Erollisi Marr - The Nameless

Go Back   Erollisi Marr - The Nameless > NON EQ Stuff (Real life, other games, etc.) > Steam Vent


Reply
 
Add/Share Add/Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-19-2004, 04:04 PM   #1
Uruz Magnuson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 52
Send a message via Yahoo to Uruz Magnuson
Default interesting information (made more readable)

got this from an email group i'm on. this is one of the few times that i would be glad to see a group go back to the "old way" of thinking.


When marriage between
gays was by rite


RITE AND REASON: A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St
Catherine's monastery on Mount Sinai. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them
is a traditional Roman pronubus (best man) overseeing what in a standard Roman
icon would be the wedding of a husband and wife. In the icon, Christ is the
pronubus. Only one thing is unusual. The "husband and wife" are in fact two
men.Is the icon suggesting that a homosexual "marriage" is one sanctified by
Christ? The very idea initially seems shocking.

The full answer comes from other
sources about the two men featured, St Serge and St Bacchus, two Roman soldiers
who became Christian martyrs. While the pairing of saints, particularly in
the early Church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded
as particularly close. Severus of Antioch in the sixth century explained that
"we should not separate in speech [Serge and Bacchus] who were joined in
life". More bluntly, in the definitive 10th century Greek account of their lives,
St Serge is openly described as the "sweet companion and lover" of St
Bacchus.

In other words, it confirms what the earlier icon implies, that they were a
homosexual couple. Unusually their orientation and relationship was openly
accepted by early Christian writers. Furthermore, in an image that to some modern
Christian eyes might border on blasphemy, the icon has Christ himself as their
pronubus, their best man overseeing their "marriage".The very idea of a
Christian homosexual marriage seems incredible. Yet after a 12-year search of
Catholic and Orthodox church archives Yale history professor John Boswell has
discovered that a type of Christian homosexual "marriage" did exist as late as the
18th century.

Contrary to myth, Christianity's concept of marriage has not been
set in stone since the days of Christ, but has evolved both as a concept and
as a ritual. Prof Boswell discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage
ceremonies in ancient church liturgical documents (and clearly separate from
other types of non-marital blessings such as blessings of adopted children or
land) were ceremonies called, among other titles, the "Office of Same Sex
Union" (10th and 11th century Greek) or the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and
12th century).These ceremonies had all the contemporary symbols of a marriage:
a community gathered in church, a blessing of the couple before the altar,
their right hands joined as at heterosexual marriages, the participation of a
priest, the taking of the Eucharist, a wedding banquet afterwards.

All of which
are shown in contemporary drawings of the same sex union of Byzantine Emperor
Basil I (867-886) and his companion John. Such homosexual unions also took
place in Ireland in the late 12th/early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of
Wales (Geraldus Cambrensis) has recorded.Boswell's book, The Marriage of
Likeness: Same Sex Unions in Pre- Modern Europe, lists in detail some same sex
union ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th
century "Order for Solemnisation of Same Sex Union" having invoked St Serge and St
Bacchus, called on God to "vouchsafe unto these thy servants [N and N] grace
to love one another and to abide unhated and not a cause of scandal all the
days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God and all thy
saints." The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other,
and it shall be concluded."Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of
Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple having their
right hands laid on the Gospel while having a cross placed in their left hands.
Having kissed the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other,
after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both
communion.Boswell found records of same-sex unions in such diverse archives as
those in the Vatican, in St Petersburg, in Paris, Istanbul, and in Sinai, covering
a period from the 8th to the 18th centuries.

Nor is he the first to make such
a discovery. The Dominican Jacques Goar (1601-1653) includes such ceremonies
in a printed collection of Greek prayer books. While homosexuality was
technically illegal from late Roman times, it was only from about the 14th century
that anti-homosexual feelings swept western Europe. Yet same sex union
ceremonies continued to take place.At St John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's
parish Church) in 1578 as many as 13 couples were "married" at Mass with the
apparent co-operation of the local clergy, "taking Communion together, using
the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together", according
to a contemporary report.Another woman-to-woman union is recorded in Dalmatia
in the 18th century.

Many questionable historical claims about the church
have been made by some recent writers in this newspaper.Boswell's academic study
however is so well researched and sourced as to pose fundamental questions for
both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their attitude
towards homosexuality. FOR the Church to ignore the evidence in its own
archives would be a cowardly cop-out. That evidence shows convincingly that what the
modern church claims has been its constant unchanging attitude towards
homosexuality is in fact nothing of the sort. It proves that for much of the last two
millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom from
Ireland to Istanbul and in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were
accepted as valid expressions of a God-given ability to love and commit to
another person, a love that could be celebrated, honoured and blessed both in
the name of, and through the Eucharist in the presence of Jesus Christ.Jim Duffy
is a writer and historian. The Marriage of Likeness: Same Sex Unions in
Pre-Modern Europe by John Boswell is published by Harper Collins.

