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Old 03-12-2004, 04:37 AM   #1
bumbleroot
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Default Let me put this into perspective...

Let me put this into perspective for you neo-cons that won't look past your ideologies and political leanings to understand the common sense of the economy. Take your own personal budget as an example and look at the macro-economy in the same way.
Suppose you earned $100k a year. $25k was spent on your mortgage. $25k was spent on paying down your debts. $25k was spent on living expenses. $25k was spent on investments.
Now suppose you took 15k of the 25k that you used for paying down debts and used it for living expenses. You now only have 10k a year going to paying down your debts, while having 40k for living expenses or for whatever you want. You are not making any more money than before but because you are doing less in paying down your debt are effectively losing more future money as the interest rates are creating more debt for you. There are no guidelines in what you are needing to spend that money on so you spend it however you like.
That is exactly what is happening with the tax cut. There is no new money being put into the economy and although it may be taking some money and investing it, you must remember that the macro-economy is limited to only investment money. In other words, return on all investments is based only on future money and can not create money when it isn't there.

If you were industrious and wanted to be in better economic shape you would get a small part-time job and add another $10k to that 100k that you make. All of a sudden you are taking more money into your life.
That is what isn't being done.
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Old 03-12-2004, 06:08 AM   #2
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Now I hear consistently from Republicans and conservatives this old mantra of "Be Responsible, be responsible". They believe it is their mantra and doesn't belong to libs. That is wrong.
Had someone been personally responsible, they would have gotten a second job to pay down their debt.
Had the government been responsible they would have added more jobs and more money to pay down its debt.

Can you see now why this tax cut is irresponsible? Can you see why it is bad for our country? It had nothing with it to grow the economy.

As I said before I don't disdain tax cuts. Reagan did them, Kennedy did them, and Bush did them. Bush's tax cut has nothing with it to stimulate the economy. The other two tax cuts had added features. Some worked, some didn't, but Bush's tax cut is only a shift of money in the economy, not adding any money into the economy.
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Old 03-12-2004, 06:40 AM   #3
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Wow, the same old cry from the left, "ADD MORE JOBS". You know what, it is NOT the responsibility of the US Government to add jobs.

I do agree that President Bush has not handled the economy the best way possible, but he is doing things to try and fix this FUBAR mess that Clinton created with his 'smoke and mirrors' economy. The economy started it's downward trend 2 months after Bush took office. Guess what, that was Bill Clinton's 'house of cards' economy. Things like Enron, WorldCom, the DotCom's, etc... are all part of Clinton's 'paper tiger' economy, and were doomed to fail from the beginning.

To fix the eonomy, the first thing I would do is to CUT 10 percent of the Federal Jobs, give incentives to companies so they can hire more, penalize companies that send jobs overseas (long topic, not going to get in depth here), and restructure the entire tax code.

The tax code could be as simple as this:
Under 25,000 income, no Fed Inc Tax
25k to 50k income, pay 10 percent Inc Tax
50k to 100k income, pay 15 percent Inc Tax
over 100k income, pay 20 percent Inc Tax

Only deductions being Charitable Donations, but cannot exceed 20 precent of Gross Income.
No deductions for children, mortgage interest, medical bills, etc.....
No tax on capital gains or inherited money.
Money received from lottery, gambling, lawsuits, etc... is all taxable.

Wow, your tax return could be done on a 3x5 card, and all those "tax preparers" could go get real jobs.

I know this is NOT the perfect solution, and there is much more to consider, but it would be a good start in the right direction.
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Old 03-12-2004, 08:09 AM   #4
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Fubar mess left by the Clinton administration?

We've lost three million jobs in this country over the last three years since Bush took office, the deficit has soared to new record highs, we have 15 million unemployed workers, we aren't creating new jobs in the private sector, the trade deficit is at a record high, and thousands of jobs are being shipped overseas.

Bush has FUBARED this country's economy. You look like a complete drooling idiot trying to blame Clinton, who has been out of office for nearly four years now.

