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Old 03-11-2004, 07:41 AM   #51
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As an aside, you make a good point over "support" Max. Really, can the Bush administration ever hope to get support for a war now that the intelligence on Iraq turned out to be nothing more than a steaming pile of shit?

I don't think a world leader in their right mind would follow Bush into another war unless it was perfectly clear that the country being invaded is an aggressor. Bush pretty much destroyed the doctrine of preemption with his first time use of it.
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:53 AM   #52
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Lurikeen acts like calling us n30-c0ns is an insult. I'm sure it's the opposite of liberal so I'm right proud to be called a n30-c0ns .
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:55 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
As an aside, you make a good point over "support" Max. Really, can the Bush administration ever hope to get support for a war now that the intelligence on Iraq turned out to be nothing more than a steaming pile of shit?
I bet we'd be surprised at the backing he would get.
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Old 03-11-2004, 10:00 AM   #54
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Ummm... Caelie, I wrote, "I don't think a world leader in their right mind would follow Bush into another war..." I didn't write that Bush couldn't get any support at all. So, yes, I agree, I think we would be surprised to see just what world leaders are out of their minds.
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Old 03-11-2004, 10:19 AM   #55
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Bush wont hurt anyone that might actually be able to fight back.
Didn't Iraq have like the 3rd or 4th largest military in the world? Too lazy to look it up, but if Iraq couldn't fight back, who could? By your reasoning, Bush could only attack....us?

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Old 03-11-2004, 10:59 AM   #56
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Vulpes, having the "4th largest Army" in the world means absolutlely nothing as a ranking. Iraq was hardly a military power...

In 1991, the army was infantry heavy but it now has more armoured and mechanised formations. The number of regular army divisions has fallen from about seven armoured/mechanised and 20 infantry divisions to two or three armoured divisions, three mechanised divisions and 15 to 17 infantry divisions. These divisions are, at least nominally, structured along the following lines.

Armoured divisions have two armoured and a mechanised brigade; mechanised divisions have two mechanised and one armoured brigade; while infantry divisions have three infantry brigades and a tank battalion. Armoured brigades have three armoured and a mechanised battalion while mechanised brigades have three mechanised and a tank battalion. Divisions usually have four artillery battalions in support. These regular units are generally equipped with the BTR series of vehicles and older Soviet tanks such as the T-55 and T-62. An unknown number of the T-55s were upgraded before 1991 with the T-72 (125 mm) gun while others have applique armour.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/iraq/army/
Iraq had a miniscule ground force, and from what I can remember, only had an airforce of around 450 fighters.

US and British forces found, after the invasion, that the Jane's estimates above were even to large.

After 10 long years of economic sanctions, and military containment, Saddam would have been lucky to be able to have defended his country from an Iranian occupation force.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:12 AM   #57
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His use of the word n30 c0n could be construed as an insult if he ever learns to spell it without using dudespeak.

Word for the day doofus is neoconservative. I know thats a lot of letters and hardly any numbers used, but for some crazy reason us adults like to use real words and not jibberish.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:15 AM   #58
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Funny thing is, Chuk, that when you use any sort of words they all amount to gibberish.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:18 AM   #59
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/cries
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:27 AM   #60
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I cried after reading my response, too. It could have been better. I pledge to all of you that I will seek to improve my one line flames.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:47 AM   #61
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His use of the word n30 c0n could be construed as an insult if he ever learns to spell it without using dudespeak.
I'd be a lot more insulted by that label if he didn't slap it on anybody that says so much as, "Gee, that's a nice tie George had on last night."
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:03 PM   #62
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:48 PM   #63
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Aww cute, nice junior, tomorrow we start you on dick and jane.
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:56 PM   #64
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What's with the "we start...", Sparky. You can barely read or write, let alone tackle Spot's Bedtime Book which I am sure is advanced reading at your educational level.
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:04 PM   #65
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His use of the word n30 c0n could be construed as an insult if he ever learns to spell it without using dudespeak
What else would you expect from a child?
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:05 PM   #66
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Yes please lets continue to degenerate this topic.
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:29 PM   #67
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Wildane, you can keep following me from thread to thread trying to start a flame fest with me, but it ain't gonna happen. I pretty much view you on the same level with Zolmaz. In other words, you're only worth very limited responses.
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:41 PM   #68
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Libya, Iran, and N. Korea
Would these be countries that can be considered as 'able to fight back' ?
If Iraq, though 'ranked' as 4th means nothing, how can we possibly determine who is a viable foe?

