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Old 03-09-2004, 06:05 PM   #126
Bleemus
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Default Jim "kannibaal" Baker

Ok. Describe to me exactly how it is that a "man of god" (one whos is in touch with Jesus Christ for the laymen out there*i got the jesus nuts for dummies book out here myself so*) can be turned in and framed by other men and women of god (see above note). But honestly the argument ends where you began it at. You first describe how it is you break the law by doing what he did. It is stated many times in the bible (and no im not going to go point it out to you scripture and verse, if you dont know, time to reconsider your religion bud) to obey the laws of man as well. Now this is usually challenged by the "new age" or "new testament christians"
(which by the way is a really redundant thing to call yourself, were no christians till the new testament anyways...there were no old testament christians....anyways) will say that Jesus challenged the laws of man. And they usually throw up the idea of him running the money changers out of the temple as a good example. Ok So before this goes further....
That wasn't first of all Roman Law. The pharasies (not sure on spelling right now) wouldnt allow money with images of idols as a donation for the temple of God, which in turn is also gods law concerning no images before me etc etc. Im not going to hit the whole debate here, if you honestly want to trade bullets over this then you can IM me. What he was indeed doing (for all of you young upstart christians who dont read your bible) is running out the money changers cus they were all corrupted (alot like IGE and Mysupersales in the bazaar right now....hmmmm.....) So....back to Jim.

Jim had more than enough money to afford a nice tax lawyer. Im really sure he shoulda known what he was doing was illegal. And honestly if the sad fuck hadnt been locked up for that they shoulda found somthing else to bring him down for. It was beyond the point of annoying. I cannot give credit to someone who just takes money from old people under the premiss that you need to donate this money to me or god is going to kill me. Man someone shoulda saved god the trouble and did him thierselves.

Now, so far I have seen a whole lot of nice people on these boards try to tell you your going nuts. Me? I dont mind you can go crazy. Oh and heres a important fact Ill leave with ya,

"not everything you read is the truth"
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:12 PM   #127
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First of all it was Oral Roberts who told people to give him money or god was gonna take him home early(kill him). Secondly people who say they know who god is are still humans, we all make mistakes.

Your post has to be one of the funniest I have seen in a long long time.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:29 PM   #128
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Default oops!

oh yeah ok so i was out chasing rabbits on the Oral Roberts vs. Jim Baker thing. So I was wrong on that issue. Still doesnt erase the fact that he just like countless other agency's of TV evangelist have taken peoples money and given em pray clothes. You know how much of gods money do they need? And if it is gods money? Why dont they just ask him and leave us alone? But yeah sorry Jim Baker dont want to make you out to be a money scamming hiding-behind-the-church to be greedy asshole....wait a minute....
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:35 PM   #129
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You know, *anybody* can say they're a man of God, but it doesn't mean much if you don't walk the walk. Extorting money is obviously not the will of the Lord.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:38 PM   #130
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I Dont want people to get the wrong Idea here. If im wrong Ill admit Im wrong. I just you know want to be sure everyone knows that. But I think that just saying one absolute is right and the rest are wrong is a bit to far fetched. I mean come on. Besides I firmly believe since we have entered space that alot of the whole man/god theory has been broken and proven to be myth.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:41 PM   #131
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Besides I firmly believe since we have entered space that alot of the whole man/god theory has been broken and proven to be myth.
How so? You didn't honestly believe Heaven or Hell was in outer space, did you?
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:50 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Wildane
How so? You didn't honestly believe Heaven or Hell was in outer space, did you?
Personally, I don't believe either exist, but the Book of Genesis does state that the Earth is divided by the upper waters from the firmament, which is then called Heaven. So either Heaven is above in the sky somewhere, or it's beyond some airborne ocean.
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Old 03-09-2004, 07:51 PM   #133
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Default Towers...not the ones in EQ

I was referring to the story of the tower of babel. Those of you who dont know, all of man kind once spoke only one language. And they all had a novel damn idea. Lets build a tower to heaven (which some artist would suggest thousands of years later that perhaps a stairway was all you needed)h so they all got together and decided lets build this thing. According to the story they got pretty close. Close enough for god to go whoah...ok time to break this up. Free thought?? oh hell no....and were gunna screw up communication too (i threw in the free thought one) so he destroyed the tower of bable and made everyone speak funky. Now....how big did this tower have to be to get so close to heaven?? And why didn't we tare holes through it when we lifted off into space? Also...it is said "theres nothing new under the sun" oh yeah? Cool...that means we have had a space program before? Either way. You know i read someplace recently that the "burning bush had been found" Hey you know i got this real nice property Im trying to sell. Its got a really great view of the ocean. Give me a ring. You might like it. Plus Montana is a nice state to live in to boot so!
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Old 03-10-2004, 08:23 AM   #134
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Nothing new under the sun is speaking about human nature, sin, seasons, the monotony of life ect ect. Nice try Bleemus.

