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Old 03-23-2004, 02:48 PM   #26
Usna
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No follow the gourd, THE GOURD.
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Old 03-23-2004, 04:41 PM   #27
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Church lady at my door, " Christians are good people, you should join us(in their church)."

Me: "Hitler was a christian."

Silence.

Me: "Thanks for the offer, God bless you, and good luck next-door, they are atheists."

Wait. More silence. Close door.

Man after 2 years in this neighborhood I would have thought they would have a come back. Hehe.

I hate people that try to cram religon down others throats. I have friends from many faiths. Just hate those people disturbing my dinner
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:06 PM   #28
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Yoikes, some one knocked on your door and thats cramming it down your throat? How do you react to junk mail and advertising on TV?
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Old 03-24-2004, 03:40 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
WRONG
I posted a TRUE story. I posted what ONE Muslim religious leader said, ONE conversation between a Christian Preacher and a Muslim Preacher.
Claim: Imam is questioned about Islamic attitude toward infidels.

Status: Undetermined.

Example: [Mathes, 2003]

Allah or Jesus?

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers who represented the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that all of the Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. Is that correct?"

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then said, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to heaven."

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question . . . would you rather have your Allah who tell[s] you to kill me in order to go to heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me these 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me, "Rick, remember that the truth will prevail."

And it will!

Origins: The piece quoted above ("Allah or Jesus?") is an editorial penned by Rick Mathes, Executive Director of the Mission Gate Prison Ministry.

We asked Mr. Mathes if he could provide some information about the origins of the piece, and he responded:
This article is an exact recording of a real event that I participated in. My only commentary was, "the truth will prevail." I think this meeting was in May 2003 and I will not give out more details for fear of retribution. The purpose of the class was to increase "religious sensitivity", that is, tolerance for each others beliefs and I really blew that. The director was purple with rage however the Imam and I exchanged signs and said "Salaam" which means "peace" in Arabic (I hope). I questioned him (Imam) really to get a clear refutation of what is commonly thought of this Jihad nonsense. But apparently he wasn't educated enough to rebut my remarks or by his silence on this matter (I think) concurred with my implied conclusions. In either case I was surprised. And when I said I found it hard to be his friend, everyone laughed out loud. So the mood was an amazing mix of those who were interested like me and others that were just amused by the whole thing. I left the matter open on purpose (the truth will prevail) so that either side could speak up and claim the truth as their own.
Reporter Greg Kearney, writing for the Lee News Service, traced the story to a correctional facility in Fulton, Missouri, and came away with a decidedly different version of events from Missouri state officials.

According to Tim Kniest, Public Information Officer for the Missouri Department of Corrections, the event described was a training program for prison volunteers, for which ministers from several faiths were invited to give presentations in order to acquaint prison volunteers with the varied religious beliefs of the inmate population. The man who gave the presentation about Islam was not a Muslim minister; he was an inmate pressed into service to present a short film on Islam and answer some questions when the prison's Volunteer Coordinator was "unable to find an Imam to speak."

Moreover, reported Mr. Kniest, the prison's Volunteer Coordinator said that "The inmate did a good job," adding, "He was asked a few questions that were beyond his ability to answer. But he was not asked anything like that question [in the editorial]":
. . . the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame'," according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.

In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.
Whatever may have transpired at the prison training session referred to above, the notion expressed by this piece is inaccurate. Islam is not a monolithic religion in which unanimity of belief and action is coordinated from a central authority. Islam has an estimated two billion adherents in countries all over the world who belong to any one of a number of different sects with varying beliefs, traditions, and interpretations of scripture. (As well, some religious groups identify themselves as Islamic but are not recognized as such by the vast majority of Muslims.) No one Muslim (especially one who wasn't even a cleric) could speak to what all of Islam believes, any more than a single member of a Methodist congregation could speak for every denomination and follower of Christianity. Many, many Muslims reject the idea that "all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of their faith," or even the suggestion that such an interpretation has ever been a valid tenet of Islam. We sent this piece to several Muslim groups and invited them to offer comments; they provided somewhat different explanations about the concept of jihad, how Muslims regard non-Muslims, and other related topics, but they all agreed that the editorial presented a grossly distorted version of their beliefs.

