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Old 03-23-2004, 06:17 AM   #1
Inmountains
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Default True Story regarding Islam

By Rick Mattes

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for
maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training
session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the
Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim faiths, who explained each of
their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The
Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a
video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked:
"Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and
clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the
infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a
command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's
the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he
replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers
of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith
so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to
that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the
cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope
John Paul
commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley
ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have a problem with being your friend when you and
your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me
ask you one more question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells
you to kill me in order to go to Heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to
love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be there,
too?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am all for freedom of Religion, and diversification of beliefs. BUT, when a certain religion teaches their followers to KILL ME, then my instinct is to kill them first. It's called "SELF DEFENSE".

Many of you here love to make fun and ridicule those of us who have a strong faith in God and His Son, Jesus Christ. Our faith teaches us to love and accept all people. I may not agree with homosexuality, but I have friends and co workers who are and they will tell you that I treat them with more love and respect than their fellow gay friends do. I love to argue, flame and be flamed, to me it is fun and sometimes even an intellectual exercise. I am sure if I met Luri, Bumb or any of you on the left in real life, we would probably share a laugh and a beer together. I can poke fun at myself just as I can at anyone else, it makes life more fun and entertaining.

But back to the basic of my post, here is the question. Should we accept and allow a religious belief that teaches murder? I would think not!
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:28 AM   #2
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Ignorance, thy name is Inmountains.

Muslims are not all extremists, nor should you by omission absolve your own faith from the same sort of criticism. Christian extremism has a long and tainted history as well, from the Crusades to the Inquisition to murdering abortion providers. Islamic extremism is just more prevalent today.

That's one seriously hokey story btw- where do you get this folksy tripe anyway? It's not the first time you've posted a cute simple story that grossly distorts facts and is of incredibly dubious origin.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:44 AM   #3
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Christian extremism has a long and tainted history as well,
Last I checked..the crusades ended 600 years ago...while Muslims extremists just murdered an "infidel" about a day ago...wait an hour and I'm sure they will do it again..
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:54 AM   #4
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Last I checked..the crusades ended 600 years ago
When was the last time a Gay was killed because he was "Evil" by extremists that write their own version of Christianity? The same extremism lies in each religion. From time to time extremists get in and run the religion from the top on down. That doesn't fault the religion as its a constant, the variable is the humans. Islamic faith is no more evil than Christianity, fundamentalism is fundamentally dangerous no matter what the religion is.
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Old 03-23-2004, 07:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bumbleroot
Islamic faith is no more evil than Christianity, fundamentalism is fundamentally dangerous no matter what the religion is.
Excellent way to put it.
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Old 03-23-2004, 07:43 AM   #6
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

Snopes.com is your friend...
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Old 03-23-2004, 07:56 AM   #7
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Horm
I read a lot, thus I come across many stories. Yes, I did post a false story, ONCE, so you gonna keep hanging me for it? I have tried to secure and verify my sources more thoroughly since my fupah!!!

It's funny, the only people who call me "ignorant" are the "left" folks here on this board. I wonder why that it is? Is it because I post things you all disagree with? Is it because my posts are not clear? Is it because of my faith?

I guess I will stick with "real life" where terms such as "most kind", "most intelligent", "most understanding", "most compassionate", "most knowledgeable", are used about me every day. Heck, I have already had 3 people come to my desk as work this morning and say, "Mike, can you help me with this?" You all can hide behind your keyboard and monitor, and pretend to have a clue, but it all fades with the true light.

Horm, you brought up some "wrongs" done by Christians centuries ago. I wonder how many Native Americans, or African Americans, or Scots, or whoever were killed by many of YOUR ancestors. What a stupid and ignorant comment to make. And you call me IGNORANT? Everyone has ancestors in their past who do unspeakable atrocities. Why bring them up in debates of today? The Islamic Terrorists of today are the issue at hand.
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:12 AM   #8
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People use Christianity and Islam as a way to further their own selfish agendas...kind of like the Inquisitions and Crusades. That does not mean that Christianity is a bad thing...it means people twisted and manipulated it.

Now when it comes to the doctrines...Islam considers Jesus to be a failed prophet. Jesus taught about peace, hope, and love. He died in an act of love. Christianity teaches salvation (or conversion) through faith and forgiveness.

Islam teaches conversion through force...and killing.

