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Old 03-27-2004, 02:58 PM   #101
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Honestly,
We should also ban reflective sunglasses. Why?
Well, sunshine is known to cause skin cancer. And reflective glasses cause
second hand sunshine to those who are hiding in the shade to avoid the sun.

Vote yes on proposition 368. Ban Sunglasses from any structure within 20 feet!



GOD BLESS AMERICA
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Old 03-27-2004, 03:16 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by cnjmorris
Even pen and paper D&D isn't a good comparison (unless you end up in a game with freaks who insist on wearing the clothing and next thing you know are really trying to summon spirits and stuff).
Oh yeah and dont forget about goign out and sacrificing goats and children! We all KNOW that D&D is the thing that leads to this! Oh yeha and that Rock and Roll stuff also!

/wave Intolerance
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Old 03-27-2004, 04:54 PM   #103
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I wasn't stereotyping. I was going from a personal experience. (If by some strange chance you read this Greg, come back to earth)
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Old 03-29-2004, 03:37 AM   #104
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For the smokers amongst you posting who already feel hard done-by, be grateful you don't live in Ireland!!

Ireland Bans Smoking
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Old 03-29-2004, 03:57 AM   #105
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hehe, well I do Xantharr on both counts (live in Ireland and smoke). This is going to be a major upheaval for a lot of people in this country. Similar to England, Ireland has a very large pub culture, and we all know that smoking goes hand in hand with having a pint. Now they have banned smoking in the workplace, based on a Health and Safety directive. Any place of work that is enclosed is covered under the legislation. So no more smoking in pubs, clubs, restaurants, company cars, no more smoking rooms in offices (my own company installed a bus shelter like structure outside for us smokers).

It will be very strange and the pub owners have been fighting it for a while saying it will ruin them, but I think that after a period of adjustment it will be no big deal. Even as a smoker I am all for people giving up and this will have that effect.

As for the rest of Europe, I reckon they are sitting back and watching how things go in Ireland, and if it takes off they will follow suit. At the end of the day I do not think they will have any choice as the Health and Safety legislation it is based on comes from an EU directive.

Anyway the weather was nice today so I didnt mind having to go out to our new bus shelter.
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Old 03-29-2004, 04:23 AM   #106
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/light up
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/light up again

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Old 03-29-2004, 04:47 AM   #107
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But that "right" shall not infringe on my "rights", is my main point.
And this is why both sides must compromise. Smokers have to sit in smoking sections; that is their concession. A non-smoker's concession is NOT sitting in those sections if they are bothered by cigarette smoke. Can't be all get and no give. Sure, you have the "right" to sit anywhere you damn well want to, but you give up the "right" to complain about cigarette smoke if you choose to sit in an area designated for smokers.
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Old 03-29-2004, 09:56 AM   #108
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In Washington State, non-smoking bars do just about as much business as those bars that allow smoking. I don't really enjoy the smell of cigarettes while I am eating and so I choose not to sit in the smoking section of a restaurant, even though I smoke. In my car, I always ask my friends if they mind me smoking, even though it is my car. None of my friends smoke, and I ask in order to be polite. If even one says they mind, I will not light up until I am out of the car.

By the same token, my friends are very tolerant of me smoking. When we go to restaurants and the waiter or waitress asks if we prefer smoking or non-smoking, they always look to me to answer. I try my hardest not to smoke around non-smoking members of my family, and I always stand a bit away from my non-smoking friends. Generally, they follow me though, to keep me in whatever conversation they're having at the time.

I believe that banning smoking everywhere is just poor taste. Smokers have rights, too, and if a restaurant or bar wishes to allow their patrons to smoke, they should be allowed to. There are bars and restaurants, many of them, that do not allow smoking. The bars and restaurants I frequent that do allow smoking are very well ventilated, so that non-smokers aren't bothered too much by it.