What if all men chose to work together for a common goal because there were no racial or language differences? What if all the time and money we spent on war was spent on technology? Would be cool to know how far we could advance.

So what would be the closest thing to resolving all of men's differences and having us unite? Probably a one world religion... so stop resisting and become a christian to help fulfill this goal. Unite together under one God so that we can put aside all our issues and develope our technologies to the fullest. VIVA LA HUMANITY!

If you cant tell by now I am totally joking.

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Old 03-10-2004, 11:28 AM   #135
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and you sorta skipped the tower of babel thing....nice singling out one part of my post there......
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:33 AM   #136
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Bleemus: Nice job with the Tower analogy, I never really thought of it in that respect.

To the person who mentioned stars being firmly in place in the firmament(sp) that served as the ceiling of the world(edit: ulujain): Don't forget the times that god 'shook the world and it's four pillars, for they are his own.' It would make me very sad to learn that the sun didn't orbit around our flat earth resting on pillars that god holds up. That would mean the bible is wrong, and if it's wrong... then it isn't infallable

And then it all 'goes to hell.'
Just like my spelling!
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Old 03-10-2004, 12:56 PM   #137
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I actually did write a reply to the tower of babel stuff but I didnt find it that imortant, so I left it out. I will write it again later or something.

I will at sometime go and find the scriptures that speak about the earth being round and the seperation of the continents.
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:01 PM   #138
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Default Jimmy "that aint my ho" Swaggert vs. Kannibal

WHOAH!! You mean to tell me you got to go look up somthing?? And you dont think the tower of Babel thing was interesting to you know look up?? Man how long have you been in your religion anyways? Did you read the contract before you signed it? Heh, you know when I go to buy a new car I try to find out as much about it as possible and several other brands of cars to see if I can get the best for my money. It disturbs me that so many people view thier soul as somthing they can so easily throw away and yet spend a hella lot of time on a car they cant take with them. I went back and reread alot of your post's on this thread and it occured to me. You didnt read the contract before you signed it. Its ok I understand.

A buddy of mine got involved with whats called a "cell church". Those of you who dont know I'll fill you in. Basically its one very large church that have individual groups in it. These group leaders are the personalized shepard of the members of this cell and all several days a week they will get together in one place all the cells and have a huge blow out or a huge meeting or whatever. And on Sunday of course. So, with that said, theres nothing wrong with it really. The problem here was they were very charismatic. Very. Well, he, not being the brightest crayon in the box, went along with the whole filled with the holy ghost thing (literrally) and before you knew it was involved neck deep in this. Well it came his night to have the cell at his house. He informed his shepard he would have to let his girlfriend know. He's like why's that she coming? He's like well I should hope so she lives there.

His Shepard immediatly told him he was so wrong with god and that god was going to punish him or what not for living in sin. Hes like wtf are you talking about? He's like you cant have some woman living in your house specially one thats not saved. He's like no one told me this when we started this whole gig. His pastor is like well you know its part of living a new life. Friend is like but I like my girlfriend, I mean she might drink a bit to much at times or get to high but I love her to death. The Shepard guy calls her a harlot and hes living with a minion of satan (told you they were charismatic) and this got the guy punched dead in the mouth.

Incidently, they are married now with like 3 kids. heh. He's the one who shared with me the whole "read the contract before you buy thing, oh and always punch straight in the mouth not up into the mouth (he needed stitches from the teeth)

Alot I think can be learned from this. I dont expect you to though, Im a satan filled wrong about his religion asshole. It's ok. I forgive you.
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:18 PM   #139
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Yeah I am exactly like every christian and televangelist you know. Bleemus, seriously tho, take your head out of your ass for a bit and read the junk you post here. You have no idea who I am but yet you love to assume tons of BS about me from a few posts you've read. Just because I dont reply fast enough to your weak swings at my faith doesnt mean I didnt read the small print before signing up. Bravo for being one of the most closeminded fools on this forum.

