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Old 03-24-2004, 05:59 PM   #1
Maximus Faticus
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Default Spain; burning bridges.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4590619/

Spain's prime minister elect is doing a good job at pissing off the US.

MADRID, Spain - Colin Powell was fuming. The U.S. Secretary of State had been kept waiting for more than 30 minutes for his turn to meet José Luis Rodrguez Zapatero, Spain's prime minister elect.
For a nation obsessed with protocol and symbolic manifestations of power, Mr. Zapatero's decision to meet the French president before the US secretary of state was accorded great significance.
In the event, Mr. Zapatero's meeting with Mr. Chirac was cut short as Mr.Powell threatened to cancel his appointment. The meeting between Mr. Zapatero and the US envoy lasted less than 15 minutes. According to US officials traveling with Mr. Powell, both sides stated their positions on Iraq and "agreed to keep the dialogue open".
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:09 AM   #2
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Sorry, but that article made me chuckle. So Colin Powell was kept waiting a while.

/Sarcasm on

Does this mean that Spain joins the Axis of Evil because they won't jump as soon as the US clicks it's fingers?

/Sarcasm off

Admittedly it probably wasn't good for US-Spanish relations (or even good manners), but I'm sure Mr Powell will get over his 30 minute wait soon enough...

The item from the article that interested me most, however was this:

Policymakers within the Spanish Socialist party are floating the idea of redeploying Spanish troops from Iraq to Afghanistan.
I think it would be great if Spain actually end up doing that. Deploying troops to actually fight terrorism, rather than have them waste their time in Iraq cleaning up somebody else's mess.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:41 AM   #3
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economically who can help spain out more or who HAS done more for spain.

France, or the U.S., sure as shit not the french. Sadly there are alot of people in the U.S. that want us to go the route of europe and join their damn EU. But damn them I say. Isn't it funny that Europe wants us out of Iraq which was fought for various reason and all that jazz, But is more than willing to sacrifice thousands of people in kosovo just because of some religiious tiff. Its fine adn dandy to open up a can of U.S. whoop ass on some poor religious nut, but do anything else and you are condemend to hell.

I think its time Europe got off their ass and fix their own backyard. Yeah, start the flame war, our economy is in the crapper but not because of what bush has done so far we're still reeling from the dot.com bust. It was fine to ship labor jobs overseas but you computer jockeys get your job thrown to india and now all of a sudden you are PISSED OFF.

In short, europe has always been a fucked up place to live and will always be. We tried the isolation thing once but what happend World War II. So every nation in the world decided when we entered that the U.S. is the supreme authority. Look at the U.N. it has absolutely no teeth without U.S. funds and support, but alas they are responsible for more american soldier deaths than you would like to know.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:42 AM   #4
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Does this mean that Spain joins the Axis of Evil because they won't jump as soon as the US clicks it's fingers?
Nahh..just means their true Continental European uselessness is showing through.
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:07 AM   #5
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If Europe is so ‘useless’ why was the US going to such great lengths to garner its support for the invasion of Iraq? Why are the US Administration and the US people so annoyed at Spain’s apparent decision to pull troops out of Iraq? Why is the US administration and Tony Blair still trying to dissuade Spain from taking such a course of action? Why does the US still use European military resources (troops, airfields etc) for its campaigns?

Seems that the US went to an awful lot of trouble to get these ‘useless’ nations onboard with their own plans. Doesn’t really make a lot of sense when you put it like that, does it?

Also, each country within Europe has own opinions on terrorism, the Iraq war and the US, so you can’t really tar them all with the same brush.

Replies like that only make you come across like a spoiled child throwing its toys out of crib when it can’t get its own way.
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:52 AM   #6
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If Europe is so ‘useless’ why was the US going to such great lengths to garner its support
So we could squeeze a little money out of them. We certainly don't need their troops or sub-par military technology. Just looking to get them to foot their share of the UN bill for once...which of course most of them dodged in typical European fashion...
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Old 03-25-2004, 06:35 AM   #7
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THe Europeans are great allies to have. That's why it sucks when one of them turns their back to us, and then gives us the finger.

Why does the US still use European military resources (troops, airfields etc) for its campaigns?
Aren't those our airfields in Europe? As in they are considered US soil?

I think it would be great if Spain actually end up doing that. Deploying troops to actually fight terrorism, rather than have them waste their time in Iraq cleaning up somebody else's mess.
I thought the same thing when I saw that. Except the cleaning up someone else's mess bit. They helped attack Iraq, so it is their mess too. Also if you want to call peacekeeping, "cleaning up somebody else's mess," so be it.
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:20 AM   #8
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Regarding the airfields issue; it may be different for other countries, but RAF airbases in the UK are definitely ‘UK Soil’ and have been used by the USAF, along with radar facilities and so forth.

Not that it’s my intention to flame, but I would call the current occupation of Iraq “someone else’s” mess. It was US conceived, US lead and arguably perpetrated for US benefit. (I say that because I cannot think of one reason why Europe would attack Iraq. Weapons of Mass destruction that have yet to appear can hardly be described as a threat to Europe).

