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Old 03-24-2004, 02:10 PM   #1
Sarrin Kanth
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Default Can this work?

If you close down trade to other countries. Then you restructure the way we are paid and how much people make. Also, have the government produce as much cash as they want and decide the value of the currency. So the money would be based on what officials thought, rather than on comparison to other countries. Everyone would be the employee of the government. Everyone would get at least 80,000 dollars. If you are a doctor, you will make 150,000 minimum.etc..

The government would have an unlimited cash fund. Everyone would be employed. Our borders would be more secure because everyone who doesnt have a job right now would protect the borders.

Again, there would be enough cash to fund research of new ways to produce energy. No one will starve. If you have stock right now, the government would buy your stock.

We wont need petroleum because we can use vegitable oil.

We will be able to afford to run missions in outer space without worrying of the cost.

we will be able to produce the most sophisticated types of technology.

everyone would be able to afford harvard.

Our country would advance well beyond any nations of our time.

edit: no taxes because our government would have unlimited cash and be in debt to no one.

edit: i need your help to make this idea flawless, so challenge this idea as well as you can. Also, if you would like to help out, i need to know which resources we get from overseas.

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Old 03-24-2004, 03:00 PM   #2
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Default Let's Punch Some Holes in the Theory:

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
If you close down trade to other countries. Then you restructure the way we are paid and how much people make. Also, have the government produce as much cash as they want and decide the value of the currency.
What hapens when you travel over seas? How would currency exchanges be handled if we get to decide how much our currency is worth?

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
So the money would be based on what officials thought, rather than on comparison to other countries. Everyone would be the employee of the government.
200+ million government employees? Ever had to go to the DMV? Do you want every worker like that? Are you going to create the jobs? How do you get that many people to work? What if I don't like the job I get? Can someone get fired?

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
Everyone would get at least 80,000 dollars. If you are a doctor, you will make 150,000 minimum.etc..
So a kid out of high school makes more than half what someone who spent 8 years in school? That sound a little off to you?

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
The government would have an unlimited cash fund. Everyone would be employed. Our borders would be more secure because everyone who doesnt have a job right now would protect the borders.
Having a job is not the same has being compentant (sp?) at that job. Who is to say that they would want to be a border guard? If they don't what happens? How do you make someone who doesn't want to work, work?

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
Again, there would be enough cash to fund research of new ways to produce energy. No one will starve. If you have stock right now, the government would buy your stock.
Who is to say that would even happen? It might take decades to do that. What to do until the mean time?

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
We wont need petroleum because we can use vegitable oil.
See above

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
We will be able to afford to run missions in outer space without worrying of the cost.
See above

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
we will be able to produce the most sophisticated types of technology.
Or people might try to take over the US because they have the technology and want to use it for their own means.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
everyone would be able to afford harvard.
Then why work. One could be a student forever.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
Our country would advance well beyond any nations of our time.
Our country would be not last long. Communism is not a viable economy.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
no taxes because our government would have unlimited cash and be in debt to no one.
How would we pay off the debt we owe before doing this?

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
i need your help to make this idea flawless, so challenge this idea as well as you can. Also, if you would like to help out, i need to know which resources we get from overseas.
Not possible.
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:28 PM   #3
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+What hapens when you travel over seas? How would currency exchanges be handled if we get to decide how much our currency is worth?

Don't travel over seas


+200+ million government employees? Ever had to go to the DMV? Do you want every worker like that? Are you going to create the jobs? How do you get that many people to work? What if I don't like the job I get? Can someone get fired?

Your Boss stays the same. No, it won't be like the DMV. Yes people can get fired, but they will have to find a new job. Job slot distribution is determined by the Census. It is illegal not to work, unless you are disabled. If you don't like the job you get, you either get another one, or wait for more openinings elsewhere. But how can you not like it with a guaranteed minimum of 80k a year?

+So a kid out of high school makes more than half what someone who spent 8 years in school? That sound a little off to you?

No, a kid out of high school will make 80k minimum. Someone who goes to college for 8 years will make a around 150k to 350k

+Having a job is not the same has being compentant (sp?) at that job. Who is to say that they would want to be a border guard? If they don't what happens? How do you make someone who doesn't want to work, work?