BTW your "for those who dont know, I will fill you in" captain obvious gig is weak. The things you post here acting like they are big secrets happen to be pretty well known things.

Im not going to post unless you want to show some respect and stop being a dick.
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:33 PM   #140
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Default Captain Obvious

Actually I was maken sure you understood the big words. Not fun when people start swinging back at you about your weak religion huh? As far as being a dick, hey I have never tried to be a dick I have tried to be me. And Dick is such a harsh word to be used by a professed christian. Im sure they taught you that in sunday school. "Now class, lets not pay attention to bleemus, jesus thinks he's being a dick right now."
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:25 AM   #141
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ok you are being a penis.

you are useless to speak to. when you deside to stop being so close minded let me know.
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Old 03-11-2004, 10:39 AM   #142
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To those why may have written a response to anything i wrote - this is teh first time I have visited the forums and actually read in this section, so I apologize for not answering sooner. I will look at what was written (if I can find it after so long) and if a response is needed, I will do so.


This post though is to respond to Bleemus and the Tower. Actually God did not throw down the tower and give different languages because he did not want free thought. God did this in order to PREVENT the total corruption of humanity.

The original kingdom of Babylon is described in Genesis 10-11. It was humanity's first empire, ruled by the godless tyrant Nimrod, who was “a mighty hunter in defiance of the Lord” (10:8-9). Nimrod built the first great city, Babel (“gateway to the gods”), which was a society rooted in human pride and dedicated to exalting itself over everything, including God (11:4). God noted that that this kind of all-encompassing empire would totally corrupt humanity, so he prevented this by confusing the people's languages so they have to disperse.
More can be found at www.xenos.org for those interested.
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:20 PM   #143
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Lurik:

Sorry about the delay - here is your response.

(Regarding loving sacrificially - and my belief that its highly unlikely anyone without faith can do it consistently on a daily basis.):
How do you know that?
If loving sacrifically were easy Lurikeen, then everyone would have the ability to do so. I look at the world around me, the people around me that I interact with, I recall those I have known for my life, I read extensively, and I also believe in the bible - and I can say with a more than fair amount of certainty that it is highly unlikely that the normal everyday person without belief in God, a person who relies soley upon themselves, will be able to love sacrifically and unconditionally on a daily basis. In fact, I find in my life and those I have known that only a few have ever been able to do so - one is my Grandmother, the others have been Christians. All of them. So the answer is - yes I can say with certainty. Can you, with certainty, say I am wrong, totally and completely?

Even secular authors and therapists have termed part of this as a "love tank." We, as humans, find it difficult to love others if our love tanks are not full. With believers, and the occasional rare truly loving person, you find that no matter what, the love tank is always full of love, because the source is God, the continual flow of Christ's living water so to speak.

Also, don't you understand how you are exaggerating the worth of your own religion over anyone else's?
I do not feel I am exaggerating the worth of Christ, no absolutely not. What I am speaking of is what is at the heart of real Christianity - the truth of Christ. I would not be a Christian if I did not believe in this wholly. Do I realize that I am preaching something that is polarizing? Yes. Do I understand that those who really do not want to believe in God find this uncomfortable at best? Yes. Do I realize many will reject this? Yes. I am stating what I believe, Lurikeen, and what I believe to be truth, just as you do.


Those practicing other religions, such as Islam, don't believe they have something other than their self to support them?
Yes, they have God, but they do not accept Christ as the Son of God, which does in my opinion, make a huge difference between the two. From Jesus flows living water. Not from Mohammed, who was not God. Big difference.

First off, what you are writing is not truth. We CAN rely upon ourselves and we should. Perfection is not a requisite of self-reliance.
Lurikeen, think through what you wrote. I rely on a perfect being for a never-ending flow of love which enables me to love in a way that I could not do on my own.

You are saying that "perfection" is not required for self-reliance, and you are correct. However, that is NOT what I said. I instead implied that we cannot rely on ourselves for a never-ending flow of love. Humans do not have the reserves or nature for this. Only God does.

Btw, I know you think its not truth, but I think it is.