If you start taking away my rights, you're no better than a fascist. It is rather like me telling you that you can't eat in my restaurant because you have blonde hair, or brown eyes, or because you have a New York or Southern accent. You can hide your accent, dye your hair, or wear colored contact lenses if you want to eat in my restaurant, but if you don't, you're not allowed to come in. Don't like it? Tough.
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Old 03-29-2004, 01:32 PM   #109
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so that non-smokers aren't bothered too much by it
Why should they be bothered by it at all. We aren't talking about music which annoys, we are talking about something that can directly effect health.

Putting aside lungs, and other dangers known or not known... I can personally tell you that I am allergic to the smoke and can get insane headaches from it. My father is worse, he will always get a headache. When I say I am allergic I base that on what others have told me.. not on clinical diagnosis. I can tell you though that if I breath menthol smoke I can black out. While I did have some fun with that in high school it became no longer fun real quick when the headaches started developing.
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:50 PM   #110
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Wow- Catcen, our resident Ned Flanders, was a punk stoner as a kid. Who knew!?
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Old 03-29-2004, 06:11 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by cnjmorris
Why should they be bothered by it at all. We aren't talking about music which annoys, we are talking about something that can directly effect health.
As a smoker, it's hard for me to believe that there are actually that many inconsiderate smokers out there. We're probably more aware of where we light up than you are. We probably pay more attention to who's a nonsmoker around us than you do to who's a smoker.

You guys want to make it sound like everywhere you walk or sit you're surrounded by this cloud of cigarette smoke that follows you around. I can promise you it's not like that. If you smoked, you would know this just isn't true. You guys have miles and miles of smoke free area to walk around in while we are always on a seek and find mission to find that one little smoking area somewhere. That's cool and I can live with that. I don't fight the smoking bans. Maybe one day they will outlaw cigarettes and I will be forced to quit seeing how I lack the will power to do it on my own.

For now, it's pretty much like this. I will gladly keep your area smoke free as I always do, but don't think for a minute that once you step into my little 2x2 area where I'm allowed to smoke that I will make concessions for you. Like it or not, until futher notice from our government, smoking is my right. You can say all you want that it's not a right, but it is. It's a legal freedom at this time.

When you choose to sit in the booth next to the smoking section, or you choose to walk outside any public place and talk on your cell phone in or near my smoking area, I have no pity on you. When you do things of that nature you are just looking for something to bitch about.
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Old 03-29-2004, 06:24 PM   #112
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Im the same way. I get nauseous and develope headaches around tabacco smoke.
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Old 03-29-2004, 09:04 PM   #113
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I missed this one:

Maximus Faticus said - "That has to be one of the dumbest arguments in a while Misty."
Yeh, exaggerated(sp?) language.

Consider car maintenance and fuel costs, exhaust emissions, road fatalities, parking infringements, traffic violations, and accident insurance.

Legitimate advantages of the modern automobile: transportation and trade.

There's the bicycle, no stable costs, self maintainable, environmentally friendly. It is a legitimate means of transportation and gets you fit too. Those are the basic points.
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Old 03-30-2004, 05:58 AM   #114
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An easy way to look at it is it takes about 1 day to go as far as you can in less then 2 hours in a car.

Would you ride a bike to work if it took you 2 hours, or even 1 hour.
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Old 03-30-2004, 10:27 PM   #115
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Its getting much worse, cant smoke inside now cant even smoke outside on the beach.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115692,00.html

California Cities Ban Smoking at the Beach

Wednesday, March 31, 2004

LOS ANGELES It's illegal in the office, in bars and restaurants and in many public parks. And now, smoking is being outlawed at the beach in several California cities.



Santa Monica (search), San Clemente and Solana Beach have banned lighting up on the sand. Advocates cite health hazards and problems with litter as the main reasons behind the ban. But opponents say smokers are being unfairly targeted.

Still, five more seaside cities are set to adopt similar restrictions because they don't want to be inundated by smokers and their butts.

"The smokers still have opportunities to smoke," said Glenn Maddalon of the American Lung Association (search). "This is a public area that we're trying to protect for the public and protect against the harmful effects of secondhand smoke."