If you dont want to work, then you either beg or starve. Who would turn down 80k to work in a factory?

+Our country would be not last long. Communism is not a viable economy.

This is not exactly communism. You still get your necessities indirectly rather than directly from your labor. Why can't this last long? Who is going to want to stop it and for what reasons?

+How would we pay off the debt we owe before doing this?

We won't have to at all. Not monetarily. If the country accepts food and items in return for our debt than fine. But if they do not accept that, then screw them.

+Then why work. One could be a student forever

If you don't work, then you dont get money. It's up to your parents of whether or not they want you leeching off them forever.
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:41 PM   #4
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While you're at it, please re-write the law of supply and demand and the law of gravity, kthx.
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:50 PM   #5
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When the government creates money out of thin air, it is called inflation. If there are no taxes, and everyone makes at least 80k per year, the inflation would be absurd. Think Germany between the two world wars.

The other thing is that we don't produce a lot of physical stuff, other than food here. We could if we wanted to, but don't. So why not?

Turns out that it is more effecient for us to make certain stuff and sell it to others for high margins. We can then buy low margin things from them. (This is the simple version of "trade defecits" and "international money markets")

Cutting trade wouldn't be in our advantage. It would effectively drop our gross national product as we moved from highly effecient industries to less effecient ones.

So, yeah, it wouldn't work. Sorry.
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:04 PM   #6
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+When the government creates money out of thin air, it is called inflation.

under my plan there is no such thing as inflation. therefore, when money is created out of thin air, the goods in the country do not decline in price.

+Turns out that it is more effecient for us to make certain stuff and sell it to others for high margins.

under my plan, the national reserve is limitless, therefore there is no need to sell items to other countries for money.

+(This is the simple version of "trade defecits" and "international money markets")Cutting trade wouldn't be in our advantage. It would effectively drop our gross national product as we moved from highly effecient industries to less effecient ones.

Under my plan, there are no trade deficits nor international money markets.
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:08 PM   #7
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We have way too much government as it is...
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:12 PM   #8
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So each state will handle its own with producing the currency and paying it out.
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:35 PM   #9
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I guess I wasn't clear about how inflation works.

Inflation is the response of people to an increase in the amount of money in circulation. There isn't an Office of Inflation in the government that just decides how much inflation we'll have this year.

If you have an expanding currency, the only way to stop inflation is to abolish private property, so you get back to strict communism no matter which tricks you use to hide it.


Hmm. Might have missed the mark on trade too.

Trade isn't detrimental, or we wouldn't do it. If we stopped trading, it would hurt our national production.

Virtually everything we do here in any large scale is high effeciency work, meaning that we get a lot of value per hour of labor. We trade these goods to other countries for lower effenciency items (the other countries turn around and do the same trick down the line). What this means is that we get more value for our labor than we would if we did all the shit work ourselves.

Does that help any?
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:34 PM   #10
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but if we all agreed to throw out the idea of inflation... it wouldnt effect us. If we had unlimited resources, wouldnt we be able to give ourselves the highest value of goods as possible without ripping anyone off because we would have unlimited cash.
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:46 PM   #11
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Honestly at first I was going to laugh at the sillyness of your idea, but it is geared toward an optimistic viewpoint and I suppose it isn't really that silly; just based on a flawed/misguided assumption.

If we had unlimited resources
And there is it; the most fundamental principle in Economics is resource scarcity and unlimited wants.

In the most vauge sense possible, what you said would work if we had unlimited resources- and presumably ease of extraction/conversion of those resources into, at the minimum, the staples of a comfortable survival.

However, since we don't have unlimited resources (or at least nothing close to that) and conversion of resources still takes time (i.e., people working their whole lives) there is a need for money as a means of incentives and resource/conversion trade.

I'm going to make a comparison to Star Trek: The Next Generation. If you've watched the show or can imagine what I'm talking about it should make some sense hopefully.

It is never specifically said, but there seems to be an assumption that the Federation can provide every single person the basic needs of life: food, water, shelter etc and in a comfortable enough life style. This means they have nearly unlimited resources + the technology to instantly/efficiently convert those resources into the basic needs of life.