I also think your view of not being able to rely upon others around you is sad. Not everyone is going to hurt us. Not everyone is going to fail us. Yes, everyone will make mistakes, but that is one thing that makes us great. We learn and adapt. Being capable of making mistakes allows us to show empathy towards one another and complete acceptance of others.
I also think the fact that I cannot rely on others as a source of never ending unconditional love is sad. For all of us. I did NOT say I cannot rely on others at all for anything Lurikeen. What I did say was that we cannot rely on others to be our Gods and fill our love tanks up to full. Why? Because they are busy trying to get the same thing done for themselves. We all do it. We all go around trying to find love and fulfillment, and we look in the wrong places - namely to other humans who WILL fail us.

As far as everyone failing us, you are wrong, Lurikeen. (Note I did not say hurt, I said fail) Every single person you meet in life will fail you given time because we are not perfect beings. I do not state this with a sense of despondancy or fear. Acceptance of this does not dimish us as humans nor cheapen the huge capacity we have to love others. It is simply the acceptance of a flaw in our makeup (that came with the fall in my belief). It also does not mean that we cannot rely on others for many things. It simply means that you cannot rely utterly on other imperfect beings to fulfill you and meet your needs. You will be disappointed every single time.

Obviously, imo, God is perfect, and will never fail us, therefore, He is the only one on whom we can and should utterly rely and depend.

How do you know that? Oh, yes, you will say "the bible tells me so".
Here you were referring to good and excellent not being enough in God's eyes.

Simply put, Lurikeen, God's standard is perfection. Any other standard would be subjective. Where would the line be if it were up to us? Most people, even Christians, think the line where the "bad" people start is right below or behind where they themselves are. So where is that line? Can you draw that up? Can Ghandi? Can Mother Teresa? Can Joe Scmoe? Which standard is best and why?

These are unanswerable questions! Maybe we could write enough laws in place... oh wait nm the Pharisees already did that! They had over 600 laws that had to be fulfilled every minute of every day in order to be considered righteous! Why do you think Jesus taught that the man who humbly asked for mercy as he was a sinner was more righteous in God's eyes than the one who thanked God that he wasn't as bad as everyone else around them!

Bah! My point Lurikeen is that God's standard is perfection, but He has provided a means by which we may find absolution because He knows we will fail His standard.

And yes, the Good Book told me so, Lurikeen. I am sure that you have read many books that convinced you otherwise. That is your choice. I personally would take the Bible over any book by any human. /shrug I KNOW you will disagree with me, Lurikeen. Don't get your panties in a bunch! Its ok.


Yes, your position is rather circular and ultimately self-defeating, literally.

While looking for help "outside" ourselves can give us a sort of "jump start" on real problems and issues, the effect isn't at all lasting unless we can come to rely upon our selves.
Obviously, I disagree for the many reasons already stated.

I suspect that some Christians (and most religions where they rely upon something "external" for self-worth) are constantly at odds with themselves, living an almost schizophrenic life because they have lost contact with what they truly are inside and struggle to maintain an ideal inner-life as dictated from above and "outside"; it is the proverbial trying to be something we aren't.
I would say that this is only true when the person is either 1) choosing to sin deliberatly, 2) Not truly a Christian, or 3) Does not understand how God's grace applies to their life.

I have seen this. I even lived this way for awhile /sigh. It wasn't pretty nor fulfilling. And it was worse than before I was a believer because I knew what I was choosing to do was truly wrong, and I knew the right thing to do. iw as just being rebellious and saying "nope thanks I'll handle this myself." In none of the cases where I did this myself, was the outcome good for me or those around me. Man's way lies death....
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:20 PM   #144
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Take the idea of so-called "unconditional love", for example. I firmly believe that there is no such thing. Even the God of the bible sets conditions for his love. One such condition is that you can't be evil. Everyone knows that God hates evil.

Even parents set conditions on their love for children. I am sure Gary Ridgeway had parents that loved him. I don't know if they are alive right now, but if they are I am certain their love for Gary is likely to have waned in light of the multiple rapes and murders he comitted.

Of course, it is easy for the Christian to respond, quite circularly, that God's love is different than ours. God's love is perfect. He/she/it doesn't really hate the person, but the evil (sin) itself. Which of course is nonsensical once it is understood that it isn't the evil-sin itself that will be burned in hell, but the person, according to many Christians.
Unconditional love DOES exist. God is the one who provides it. I am sad you've not experienced this.

As for it being easy. I would say its never easy to discuss the attributes of God with someone who doesn't believe the God even exists. The concepts are hard enough to take hold of when the person is a believer.