I went to school with some Musilm guy who seemed pretty nice. We shared stories and such during our smoke breaks. I asked him if I was his enemy and he didn't answer...I asked him if I was an infidel and he still didn't answer. I asked him a couple more times over the period of about a year, but he would never answer that question.
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hormadrune
Islamic extremism is just more prevalent today
No, it just gets more airtime. Telling inbred hillbillies that their fave religion is doing this, that and everything else at prime time hurts ratings and advertising revenue.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:10 AM   #10
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Fortunately most people seem to only follow their religious beliefs when its convenient for them. Killing infidels sounds great in church, but in practice it would probably make you late from coming back from lunch.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:33 AM   #11
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I am all for freedom of Religion, and diversification of beliefs. BUT, when a certain religion teaches their followers to KILL ME, then my instinct is to kill them first. It's called "SELF DEFENSE".

Many of you here love to make fun and ridicule those of us who have a strong faith in God and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Isn't there a commandment specifically about this? Having a 'strong faith' I would think you'd be bound by those commandments. Guess not.

It says "Thou shalt no kill."
It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill, unless someone you've never seen may seem like a threat but clearly isn't."
Nor does it say "Thou shalt not kill, except on Sundays."
Hell, it doesn't even say "Thou shalt not kill, except in defense."

And to the side topic -

Christians today are committing plenty of atrocities. South Africa? How about many South American & Caribbean countries? Ever hear of a guy named Eric Robert Rudolph? Wasn't Waco essentially a Christian fundamentalist group?
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Inmoutains
It's funny, the only people who call me "ignorant" are the "left" folks here on this board. I wonder why that it is?
I am positive that some of the conservatives on this board think you're a complete and utter blooming idiot, too. They just haven't come out and stated as much here is all.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:00 AM   #13
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I personally dont believe this story is true. Additionally i know that muslim teaches you to be fair and not kill, that anyone who follows one god can be saved and tought muslim or something like that. I think they do hate people who follow no god or multiple gods, maybe thats islam im not exactly a muslim scholar. To think that all muslims are told to kill infidel's is hard to believe at best.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:05 AM   #14
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Wow Luri, your flames are getting weak. Hmmm, must be an off day for you!
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:13 AM   #15
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Nope, not an off day. I just didn't see the need to break out a vulgarity nuke.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:14 AM   #16
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It's funny that a religion that has "Thou shalt not kill" as a commandment is probably responsible for the most deaths in the span of history. I prefer the Buddhist precept "Avoid killing". It takes into account that killing maybe necessary (such as in self-defense).
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:15 AM   #17
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I appreciate that Luri, thank you!
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:25 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mikey
I guess I will stick with "real life" where terms such as "most kind", "most intelligent", "most understanding", "most compassionate", "most knowledgeable", are used about me every day. Heck, I have already had 3 people come to my desk as work this morning and say, "Mike, can you help me with this?" You all can hide behind your keyboard and monitor, and pretend to have a clue, but it all fades with the true light.
Ah yes- another requisite to an Inmountains post- a completely beside-the-point "I'm really groovy and everyone likes me! Let me tell you about my 3 houses...."


Horm, you brought up some "wrongs" done by Christians centuries ago. I wonder how many Native Americans, or African Americans, or Scots, or whoever were killed by many of YOUR ancestors. What a stupid and ignorant comment to make. And you call me IGNORANT? Everyone has ancestors in their past who do unspeakable atrocities. Why bring them up in debates of today? The Islamic Terrorists of today are the issue at hand.
I'm often amazed at the human capacity for stupidity.

The reason I brought up those issues (Crusades, Inquisition) is that you have essentially stated in this thread that Islam is a religion of hate and violence based on the practices of some extremist members. I showed you that people of your own religion (Christianity in the broad sense) has done, and continues to do (see abortion doctor slayings example or Christian Identity movement) some pretty bad stuff too. I'm sure my ancestors may well have participated in the Crusades or the slaughter of the native population of the US. However, I'm not the one coming here to condemn and pigeon-hole a single religion into the "bad guy" role.

I'll give you this much though, you might be a pathetically ignorant halfwit, but you're always good for a laugh.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:44 AM   #19
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There are millions of Muslims and if you count the number of them that are actually in Al Queda and perpetrating the suicide bombings, the percent is extremely low. It is unfair to stereotype a whole religion based on the actions of a few. That would be the equivalent of calling all Americans serial killers because of people like Jeffrey Dahmer. I can't say I am 100% sure on this, but I don't believe that killing is condoned in the Koran, I am sure I have read that somewhere. It is what these idiots (Al Queda, et al) construe it to be.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:08 AM   #20
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some of the conservatives on this board think
Careful Lurikeen you may be taken out of context.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:20 AM   #21
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Horma, I applaud you, that is a better flame than Luri, you must be having a "good day".