As for peacekeeping, I personally regard that as a different issue altogether and would agree that it is a world-wide responsibility. I do not equate invading a sovereign country for a presidents’ idiosyncratic / flimsily supported reasons ‘peacekeeping’ at all.

In closing, I truthfully hope that this (the Spanish / US rift) blows over very quickly. Like it or not, if we are going to win the ‘war on terror’, Europe and the US are going to have tolerate the fact that the parties involved have *very* different views on the occupation of Iraq and just get down to business tackling the real enemy.
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:49 AM   #9
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It was US conceived, US lead and arguably perpetrated for US benefit.
Wrong again. All I have to say is "1441". Read it, understand it, observe who voted for it..and deal with it.
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:50 AM   #10
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(I say that because I cannot think of one reason why Europe would attack Iraq. Weapons of Mass destruction that have yet to appear can hardly be described as a threat to Europe).
And cities in Europe would be easier targets to strike. Just make an overland journey from the Middle East to Paris, drop a dirty bomb, and *boom*. Bye-bye.
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:11 AM   #11
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The majority of Europe's Oil comes from middle east, the majority of America's oil comes from South America. Hrmm.
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:43 AM   #12
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"Wrong again. All I have to say is "1441". Read it, understand it, observe who voted for it..and deal with it."

Take your own advice Trith. 1441 gave no UN mandate to attack Iraq.
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Old 03-25-2004, 11:27 AM   #13
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I've read 1441, thank you, Trith. Basically it offers 'consequences' if Iraq does not fully comply with weapons inspections and requests for information regarding their weapons and programs.

We now know that a blueprint for the creation of a global Pax Americana was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice-president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), Jeb Bush (George Bush's younger brother) and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences, was written in September 2000 by the neoconservative think tank, Project for the New American Century (PNAC).
When faced with factors like that, I'm unconvinced of the '1441' argument.

Also, when you say that I am 'wrong' in my previous post, it wasn't actually the leadership of the US who pressed for military action against Iraq? It wasn't the leadership of the US who lobbied other countries to participate? And it wasn't the US leadership who commanded the initial offensive and is now overseeing the current occupation?

If not, then who?

As for suggestions that Europe didn't want to fight Iraq because of oil supplies. I'm sure the average European / Brit in the street couldn't really care where their oil came from. But seeing as the issue was raised...

The overriding motivation for this political smokescreen is that the US and the UK are beginning to run out of secure hydrocarbon energy supplies. By 2010 the Muslim world will control as much as 60% of the world's oil production and, even more importantly, 95% of remaining global oil export capacity. As demand is increasing, so supply is decreasing, continually since the 1960s.

This is leading to increasing dependence on foreign oil supplies for both the US and the UK. The US, which in 1990 produced domestically 57% of its total energy demand, is predicted to produce only 39% of its needs by 2010. A DTI minister has admitted that the UK could be facing "severe" gas shortages by 2005. The UK government has confirmed that 70% of our electricity will come from gas by 2020, and 90% of that will be imported. In that context it should be noted that Iraq has 110 trillion cubic feet of gas reserves in addition to its oil.
An old source, but still relevant
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Old 03-25-2004, 11:45 AM   #14
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That's exactly right. It was the US (who just happened to be the only nation out of all the ones who originally voted for 1441) with enough testicular fortitude to finally enforce a resolution. Full props of course to the UK, Australia, and a host of other nations for waking up and realizing what had to be done. Minor props to Spain for having enough guts to begin the process..it's a damn shame they fell back into full "French Apathy" mode at the end though..

The overriding motivation for this political smokescreen is that the US and the UK are beginning to run out of secure hydrocarbon energy supplies
That's a lovely fairy tale, but has already been proven 100% false. In fact if we can ever get the owl-fucking Democrats out of the way we will have access to huge reserves of obtainable oil, enough to dramaticaly reduce our dependance on OPEC by nearly 60%. ANWAR here we come!!! We just need a few more tree huggers to die from drug induced strokes or fall out of trees and we should be set.
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:10 PM   #15
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*Laughs*

And I suppose the whole 'Hole in the ozone layer' is a myth too?

Nice attitude. Keep burnin' baby!
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:12 PM   #16
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You mean the one that has closed nearly 22% since the measurements in the 1990's? Yeah..that one then...
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:46 PM   #17
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Guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue, too Trith!