I will say that God is perfectly loving and perfectly just. Therefore, He can love us completely without conditon, while still requiring us to answer for the sins we have committed. We ourselves do this with our own children. We can love our children, but still require that they answer to and possibly are punished for wrongs they commit.

In the example you give, I would think that the mother still loved her son, though that would be completely separate from her disgust and horror in his behaviour and the fact that he must b punsihed for the criomes he committed.

Lurikeen, you are a father. If your child killed someone, you would still love your child. You would probably be horrified by their behaviour but I am sure you would still love them. This is the closest I can get to a real explanation of the love God feels for us.

I don't expect you to understand the concept of God hating the sin, but not the sinner, but I DID explain it. There is NOTHING that can separate us from the love of God. God even loved Hitler, as sick a human as he was. But God WILL require justice for Hitler's sins.

Luky out.
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:51 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Luky
Lurikeen, you are a father. If your child killed someone, you would still love your child. You would probably be horrified by their behaviour but I am sure you would still love them. This is the closest I can get to a real explanation of the love God feels for us.
My point was not that a parent stopped loving, but that the love for our children likely wanes when they do very terrible things, like Gary Ridgeway.

In fact, I think you are likely ignoring the entire idea of rewards and punishments. Children can do things that affect the extent and degree to which we as parents can possibly love them. Lee Malvo is a good example. If he has a mother, I am sure she still loves him on some level, but the extent and degree of her love for him is surely not the same as when he was a little innocent toddler.

Love is not an all or nothing condition, but conditional it is. There is absolutely no such thing as love without reservations.

Talk about God having unconditional love is on par with talk about Santa Claus having a list of who's naughty and nice.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:57 PM   #146
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Anyone remember when this thread had potential??
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:25 PM   #147
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Everclear, you usually are cogent and reasonable enough on this board that I respect your posts. You make a good point, but bring up something that you might not have thought of. Why can't you apply logic to religion? There's no way to justify this "logical immunity" people apply to their faith without simply ignoring reason entirely. Organized religion and faith itself, even the concept of a deity, are all human creations, and logic can be applied. The fact that it comes out with an answer you don't like leads to you give it an immunity

Well I say that they are on two different levels... because I always thought that science told us how things are. religion tells us how things should be... in a moral way. I mean, I don't take the creation story literally, and even Jesus used parables to demonstrate points. I think of it as science is a description of God's creation. Kind of an attept to explain the empirical. Theology explains the metaphysical, those things that science doesn't..or can't measure. So to me, the two never really come into conflict.

For me the problem occurs when people try to "interpret" or place measurements on things they were not meant to measure. For example... the determinism example. If science proved that the motion of all particles was predetermined, that's fine. That doesn't really have much impact on religion. Religious people could say.. "God put them in motion... or that proves that God could be alll knowing, as he knows the entire path existence will take." But neither one proves or disproves the other. They kind of co-exist taking up areas that are not filled by the other.

P.S. Organizations and religion are not the same thing. Please do not point at Tammy Fay Baker/Messner and call THAT religion. That is not how it works. Also, please do not use an experience that you had with a particular organization to label religions with, that is not accurate, either.
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:41 PM   #148
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You can't get an 'ought' from an 'is'. Moral arguement is normative, it doesn't reveal any truth about God in nature. That tends to agree with Everclear.

One thing moral belief can do is delineate a set of values such that people can agree what is 'Right' and what is 'Wrong' thereby making laws for the protection of common good and liberty. In respect of Equality, society mutually agrees to yield a certain amount of Liberty such that each member does not have the freedom to deny any other their Life or Possessions unilaterally and so on. Thus the State is erected to govern over civil society and hold order.

This in no way proves the universe is the creation of a supreme being, good and bad are notions defined through conventional meaning and therefore are products of Language. Language is simply the medium of communicated human thought.
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Old 03-11-2004, 10:12 PM   #149
Bleemus
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Religion is a set a values you adopt to produce a great quality of life. (Jehova's witness on my doorstep today)

Waterhose is what you turn on arrogant asshole Jehova's Witness's who cant read the no tresspassing sign in my yard. Current temperature, 56F, they left soaked.
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Old 03-12-2004, 03:14 PM   #150
AresProphet
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I'm liking this Bleemus character more and more with each of his posts...