Smoker John Dopilka said he understands the aversion non-smokers have to cigarettes, but feels like smokers are being slowly stamped out.

"They're picking on the smokers and I understand that, and I'm a smoker. I don't like to mess with other people and blow smoke at them and all that," he said. "But also at the same time you have to let us have a place. We're outside, where else are you going to go?"

If they get caught lighting up, smokers could be fined $250. But some smokers say there's an easy solution: creating 'smoking beaches' along the lines of nude beaches and dog-friendly beaches.
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Old 03-31-2004, 04:14 AM   #116
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This is a public area that we're trying to protect for the public and protect against the harmful effects of secondhand smoke
That is such fucking bullshit. Indoors, I could see people trying to protect others from secondhand smoke, but outdoors? For you to see any ill effects of secondhand smoke at the beach, everyone else but you would have to be smoking and constantly blowing it in your face. It's absurd the lengths some will go to. Even though I've smoked half my life, I don't like the way it smells, but they seriously need to stop infringing on the rights of smokers or make it fucking illegal altogether. Then, and only then, would you have a right to whine.
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Old 03-31-2004, 06:50 AM   #117
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If you get onto a crowded beach, one fucker could throw up enough smoke so 50 or so people could smell it. How would you like it if some kid broke stink bomb a few feet away from you? That's not even toxic.

The main reason they are banning it is because of the litter though.
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Old 03-31-2004, 06:58 AM   #118
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For you people who are allergic to cigarette smoke, you are probably allergic to numerous other things too. Ever heard of Flonaise? It works wonders and yes, it works on cigarette smoke too
You don't have to go around with headaches.
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:56 AM   #119
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Facts first.

Over here in the UK, smoking has been banned in a number of public places such as shopping malls, restaurants, public transport, sporting grounds etc.

People whinged and moaned but eventually got used to the idea.



Certain pubs have had smoking banned as a trial.

Takings fell dramatically in the first few weeks but rose again some time later to higher levels. It is surmised that many pubs are losing smoking customers but replacing them with a larger number of non-smoking customers when they finally find a pub where they don't have to breathe others peoples smoke.

One would guess that somewhere in that area some guy has a sign outside his pub that says "SMOKING ALLOWED" and he's making a fortune. It's probably knee deep to the bar.



Opinions.

Smoking to piss people off is pathetic. Taking enjoyment in the fact that you smoking is pissing people off is also pathetic but characteristic of the people making those statements.

I smoked till October but never in all my time smoking did I ever take offence if someone asked me to put my cigarette out because it was bothering them. Never did I decide it was my civil liberty to make them uncomfortable.

So on one hand you have people who believe they have the right to smoke wherever the fuck they like, and other people who believe they have the right to fresh air. Seems all you really have is the civil right to not give a shit about anybody except yourself.

For years I smoked though and even though I was polite I didn't understand why it bothered other people, much like many people don't find their own body odour offensive. Yet I was stood behind a guy at the hole in the wall the other day who was happily tugging away at a cigarette. Draft of wind carried enough into my face to be severely discomfiting. Trust me when I say it does effect people more then you know.

I'm not advocating smoking bans outside and I know the guy in front of me didn't mean to cause offence but I just want people to know that it doesn't just dissipate into the atmosphere immediately.

On another note some bastard threw a cigarette butt out of his window a few years ago and it must have caught in the grill of my car melting away some of the surround enough that it had to be replaced.
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Old 03-31-2004, 08:21 AM   #120
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People who talk about how smoking should be banned in bars because of this and that are missing one very important point. I, as a bar/pub (for you Kerryn) owner, take all the risk of owning/operating that bar. I am the one who must make a living off the bar/pub. I am the one who has his money/life invested in the bar/pub.

So with me taking all the risks. Why should I not be allowed to let people smoke in my place of business? In my private property? Who are you non-smokers, who have no money invested in my business, who are not forced to come into my business, get off telling me that I cannot allow people to smoke in my property I own/maintain?
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Old 03-31-2004, 08:48 AM   #121
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I cannot say. It's one of the areas I chose not to put in my opinions section.