Satellite measurements show that the rate of decline in ozone amount in the upper stratosphere is slowing, however the total ozone amount is still declining. The small size of the 2002 ozone hole was nothing to do with any reduction in ozone depleting chemicals and it will be a decade or more before we can unambiguously say that the ozone hole is recovering
British Antartic Survey
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:48 PM   #18
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You mean this one:

http://www.wmo.ch/web/Press/Press697.pdf

Read more at: http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/met/jds/ozone/o3facts.html

Is the ozone hole recovering? Some reports in the media suggest that the ozone layer over Antarctica is now recovering. This message is a little confused. Recent measurements at surface monitoring stations show that the loading of ozone destroying chemicals at the surface has been dropping since about 1994 and is now about 6% down on that peak. The stratosphere lags behind the surface by several years and the loading of ozone depleting chemicals in the ozone layer is at or near the peak. Satellite measurements show that the rate of decline in ozone amount in the upper stratosphere is slowing, however the total ozone amount is still declining. The small size of the 2002 ozone hole was nothing to do with any reduction in ozone depleting chemicals and it will be a decade or more before we can unambiguously say that the ozone hole is recovering. This assumes that the decline in ozone depleting chemicals continues and that there are no other perturbations to the ozone layer, such as might be caused by a massive volcanic eruption or Tunguska like event. It will be the middle of this century or beyond before the ozone hole ceases to appear over Antarctica. What we saw in 2002 is just one extreme in the natural range of variation in the polar stratosphere and is the equivalent of an extreme in 'stratospheric weather'. By contrast the 'weather' in 2003 moved to the opposite extreme and we saw one of the largest ozone holes on record.
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:49 PM   #19
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Bah, Xanth beat me to it
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Old 03-26-2004, 04:08 AM   #20
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All of the airfields in Europe belong to the country in which they are located.

Some, a small minority, are termed US soil due to agreements. However if you think for one moment that those would remain "US Soil" if the Spanish and French asked you to leave you are an idiot.

It's not some little area the US invaded and managed to hold onto. It's an area you've been afforded by the government of that country.

Originally Posted by Veo
And cities in Europe would be easier targets to strike. Just make an overland journey from the Middle East to Paris, drop a dirty bomb, and *boom*. Bye-bye.
Missing the point. Yes it would be easier for Middle Eastern terrorists to bomb Paris then Washington but there's no motivation. They want to blow up parts of England, Spain, and America because they were the chief proponents of the war. And since the British public were vastly against the war in Iraq it is indeed "somebody elses mess".

Trith, as always you're arguing with people who are posting facts supported by links to the documents from which they came and you are proven wrong over and over again. You haven't provided one bit of support for any of your arguments in years.

P.S. First thing that the US did in the war in Afghanistan was to assure that the Scots Dragoons and the Lancers and 1500 Spanish troops were available to clear out the caves once all the bombs ran out.
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Old 03-26-2004, 04:33 AM   #21
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in523785.shtml

http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories...2/ap_48576.asp

http://abc.net.au/ra/newstories/RANe...ies_510447.htm

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1004/p03s01-uspo.html

You guys make this too easy. Kerryn..consider yourself educated now. Anything else you need just make sure to let me know, I'm always happy to shed a little light on the miserable lives of the blissfully ignorant, or even those who chose self-imposed stupidity if necessary.
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Old 03-26-2004, 04:56 AM   #22
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http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...625093330.html

You may want to research and link the more recent findings. We can all link what we can to show one thing or another.
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Old 03-26-2004, 08:32 AM   #23
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Default Ok some answers from Spain

Powell:

As per normal protocol each leader was budgeted 15 minutes to visit the incoming prime minister. (The orginal reason for all the state visits was the funeral of the terrorist attacks)

Mr. Powell was orginally scheduled to visit before the French President.

He was told that there was a change in schedule and that the French President would go before him. (I don't have a problem with that as in politcal circles the French President ranks above a Sec. of State). What ticked him off was that Zap talked to the French for 45 minutes! and kept Powell waiting outside. Basically in the politcal world that is seen as a slap in the face. Zap has said that he wants to mend fences with France and Germany..he spent 15 minutes with Germany and 13 minutes with the U.S....but 45 with France..figure that one...)

As for troops going from Iraq to Afganistan his plan is to pull 1400 out of Iraq and send 100 to Afganistan to work in the HQ there. (Seem fair?)

Talking to the Spanish soldiers I work with, most seem to think Zap painted himself into a corner and they do not think the Spanish troops will be withdrawn....but that could be just soldier talk.

You see the socialists might have actually hurt themselves in this election.... because he thought he was going to lose Zap made a lot of over the top promises that he thought he would never have to keep. Now that he has won he is finding out he cannot fulfill all of them..It will be an intresting year in Spain.


Btw Zap is also having to fight the perception that he is weak of terrorism already. There is a general perception here in Europe that Spain pulling out of the Iraqi conflict will embolden the terrorists and make them beleive they can change any democratic government. They have even begun to say that in their outlets to the press. How can Zap do exactly as he says and then play right into the hands of what the terrorist are saying.

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Old 03-26-2004, 09:12 AM   #24
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Sounds like he's just a brown nosing pussy if you ask me.
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:50 AM   #25
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Check the dates on all those article links Trith... they are all out of date. Anyhow, I have found the true cause of ozone holes and will collect my Nobel prize shortly.
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