Click here: Opinion / The Irish Times on the Web / ireland.com
http://www.drizzle.com/~slmndr/salam...times/opt3.htm

<shrug> i didn't have any problem reading it. and since i sucked at composition, not sure if those spots are where the paragraphs are supposed to be. but either way, really curious to hear what people on these boards think about this.
__________________
Uruz Magnuson, F.I.N.E. vodoo medicine man of Crimson Eternity

Last edited by Uruz Magnuson; 03-20-2004 at 05:58 AM.
Uruz Magnuson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2004, 06:00 PM   #2
shadowedspawn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Korea
Posts: 175
For the love of my eye's and the eyes of the other readers, PLEASE break this down into paragraphs!
__________________
Shadowedspawn Hatebringer
Death Knight
<Ring of Destiny>


He who laughs alone at night does so in contemplation of his own evil.

"My name and dildos both brought up without my presence.
*tear*
My life's work is complete."
- Fanon sums up his lifes greatest work.
shadowedspawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2004, 06:18 PM   #3
chukzombi
The Undead Shaman
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Bowels of Hell, A.K.A. New Jersey
Posts: 9,564
After just glancing at that post , my blind aunt keeled over with an anueryism
__________________
Chukzombi Astrocreep
Magister (re-united)
chukzombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2004, 07:38 AM   #4
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
Just so you know I had heard a piece on this somewhere I think it was NPR. There is much discussion about what is actually going on. There was belief that this may have appeared as it does today and there is also some counterbeliefs that it was purely ritualistic and signified male bonding- pretty much like a bachelor party in a way.
It is based on actual practices but these practices were pretty much secret at the time if I can recall correctly and they were ceremonial.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2004, 02:45 PM   #5
gojirra monk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 304
First, at times and in parts of the Roman Empire (which was friggin' huge and diverse, by the way) some things were acceptable that would make a Vegas hooker blush.

Second, there is a huge mass of Christians that aren't Catholic.

Third, unless Christ made that icon himself, I would hesitate to think that it implies his blessing.

Fourth, the issues facing us aren't really from the past, but from the future. We need to make our own decisions and set our own direction.

My opinion: replace the income tax with a flat sales tax, this will effectively remove all government interest from marriage. Next, remove all mention of marriage from laws (probate mostly), because it really doesn't matter. At that point, marriage will become a personal and/or religious event again.
gojirra monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 09:57 AM   #6
Nuzum
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 194
yeah but they were romans or greeks, both have sex with dead and living sheep, so as far as anyones concerned if you stick your thingy in it you can marry it according to the post.
__________________
Nuzum Witch Doctor

"Kitties are the Dion warwicks of the shaman world"
Nuzum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 02:51 PM   #7
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
In ancient Rome it was not only acceptable, but considered prestigious and admirable if a man had sex with boys. This was supposedly a "
"bringing up Jr." belief.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 05:39 PM   #8
Ulujain
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: La La Land
Posts: 1,930
Bumbleroot, prove it.
__________________
S.I.G.N.A.T.U.R.E.
Ulujain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 05:41 PM   #9
chukzombi
The Undead Shaman
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Bowels of Hell, A.K.A. New Jersey
Posts: 9,564
I think Bumblebumble watched the gay scenes of Caligiula(sp) too many times.
__________________
Chukzombi Astrocreep
Magister (re-united)
chukzombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 06:51 PM   #10
bumbleroot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 7,756
Aaah you cons are such easy bait to the ignorance worm..

Here is a book documenting it
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/genera...&ci=0195113004
This
http://www.queerme.com/Sidebars/Grec...ty_sidebar.htm
As well as various works of poetry and literature and art representing this in their culture.
This
http://www.nathanielwandering.net/Rome.htm

This is from Greek stuff
http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/theran.html
This which includes a shitload of sources about the Greeks and homosexuality
http://www.grecoreport.com/citations...osexuality.htm

Now stop flaunting your ignorance.
And forgive me for mine I mentioned the Romans when it was mainly a continuation of practices prevelant amongst the ancient Greeks.
bumbleroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 08:13 PM   #11
Veo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,926
Greek, Roman, what's the difference? Over half of ancient Roman society was stolen from the Greeks...
Veo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 09:23 PM   #12
cnjmorris
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 925
If it says "St." insteads of "saint" then odds are it isn't supported by Christ.

Afterall it was Jesus' position that all Christians were saints.
__________________

Catcen, Level 65 Beastlord.

Newbie for life.
cnjmorris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 11:57 PM   #13
Ulujain
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: La La Land
Posts: 1,930
Originally Posted by Veo
Greek, Roman, what's the difference? Over half of ancient Roman society was stolen from the Greeks...
Not stolen; "co-opted", and it'd be closer to 80% of their culture, epsecially after Hadrian.
__________________
S.I.G.N.A.T.U.R.E.
Ulujain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:03 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.