Over here due to the pub culture we have pubs tend to be very full on a Friday night. There is nowhere I can stand where I don't have to deal with smoke. That's a shame really.

At the end of the day you should have the right to make your bar a smoking area. Smokers should have the right to smoke whilst having a drink and therefore everyone is happy. Except that is for the non-smokers who still have to put up with potentially dangerous second hand smoke if they're to indulge themselves in a night out. Can you say that's fair?

Can you say that your bar is big enough and well ventilated enough that if you designated certain sections of the bar as non-smoking, that they still wouln't get smoke drafting over?

Can you say that it is fair or that it is right?

Smokers represent the minority of the population and yet they are the ones being catered to.
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:01 AM   #122
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Smokers represent the minority of the population and yet they are the ones being catered to.
Give me a break! You think they added smoking sections for smokers? NO! They put them in because of the NON-smokers. Before that, you could smoke anywhere you damn well wanted to. You know what? I want you to say that to my face. I want you to hop on the bus to the airport, get on a plane and fly it right over here, then take a cab to the government building where I work and tell me smokers are the ones being catered to. Now, while you're doing all that, try and spot a smoker.
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:20 AM   #123
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Yes, it is fair. Noone one forces you to go out. If you make the choice to go out then you must deal with the smokers. If you don't want to deal with smoker either 1) go to a bar/pub where smoking is not allowed 2) start your own bar/pub and you can decide the rules.

It all comes down to a choice. Do you want to go to a bar/pub? Then you have to deal with smokers. Don't like it. Don't go out.

Now, here is a question for you, why are people who have no financial ties to a bar/pub allowed to dictate to the business owner whether or not he can allow smokers inside his/her private place of business? Is it fair to that bar/pub owner who has put his/her money into that business? Shouldn't the owner have more rights than anyone else when it comes to how thier business is run?
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Old 04-01-2004, 03:52 AM   #124
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Give me a break! You think they added smoking sections for smokers? NO! They put them in because of the NON-smokers. Before that, you could smoke anywhere you damn well wanted to. You know what? I want you to say that to my face. I want you to hop on the bus to the airport, get on a plane and fly it right over here, then take a cab to the government building where I work and tell me smokers are the ones being catered to. Now, while you're doing all that, try and spot a smoker.
No.

The point is valid; smokers are (by far) less than 50% of the population. Not only this, but 'try and spot a smoker'? Consider how much time a pack-a-day smoker spends sucking on cigarettes. It isn't enough that, with only 15 minutes or so of contact, you'll ever have a chance of knowing unless you ask it forthright.

Non-smokers are not being 'catered' to by any means, anyway. The reason nobody cared before is because nobody knew that there were significant health risks associated with tobacco smoke. This was the central argument behind the Big Tobacco lawsuit settlements; tobacco companies misled the consumers.

Now that we are more enlightened, we understand that smokers should be the ones to sacrifice some of their liberties for a privelege. Conditionally, of course; only so long as he's smoking a cigarette does he need to do anything special (like stand in a different area). Nobody with half a brain will deny that smoking is harmful. The justification for the act is something like 'we all die eventually', or 'but it makes me feel good in the short-term'.

Fine, have your reasons, whatever, but it would be a grievous error to assume the general public agrees with you.

I hope this post is coherent. I haven't slept in 24 hours, nor will I for the next 12.
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:00 AM   #125
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'try and spot a smoker'? Consider how much time a pack-a-day smoker spends sucking on cigarettes.
1 cigarette takes about 5-7 minutes to smoke (i dont smoke cigarettes i smoke pipes so i dont know for sure)? with 20 cigarettes to a pack, over 16 hour waking cycle is what, about 1 cigarette an hour? How many hours do you spend in a bar? 1 or 2? did those 2 cigarettes in a large ventilated air conditioned bar do you any harm ?
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