Last updated: 13 January 2004


Care to cite your source, Inmountains? Here's mine:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:56 AM   #30
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Default Miracle?

I REST MY CASE!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

Miracle?
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:37 PM   #31
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You rest your case about what? Proving you will continue to use the actions and words of extremists to condemn an entire religion as violent and extremist?: yep, you've proven that. Here's your cookie
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:50 PM   #32
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I 'rest my case' that there are certain Muslim 'sects' that teach violence and murder!!! I prefer Gnome shaped cookies, not Barbarian shaped cookies. Barbarian cookies have a gamey taste!!
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Old 03-26-2004, 02:03 PM   #33
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This thread isnt titled "What some sects of Islam Believe". If you truly werent trying to paint such a broad picture then perhaps you could tone down the rhetoric.

As a Christian do you want to be defined by the extremist who use their faith to justify horrendous behaviour?
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Old 03-26-2004, 02:21 PM   #34
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It's funny that a religion that has "Thou shalt not kill" as a commandment is probably responsible for the most deaths in the span of history. I prefer the Buddhist precept "Avoid killing". It takes into account that killing maybe necessary (such as in self-defense).
you are wrong. if you check the proper translations of the words it comes out as "thou shalt not murder". killing in self defense and just war isnt premeditated murder.
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:19 PM   #35
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Just interested, Kanibaal, but could you provide the Hebrew translation of 'Thou shalt not kill'? In fact, please cite the sources of your translation.
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Old 03-27-2004, 12:44 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
I 'rest my case' that there are certain Muslim 'sects' that teach violence and murder!!!
They inherited it from Jewish and Christian "sects".
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Old 03-27-2004, 05:16 AM   #37
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"They inherited it from Jewish and Christian "sects"."

I might be wrong, but I believe the Muslim religion started shortly after Abraham and Christianity started shortly after Jesus Christ. If that is the case, then the Christian 'sects' that are violent would have inherited it from the Muslim 'sects' which are violent.

Also, comparing one person who claims to be a Christian and bombs an Abortion clinic to Hamas or Al Queda, just might be a bit stretch, don't you think?

Let me just say this, and this is my 'bottom line' feelings about all of this, "Violence in the name of religion or faith sickens me, it doesn't matter what religion it is!"
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Old 03-27-2004, 07:45 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by IM
Also, comparing one person who claims to be a Christian and bombs an Abortion clinic to Hamas or Al Queda, just might be a bit stretch, don't you think?
Aside from scale of operations, no- they are both of the same moral fabric.
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Old 03-27-2004, 09:26 AM   #39
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That "moral fabric" is a pretty wide paint brush there Horma. The use of violence would be just about the only commonality between them. The reason's behind the violence vary greatly.
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Old 03-27-2004, 10:31 AM   #40
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Ah, so it's ok (or at least less "not ok") to target "infidels" of one sort (abortion providers for example) and kill innocent bystanders (passersby on streets when bomb goes off for example) but not another (American targets in the middle east for example) and kill innocent bystanders (civilians nearby a military installation for example)?

I don't see how your Christian terrorists have any more valid reason for violence than Islamic ones. They are moral peers, and inexcusably criminal.
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Old 03-27-2004, 02:03 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Inmountains
I might be wrong, but I believe the Muslim religion started shortly after Abraham and Christianity started shortly after Jesus Christ. If that is the case, then the Christian 'sects' that are violent would have inherited it from the Muslim 'sects' which are violent.
You're wrong, but your assertion that Christianity inherited anything is a poor argument. It's an admission that it's a violent religion regardless of what it inherited. Doing something wrong because somebody else does it doesn't make it right.

Mohammed lived 570-632 CE, 500 or so years after Jesus's time.
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Old 03-27-2004, 03:35 PM   #42
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It's Thou Shall Not Murder according to this site, course I cant read Hebrew so really have to take thier word for it.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm

The latin translation is "non occides". This seems to translate to you will not massacre/slaughter....it has been a while since High School Latin though.