Also, you remember that I own 3 houses, I am impressed, I must have made a lasting memory on you.

The "Christian Crusades" were WRONG, no doubt about it. But I again fail to see how something done centuries ago address this of today? I am sure back then, there was Christians who whole heartedly disagreed with the crusades. But the Crusades were still wrong. There are Muslim's today who disagree with killing, BUT there are also Islamic Clerics who teach that there are great rewards for those who kill "infidel's". That is my point, that that kind of teaching is wrong and immoral, just as the Crusades were.

There are modern Christian Evangelist's that I whole heartedly DISAGREE with, but that does not sway my Faith. You say I "pigeon holed" Islams, then you turn right around and pigeon hole me with the Crusades, unless I read your post incorrectly.

Again, my point is, any religion, OR sect within a religion, that teaches to murder, is wrong. Fundamentalism is not necessarily wrong or bad, but extremism is! The Amish and Quakers are "Fundamentalist", but I don't see them as being bad. Jim Jones and David Coresh were extremist's, and I see them as being BAD.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:38 AM   #22
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You say I "pigeon holed" Islams, then you turn right around and pigeon hole me with the Crusades, unless I read your post incorrectly.
You didn't..and he did. Typical.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:45 AM   #23
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Muslim

Moslem \Mos"lem\, n.; pl. Moslems, or collectively Moslem. [Ar. muslim a true believer in the Mohammedan faith, fr. salama to submit to God, to resign one's self to the divine will. Cf. Islam, Mussulman.] A Mussulman; an orthodox Mohammedan. [Written also muslim.] ``Heaps of slaughtered Moslem.'' --Macaulay.

They piled the ground with Moslem slain. --Halleck.


Litttle blurb on Islam

I have always enjoyed the different religions, specifically there history. From the definition of Muslim we can see that a muslim is considered anyone that submits to the will of God. That includes people of the Christian and Jewish faith. Because all of these groups submit there will to the "One God".

With that deduction, Christians and Jews are not "infidels" per sey.

The fact of the matter (and this is true of all religions). The people of power in these religions use certain contexes to subvert the meaning of these religions to there own will.

Islam in nature is a peaceful religion, so is Christianity and Judaism. however, These 3 religions have caused more deaths and wars they any other reason in History.

No one religion is worse then the other. Its the people that are of power within these religions that need to be feared, and use the context of the Bible, Quran, and Torah to lead there people in defiling there own religion for personal gain.

Does anyone else find it Ironic that the 3 major religions are all based from one Prohphet, Abraham?

Flame away
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:51 AM   #24
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Both Trith & Inmountains missed the whole point.

The entire reason the Crusades (et al) was brought up was to show you can't paint an entire culture/race/religion in broad stripes by calling all christians/islamists murderers.

Inmountains started the thread with a weak fictional story that insinutates all Muslim religious leaders preach hatred, intolerance and murder which is patently false - and worse yet he went on to defend it.

Using those broad strokes is what is being debated.

There are exceptions and aberrations in any group. Islamic Fundamentalists strapping dynamite to their chests are as extreme and abberrant as Christian Bible-Thumpers tossing pipe bombs into abortion clinics. Got it?
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Old 03-23-2004, 12:03 PM   #25
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Cerulean posts, "Inmountains started the thread with a weak fictional story that insinutates all Muslim religious leaders preach hatred, intolerance and murder which is patently false - and worse yet he went on to defend it."

WRONG
I posted a TRUE story. I posted what ONE Muslim religious leader said, ONE conversation between a Christian Preacher and a Muslim Preacher.

I am against suicide bombers. I am against abortion clinic bombers.

My point is that there are Muslim clerics who preach to "murder the infidel to get rewards in heave". NEVER in my post did I say that MUSLIM IS BAD, it is my antagonists that twisted it all up. What I said, exactly, was, "I am all for freedom of Religion, and diversification of beliefs. BUT, when a certain religion teaches their followers to KILL ME, then my instinct is to kill them first. It's called "SELF DEFENSE"."

Show me where I said that all MUSLIM was bad?
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