Also, how long do we give economic sanctions to work? I would think that 10 years was plenty of time, whereas 30 days is too little. It's simply common sense. Try it the 'easy' way, if that doesn't work, kick some ass, but give it a reasonable amount of time to succeed. 10-12 years was just too fucking long to be harassed by anyone ignoring UN resolutions.

Another thing, you bring up the intelligence thing and have in the past called Bush a liar because he believed his intelligence. I don't know where you work/do but I KNOW I don't check every single 'fact' that thousands of people are being paid millions of dollars to check. I go with what those more knowledgeable suggest, using all available data.

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Old 03-11-2004, 01:49 PM   #69
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Lurikeen, don't flatter yourself.

1) I'm just callin' 'em as I see 'em.

2) Seeing as how you have multiple posts in every thread, how do you reckon I can post in a thread where you are not?

Dumbass
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:54 PM   #70
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Vulpes, you are assuming that the economic sanctions on Iraq didn't work, but they did. In fact, we all know they did now. So, I would say that 10 years was certainly enough time, since the sanctions worked.

As far as the intelligence goes... it is as George Tennet has said over and over again. The CIA reported what they knew and it was the Bush administration that created the policy. Now, I don't know where you work, but I do know that where I work, when in a network security position, you damn well better be checking everything. That is your job. If you allow the network to go down over a security flaw, then there is hell to pay.

The president of the US is responsible for ensuring that there is as close to 100% certainty of facts prior to launching a preemptive war. He is, after all, the commander in chief. Letting Bush off the hook is just enabling further failures and more 9/11s.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:02 PM   #71
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Hey Lurikeen, of course Bush is soft on Terror, you're still alive and free!

Hey Wildane, if you want to start a flame war with Lurikeen, start bringing up dick's, he likes that subject, and sheep as well.

Now, for the topic at hand. Bush invades Iraq for several reasons, Saddam was already known for invading other countries, mass genocide, using WMD and more. Whether he had them at the time of the US attack, he had already shown the propensity to use them when he did have them. He was also the largest destabilizing threat in the region. The Middle East has been a powder keg since Cain and Abel, but at least Bush was able to reduce some of the friction.

Fighting terror is a whole new ballgame, and new 'rules' are written every day. Of course hindsight is 20/20 but that doesn't stop the 9/11's from happening. Our present administration may made decisions you do not agree with, but at least they are doing something. This is a learn as you go project, so it is unreasonable to expect every decision to be correct and every bit of intelligence to be 100 percent true.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:14 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Mountainbong
Hey Wildane, if you want to start a flame war with Lurikeen, start bringing up dick's, he likes that subject, and sheep as well.
A stalker by another name is still a stalker.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:17 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Seeing as how you have multiple posts in every thread...
I do? http://www.erollisimarr.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=19558

Hmm... you wouldn't be prone to exaggeration would you?
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Old 03-11-2004, 04:39 PM   #74
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Vulpes, you are assuming that the economic sanctions on Iraq didn't work, but they did. In fact, we all know they did now. So, I would say that 10 years was certainly enough time, since the sanctions worked.
What were the sanctions supposed to do? Oh yeah, make him comply with UN resolutions, which of course, he did....ohhh wait a minute, let's do a little research, shall we?




http://www.casi.org.uk/info/scriraq.html
Hmmm seems cut and dried. In 1999 Iraq was STILL thumbing its nose in the UN's face, which is reaffirmed by redundant resolution after redundant resolution. It's just like your parents telling you to "be home by 11 or your grounded" If, after 7 or 8 times you stay out till 3am and you don't get grounded, do you still listen to your parents threats?

Your network admin analogy is a bit off, as its MUCH easier to know what goes on when you have free access to that information, rather than having that information in a hostile country in which any informants are in mortal danger. Apples and oranges.

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Old 03-11-2004, 05:40 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Vulpes
What were the sanctions supposed to do? Oh yeah, make him comply with UN resolutions, which of course, he did....ohhh wait a minute, let's do a little research, shall we?
Your thinking is very linear. Not only were the sanctions used to enforce the UN resolutions on compliance, they were also put into place to ensure that Saddam would not be able to rebuild his military to pre-1991 strength, or be able to obtain materials to develop WMD.

You do the research, but it sure the hell looks like it worked. A year later from occupation and we still have no WMD.

Vulpes, my network example was dead on, but you apparently lack the required experience to understand network security and intrusion issues.
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