Just a fast look through, the only translation, I saw, to state "Thou Shall not kill" is the King James. Kind of makes me curious to how many other statements were altered or translated incorrectly.

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Old 03-27-2004, 09:36 PM   #43
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/hijack
On the subject of the translation from hebrew

The site you provided obviously isn't a direct translation. The Torah was written without the use of vowels (which are present in said translation you provided). The translation 'assumes' vowels to be in logical positions, where we believe putting them would cause the phrase to be understandable. There's no garuntee that the word we believe it to be was what it was actually intended to mean.

Just thought I'd play devil's avocate
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Old 03-28-2004, 03:25 PM   #44
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IM: I'm not calling you ignorant for being a Christian, as I'm one myself. And I'm quite the fundamentalist, too. I'm calling you ignorant for believing that any teaching of Christ's could be twisted into killing someone before they can kill you. Turning the other cheek isn't a metaphor, but a command. The early church excommunicated people for taking up arms. While that may be impractical and illogical, I don't believe that practicality or the wisdom of this world are guides to Christian conduct.

Bumble: Your stereotyping of "fundamentalism" is both ignorant and contemptible. Fundamentalist religions are no more dangerous than the wacky anything goes stuff that I see everyday living in Los Angeles. The apathy and disconnect toward others that I see in those holding to more liberated (ie. make up whatever you like) beliefs, is just as capable of producing a nihilistic apocalypse than a fundamentalist one.
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Old 03-28-2004, 03:44 PM   #45
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A Discourse on "Thou shalt not kill."

by Raedwulf

"Thou shalt not kill" has been the subject of thousands and thousands of essays on this subject over the millenia, from the esoteric to the practical. From Thomas Aquinas creation of the doctrine of "just war" to Thoreau's "civil disobedience." Gandhi and MLK had something to say about it, too.

Historically, it has always inferred killing outside of a war of self-preservation or outside judicial decree. As death was a punishment meted out by society for certain criminal activities, clearly it could not be an absolute admonition against killing. And as war was a necessary thing at the time of the Old Testament, where the refusal to fight back may have resulted in the wiping out of the tribe of Israel (something God clearly would not have wanted based upon His actions throughout their History), there certainly appears to be a time and a place for it.

As stated in Ecclesiastes, "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, ... a time for war and a time for peace." 3:1-8. Or Pete Seeger.

However, I don't believe the question should end at this commandment, for new ones have been stated by Christ. From "turning the other cheek" to "he who is without sin." The message of Christ is no longer tied only to one tribe of people, but given to all. The death of one group or nation cannot harm the Eternal Gospel.

Amen
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Old 03-28-2004, 04:25 PM   #46
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Raed, interesting argument, but I don't think "he who is without sin" and "turn the other cheek" were COMMANDMENTS! They were situational teachings of Christ when he walked the earth. We could get into quite a lively and interesting debate regarding many Biblical Topics. As you stated, in the Old Testament, God gave many orders to kill. In the New Testament, Christ said, "I will show you a better way" and showed mankind how REAL love is suppose to work. Christ also taught, "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out or if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off." I don't see too many "one eyed" or "one handed" Christians walking around. Again, situational teachings that need to be understood within their context, and not taking literally. Christ used a LOT of figurative word pictures in His teachings, such as "I am the vine, ye are the branches", "I am the Good Shepherd and ye are the sheep", etc....

The Greatest Commandment is "Love your God" and the second is like unto it, "Love your neighbor as yourself". These are commandments!!!
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Old 03-28-2004, 04:43 PM   #47
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In the context they were used, there is nothing "situational" about either commandment, guideline, teaching. Is there some other point where He said to go ahead and stone the harlot? Is there some other place in Scripture He said that it would be okay to beat the crap out of someone who harmed you?

While I agree that there are metaphors in some of the parables, the stoning wasn't a parable but an actual event.

In context of both OT history and Post-Resurrection life, I see no place for wars of conquest. It's why I support the same conclusion as the atheist that is against the Pledge. The hypocrisy and hubris of pretending that this country does things according to God's law disgusts me. The pretense that this is a Christian Nation is offensive to my God. God has not blessed America. We're too good at blessing ourselves.
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