There is no such thing as money to those people, they don't get paid for doing what they do. There is no need for it, because the basics are provided and all that's really left is in the intellectual sense. (Now, that's not entierly true. Special/unique resources would still be around in different forms, but they have intrinsic values instead of imaginary money)

But instead, everyone can stop worrying about just getting by and live to do whatever it is they want to do. Whether it be the ones who want to explore the universe, those whom want to challenge themselves intellectually, the ones who want to make the world an even better place, or some whom choose to live an easy & relaxing life.

Now back to our world. We don't have the ability/resources to provide every single person with the basic comfortble needs of life- maybe I should rephrase that, we don't have that ability unless everyone works to do their own part in some way. Since everyone has to contribute in some form, we need something to signify that effort and to redeem it for those basic needs + extra needs. It also works as a built in check system so those that are contributing to society are the ones that can survive. That is one way money can be viewed, and perhaps the most important way for this sort of discussion.

I believe at some point in humanity we will reach a technological/resource level that everyone can be given the basics to live, and then we can see some real improvements; not just in the technological sense, but in our state of mind.

In sum, I suppose it's just best said that we need money because of resource scarcity and our unlimited wants.
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:23 AM   #12
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Thats is just like Communism. Ideally looks good but in reality it fails.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:34 AM   #13
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But how can you not like it with a guaranteed minimum of 80k a year?
Getting through high school was easy. Hell, I was stoned halfway through high school and graduated with honors. So, now I would get rewarded for my "efforts" with an 80k a year job? Why should I endure 4-8 more years of school when that kind of salary will net me a pretty luxurious lifestyle?
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:54 AM   #14
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Does Sarrin=Novarick?

Sadly the cons must not take you very seriously otherwise they'd have burned you at the stake for your quasi-communist proposals here
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
but if we all agreed to throw out the idea of inflation... it wouldnt effect us. If we had unlimited resources, wouldnt we be able to give ourselves the highest value of goods as possible without ripping anyone off because we would have unlimited cash.
I think the problem might be that you consider money to have intrinsic value. It does not.

Money is a refinement of the barter system, nothing more.

Say you want some food. You can either make it yourself, or you can barter for it. If you have something the food maker wants, you can barter directly. If you do not, you have to barter indirectly, using money.

Money can be anything that is desired by enough people that you can get rid of it when you want to. Gold works well for this, because people will always want gold (for whatever reason). How did we come to be using paper for money when it doesn't have any intrinsic value to anyone?

Taxes.

The government will only take their currency for paying taxes, which creates artificial demand for what would otherwise be worthless pieces of paper. This means that you know that you can trade money for something you want because someone will always need that paper to pay their taxes.

If you get rid of taxes, the demand for money will fall, taking the value with it. If, at the same time, you create a lot more money, the value will fall even more.

The only way around this is to centrally fix prices, and that can only work as long as you can stop people from forming a black market (you can't).

You don't need to look any farther than the energy "crisis" in California to see what havoc you can cause with price fixing.



Even if you could prop things up with psychotropic drugs and convince people to keep buying and selling for the same prices despite every good reason not to, your plan would have a detrimental effect on the economy.

National production isn't completely determined by money available. There are also problems of labor and skill available, and raw materials available. Cutting trade would shift a portion of our available labor to less productive work, meaning we would produce less overall for our work. Also, there are many resources that are cheap to get elsewhere, but expensive or impossible to get here. Many exotic metals (crucial to the space program you used in your example) fall into this category.
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Old 03-25-2004, 06:45 AM   #16
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We throw all these terms out with my plan. I think that is why you do not understand.

It is not up to the people to deside the price of the items, it is up to the government.

What resources do we need that isnt unlimited?

We have vegitable oil to replace petroleum...

+I think the problem might be that you consider money to have intrinsic value. It does not.