Also, what you would do to fix the economy means absolutely jack shit unless you are in the Bush administration and can affect economic policy! Unless, of course, you think Bushiepoo himself is going out of his way to parse these boards for tidbits of information gleened from your superior economic theories?
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Old 03-12-2004, 08:17 AM   #5
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Yet another WAAAH WAAAH WAAAAH post from the libs, with absolutely no fucking solutions, just more whining.

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Old 03-12-2004, 08:22 AM   #6
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Vulpes, here is a real solution. The only way for common people to make change is by voting. Unless of course you think your representatives or president are lurking these boards looking for tidbits of wisdom by which they can run government?
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Old 03-12-2004, 08:27 AM   #7
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That's not a solution..that's a problem...or a great comedy link..one of the two.
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Old 03-12-2004, 09:01 AM   #8
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Yep, you definitely need to vote for Kerry,because,after reading his speech, he thinks just like you. I see about 15 things that he bitches at Bush for not funding and yet brings up the Bush budget deficit over and over. Does Kerry have a magic money tree? He must, just like you.

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Old 03-12-2004, 09:04 AM   #9
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Excellent. You c0n trolls complain that the Democrats aren't providing solutions and when I prove you wrong you whine that Kerry bitches about Bush? What did you fucking think he would do as a Democrat? Praise the idiot Gibbon in the oval office?

What a bunch of tards.
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Old 03-12-2004, 09:07 AM   #10
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What did you fucking think he would do as a Democrat
Answer: Fuck the nation up beyond recognition, tax the middle class into oblivion, open our borders to anyone and cripple our defense.

Any others questions you need answered?
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Old 03-12-2004, 09:18 AM   #11
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Clinton created with his 'smoke and mirrors' economy
I disagree. Clinton added new business and new jobs. This added money to our economy. Bush did not follow up on this and in fact made a 180 degree turn on Clintonomics. The old adage of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" should have been followed.

IM thank you for being honest. Bush did not nor has not done a good job on fixing things. I agree with some of your solutions. I don't see any added money occurring though. Free trade isn't wrong, but when we open markets we need to create jobs in this country because that is money that is being spent in our economy as a result. What we want is to add money to the bottom line. There is no money on the bottom line being added right now. If anyone knows anything about economics, the entire premise of economics is the bottom line.

As our dollar weakens and we have less jobs our bottom line is going down.
Clintonomics simply added money to our bottom line. It was not smoke and mirrors. Bushonomics hasn't added to our bottom line, only moved money from the public sector to the private sector. I agree with spending cuts that you mentioned IM, but there also must be additional moneys added. I have managed my departments based upon both cutting expenditures and creating revenues and I have to tell you that creating revenues gives more freedom to grow than cutting expenditures. There is only so much you can cut before it effects quality. Anyone that manages a company right realizes you need to do both. Lee Iacocca turned Chrysler around because he realized that in addition to cutting expenses which was what Chrysler had done to compete with Japan you needed to produce quality. Hence the objective was to create revenue and cut expenditures second. That is what our country and all businesses need to always do.
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Old 03-12-2004, 09:18 AM   #12
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Trith, have you bothered to even read the Democrat's positions on such issues, or do you just listen to Hannity?

Kerry is calling for a middle class tax cut, and a repeal of the Bush tax cuts on those who make $200,000 or more a year. Kerry is calling for a stronger military citing that Bush has done too little to actually strengthen our military. Kerry is also calling for real homeland security where we spend money on law enforcement and domestic intelligence.

Finally, Kerry is not advocating opening US borders to anyone, tard. It would do you well to learn how to read so you don't look like a fool everytime you post.
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Old 03-12-2004, 10:16 AM   #13
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Trith, have you bothered to even read the Democrat's positions on such issues
No, All I have done is listen to campaign speeches by Kerry..and all I hear is higher taxes..repeal Patriot act, open borders..gut military. He's your candidate..these are his views..therefore they are the views of your party..as fucked up as they are.
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Old 03-12-2004, 10:18 AM   #14
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Hearing excerpts of Kerry speeches on Fox news and Sean Hannity's radio program does not count as "listening to campaign speeches by Kerry".
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Old 03-12-2004, 11:32 AM   #15
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Thank you Bumb for the most excellent response. I do agree with a lot of what you say, and I appreciate the dialog, something that is above and beyond Lurikeen's ability.

