireland I can see it becoming widespread throughout other countries.
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:29 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Wildane
No matter how you say it, the analogy doesn't work for a very simply reason: shooting people is illegal, smoking around others is not.
Not in Ireland, and with any luck, soon the U.S.

Originally Posted by Flub
You are incorrect. A bar/pub is a private place. As a matter of fact owners of a bar/pub have the right to refuse admission to anyone at anytime. There are certain codes a bar/pub must use but they do not have anything to deal with who may enter. Only exeption being age.
Wrong. You cannot categorically exclude someone from a business establishment. Yes, you have the right to refuse service to anyone for personal reasons, but you cannot say "no non-smokers allowed". Don't think there's a loophole; if you are caught refusing "for personal reasons" exclusively non-smokers you are still violating those codes.

I have to look them up to get the exact language they put it in. It's quite applicable here, even though the general idea at the time was to prevent exclusion based on race, or gender, or similar criteria. However, it is not a stretch to apply it here either.

Originally Posted by Flub
It is against the law to carry a gun into a bar. Why? because it serves alcohol as it's main source of revenue. Unlike say a restraunt.
By your own argument, it should be illegal to do anything except buy and drink alcohol in a bar! And someone, a restaurant is different? Please enlighten me as to how a bar and restaurant are not subject to the same laws.

That entire paragraph I quoted above makes no sense. How does alcohol have anything to do with the [il]legality of firearms? Furthermore, how does "main source of revenue" figure into that? And then, restaurants? Either you wrote this while on speed and a bad case of ADD, or you are attempting to make a very obscure and poorly communicated point.

My whole point with the gun analogy is that, though it is a bit farfetched, many non-smokers view it as a similar activity with a difference merely in degrees of severity. They should not have to find a different bar in order to have a drink without someone puffing vile smoke in their face.

Shooting someone and smoking are not the same thing. You analogy is flawed.
Where the fuck is my Captain Obvious picture. Hey Sherlock, thanks for pointing this out to me. You know, I had no idea that blasting someone's head off wasn't the exact same thing as lighting up a cigarette. I feel so much more educated.

It's an analogy, and should be taken only to illustrate (not prove) a point. I expect you to at least have that much of a grasp on logic, or I wouldn't be taking the time writing, and would instead break out the crayons.

I'm the only one making any logical sense here, which is all the scarier because I've caught less than 8 hours of sleep in the past 48.
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Old 04-02-2004, 12:14 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by AresProphet
Wrong. You cannot categorically exclude someone from a business establishment. Yes, you have the right to refuse service to anyone for personal reasons, but you cannot say "no non-smokers allowed". Don't think there's a loophole; if you are caught refusing "for personal reasons" exclusively non-smokers you are still violating those codes.
I ran a bar for over a year. I think I know what I am talking about. You can refuse anyone based on any reason. Even the police and city attorney agreed. It is a private business that is not open to everyone.

Originally Posted by AresProphet
By your own argument, it should be illegal to do anything except buy and drink alcohol in a bar! And someone, a restaurant is different? Please enlighten me as to how a bar and restaurant are not subject to the same laws.
How is telling what the law concerning alcohol and fire arms the same as saying it is illegal to do anything except buy and drink alcohol? Yes, a restaurant is differant. Here is how. A restaurant's main purpose is to serve food. A restaurant can hirer someone below 21, the legal age to drink. A restaurant must also make over half it's money on selling food. Plus it can be open on a Sunday without the use of a special permit. While a bar cannot hirer anyone under the age of 21 and must have a special permit to be open on a Sunday.

Originally Posted by AresProphet
That entire paragraph I quoted above makes no sense. How does alcohol have anything to do with the [il]legality of firearms? Furthermore, how does "main source of revenue" figure into that? And then, restaurants? Either you wrote this while on speed and a bad case of ADD, or you are attempting to make a very obscure and poorly communicated point.
You brought up shooting people in bar. I was pointing out why that would be illegal on several points. One can bring in a loaded cigeratte. See above for differance between bar and restaurant.

Originally Posted by AresProphet
My whole point with the gun analogy is that, though it is a bit farfetched, many non-smokers view it as a similar activity with a difference merely in degrees of severity. They should not have to find a different bar in order to have a drink without someone puffing vile smoke in their face.
Why shouldn't they? They make a choice to go out and drink. The people who run the bar should not have to make special rules for them. If a majority of the people in the bar are smoking why should they have to stop because a non-smoker walked in. Why should'nt the person who owns the bar have the right to decide whether or not people should be allowed to smoke?

Originally Posted by AresProphet
Where the fuck is my Captain Obvious picture. Hey Sherlock, thanks for pointing this out to me. You know, I had no idea that blasting someone's head off wasn't the exact same thing as lighting up a cigarette. I feel so much more educated.
I am glad I was able to help.

Originally Posted by AresProphet
It's an analogy, and should be taken only to illustrate (not prove) a point. I expect you to at least have that much of a grasp on logic, or I wouldn't be taking the time writing, and would instead break out the crayons.
Here is an analogy: A bear shit in the woods. Then wiped his ass with a bunny. Do you grasp the logic? What does that have to do with smoking in a bar? Nothing. And niether did yours.

Originally Posted by AresProphet
I'm the only one making any logical sense here, which is all the scarier because I've caught less than 8 hours of sleep in the past 48.
You do need some sleep if you think you are making sense.

You as a non-smoker make a choice to go to a place where people smoke. Correct? If you know there are going to be people smoking there, and you hate the way it smells and are afraid of the health hazards. Then why do you go? Are you forced to go? Do you not have free will to say no? Or are you a sadist?
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