If the Government decrees it, it does!
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:01 AM   #17
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It is not up to the people to deside the price of the items, it is up to the government.
Think of the corruption that would come out of this government.
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Old 03-25-2004, 08:19 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
We throw all these terms out with my plan. I think that is why you do not understand.
You can throw out the terms if you want, but reality causes the terms; the terms don't cause reality.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
It is not up to the people to deside the price of the items, it is up to the government.
And now you are back to strict communism despite your claims that you aren't.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
What resources do we need that isnt unlimited?
Oh, titanium, tungsten, tantalum and uranium just off the top of my head. Have fun exploring space without those.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
We have vegitable oil to replace petroleum...
Err, no. Vegetable oils share some properties with certain parts of petroleum, but they are not the same thing. No vegetable oils have volatility like kerosene, for example. Kerosene is jet fuel, by the way. You can convert a jet engine to run on alcohols if you need to, but alcohols don't have the energy density of kerosene, so you need to carry more of it, which means you can carry less payload. This would cripple the air transportation industry which is already on the bleeding edge of effenciency.

Originally Posted by Sarrin Kanth
+I think the problem might be that you consider money to have intrinsic value. It does not.

If the Government decrees it, it does!
That only works if the government is willing to prop up the value. This can be done with taxes, which you have already rejected, or, I suppose, by killing people who don't agree. Stalin tried this. He killed 10 million people (this is the low estimate; other say 60 million). How many are you planning to kill?

Here, read this before you reply:

http://www.usagold.com/GermanNightmare.html

Skip over the first part which is Gold Standard propaganda which relates to this discussion only slightly.
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Old 03-25-2004, 09:26 PM   #19
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What resources do we need that isnt unlimited?
Uh, how about everything? Instead, name me all the vital resources (or heck, any resources) we have that are unlimited. If they were unlimited, and better yet we had the technology to convert the resources instantly into something useful, then there wouldn't be a need for money. Which is pretty much what your whole idea is, money with no real value.
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Old 03-25-2004, 09:49 PM   #20
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The value of money is determined by the supply and demand for... money.

That's not really 100% accurate, but it's a decent quick and dirty summary.

That and the idea of limitless resources are the two glaring flaws in your system.

The scarcity and utility of a resource determines its value. The government can alter the price of a resource, sure, by buying or selling some of it. But they can't fix prices.

Labor is a resource. The scarcity and utility of a given type of labor determines its value, just like any other resource.

Fixed incomes don't function in a labor environment.
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Old 03-26-2004, 02:13 AM   #21
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What exactly would the goal be under this plan? Is it aimed at improving the US economy?

I think, in order to implement a model of this magnitude, you'd have to change a lot more than just our trade and financial practices. You would have to realign nearly every tenet of American life, because we've become so dependent on our freedoms and the variety of options available to us that we'd suffocate without them.

It would almost have to be a hostile takeover of the country, with people being forced into submission. Their rights are going to be taken away under this plan. It would almost have to be done either gradually so as not to be noticed, or quickly and forcefully so as not to be resisted.

While it seems, on paper, that some of these changes would be beneficial, I think the total damage done to the country would make it extremely undesirable as a solution.
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:30 AM   #22
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The basis of communism is utopian. In principle it is very beneficial to all, and is a better way of life, but the problem in many communist societies is that they don't have the resources to support their own country. This is why it fails.

America does not have this problem at this time so there's a possibility that it could support a "utopian/communistic" society. However, the opposition always comes from lazy little fuckers who do not like the idea that they have to perform a government sanctioned job when they'd rather loaf, pretend to study/loaf, perform illegal activities to garner money.

As it stands it is suspected that America will close it's doors to the majority of outside trade in the near future in order to stabilize the economy.
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:44 AM   #23
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As it stands it is suspected that America will close it's doors to the majority of outside trade in the near future in order to stabilize the economy.
That makes no sense. Our entire economy is based on trade. The moment a politician says that I couldn't buy a BMW, or Lamborghini is the day that he would leave office. Hell every single piece of my computer was made in another country.
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Old 04-01-2004, 02:13 AM   #24
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The majority of outside trade is not Lamborghini's and BMW's.

The majority of outside trade is oil, steel, food, and things like that. Many economists are predicting that there may be a period of time in the next decade where America soldifies it's base by building rather then importing in.

It's been done before and it's usually very temporary measure but yes it might mean that instead of purchasing in computer chips from Taiwan you have to purchase them from American made companies instead. This therefore creates jobs.

I don't fully understand it either but my job means I have to research into economists views.
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