You are correct that you need to add revenues as you run a business for it to succeed. But you also need to cut needless expenses. I could give thousands of examples from when I ran my own company for 16 years, but suffice it to say you are correct.

Yes, Bush has made some economic mistakes. But guess what, Clinton did to. I think the last really good President on economics was Reagan, and Bush senior screwed it up. That is why he lost the re-election. Anyone with any intelligence can look back and see how the economy was faltering LONG before W Bush took office.

If any of you have studies economics, you will remember the saying "guns vs. butter". Also, if you study Nash's theories on economics, you can see some of the mistakes that Bush has done. You can also see the good things he has done as well. Kerry scares me with his economic ideas.

Hey Luri, I post ideas so they can be discussed, just like Bumb. But hey, I don't have to answer to you, you have already shown that you don't know anything except how to flame.
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Old 03-12-2004, 11:44 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Twinkle Toes
But hey, I don't have to answer to you, you have already shown that you don't know anything except how to flame.
Yeah, uh, huh. I am just a son-of-a-bitch.

Hey, that reminds me of the chorus in the song by Nazareth, "Hair of the Dog".

Now you're messin' with a son of a bitch
Talking jive and poison ivy You ain't gonna cling to me


Oh, nearly fell out of character....

*clears throat*

Fuck off tard!
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Old 03-12-2004, 11:14 PM   #17
Zolmaz Zo'Boto
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Lurifuck,
Oh, nearly fell out of character....

*clears throat*

Fuck off tard!
You didn't fall out of character. I'm sure your fellow socialists are sensitive
to your needs as a pathetic human.


Inmountains,,
You cannot appease these green party socialists. They hate you as much
as they hate each other. And that say's alot.

Inmountains,,
Stop appeasing them. It only makes them more angry. They cannot handle
happiness in life. They thrive on personal torment by reminding themselves
every morning that earth is a living hell. Thank god for mirrors...



GOD BLESS AMERICA
Zolmaz Zo'Boto (Anger management is a course made by the same people that populate it)
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Old 03-13-2004, 07:03 AM   #18
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What the Dem's are really saying is "enforce affirmative action and create more jobs for minorities". What Bush is saying is "let's create more jobs for all".

That's the only real difference in the two.
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Old 03-13-2004, 05:02 PM   #19
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No, All I have done is listen to campaign speeches by Kerry..and all I hear is higher taxes
Trith there is a reason that your name is T-R-I-T-H and not T-R-U-T-H. That is because you always lie.
Kerry has NEVER said he would "raise taxes". Repealing tax cuts is not raising tax cuts. It is undoing that which is not permanent. Your logic and the convoluted Republican spin is wrong. If we were to pull out of NAFTA would that mean we are becoming isolationists? No it wouldn't. It would mean that Nafta wasn't working.
The truth Trith is that you don't stick with something if it is proven to not work.

IM, I don't agree that Reagan's economic policies were great, but I will admit that they did work. Most presidents had economic policies that worked. Some better, some worse. All president's have made errors on the economy as it is not an exact science. This point eludes Bush. His unilateral choices do not fit this economy of today and it is bearing out. So far, Bush has not done anything that helps the economy. The tax cut is counteracted by the soaring deficits. There is no economic progress there.
However, almost every president has a positive economic record. The two Bushes quite frankly have had poor economic records. This is because they honestly lack the real-life adversity and experience to run a macro-economy. When they have people on staff that do know how to do it they are shown the door. That is why Paul O'Neil was made useless because Dick Cheney had desires to run the economy. (Cheney made the decision to forego the tax cuts not O'Neal).

Last edited by bumbleroot; 03-14-2004 at 08:00 AM.
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