Anyway, I'll address Misty first: you don't evne need to look so far as language to find where our morals spring from. Look around the animal kingdom and you'll see myriad examples of cooperation, sacrifice; taboos against murder, theft, cannibalism (mad cow disease notoriously, and 'kuru' among human cannibals), and adultery. The reasons such morals exist is because following such "altruism" is really just selfishness in disguise. An anarchy cannot survive because everyone will end up dead. Thus, agreements are formed, because a small sacrifice is far better than total annihilation.

On to Everclear:

Well I say that they are on two different levels... because I always thought that science told us how things are. religion tells us how things should be... in a moral way. I mean, I don't take the creation story literally, and even Jesus used parables to demonstrate points. I think of it as science is a description of God's creation. Kind of an attept to explain the empirical. Theology explains the metaphysical, those things that science doesn't..or can't measure. So to me, the two never really come into conflict.
I may sound arrogant, or pretentious at the least, but you think incorrectly. Religion explains nothing science cannot. By science I mean, specifically, the scientific method. Emprirical reasoning. The perceived requisite for 'evidence' is only required as validation, not as a basis. Thus, the old argument, "Belief is truth without proof, science is proof without truth" is utterly false.

As much as I enjoy paraphrasing a speech Douglas Adams once gave, I really hope I don't have to do it again. It gets tedious. Suffice to say, he demonstrated that there is a logical foundation for the ideas of a supreme power in the universe. The only thing that gets people upset about it, is how he explains it as an artificial human creation. Man created god, not the other way around. The whole premise of faith is an attribution of everyday events to some false construct, a security blanket of sorts for primal man. We laugh at tales of tribes who make sacrifices to appease rain gods or whatnot, but in reality the superstitions are not that much different from "organized" religion! And it's a testament to the power of the meme, the religious virus, that people still cling to outdated beliefs even if they are disproved! It can be no other way, of course. If there were evidence, as Richard Dawkins puts it, faith would be unnecessary. Why blindly believe when you could see evidence for yourself?

Nobody takes the creation story literally, of course, because they realize that's simply too easy to disprove. At what point does the Bible cease to be literal, and become figurative instead? Vice versa? Suddenly the whole document is open to question. It doesn't matter to me, since I see it for what it is most likely to be: a work of historical fiction. If, by some rare chance, the Bible contains facts and prophecies, I shall have to adapt, but since it would necessarily have to be proven on factual grounds, I'd have no qualms with it. It simply wouldn't be faith anymore, and that I could accept. Such a claim is not made with a snide assumption that the Bible will never be proven to be true. I doubt it, but there is no shame in forsaking an inferior standpoint for a new one.

For me the problem occurs when people try to "interpret" or place measurements on things they were not meant to measure. For example... the determinism example. If science proved that the motion of all particles was predetermined, that's fine. That doesn't really have much impact on religion. Religious people could say.. "God put them in motion... or that proves that God could be alll knowing, as he knows the entire path existence will take." But neither one proves or disproves the other. They kind of co-exist taking up areas that are not filled by the other.
Wow, you're pushing my buttons left and right; two in one paragraph. Very well. I shall attempt a concise explanation for my viewpoints, but if you really are intrigued, search for some of my other posts on the subject. I don't want to end up with another trifecta of 10,000 character posts, as I did one time in an exchange with Lurikeen...

First, what are we "not meant to measure"? You might be taking science too literally. We can't measure the universe; does that mean we can't postulate about it? We can't quantify human behavior, so does that exempt it from scrutiny? No scientist dismisses astronomy or psychology outright, though many feel they are inferior to "hard" sciences of chemistry and physics, but I think it's a result of the skewed viewpoint you share: if it's not quantifiable, it's not science.

Frankly I don't want to get into that debate, and it's beyond the scope of my knowledge for the most part, but any reasonable human being, scientist or not, will agree that you certainly can make logical claims about anything. Deductive reasoning can be applied to any phenomenon we observe, and even if we find no physical evidence to support our claims, so long as there is no superior theory, the most reasonable will be considered 'true'. Even many 'hardcore' theologians will agree on this point, so it's not just a secularist claim; it's common sense.

Second, I want to address the "God put them in motion" bit. I'd like to explain how this looks from my viewpoint as objectively as I can, so I'll resort to something everyone here knows: algebra.

I'll give you the equation A + B = C. Simple enough. But what about the equation X(A + B) = X(C)? You get the same solution. You can add higher orders of complexity if you like, but the ultimate 'solution' is still A + B = C. All you do is add unnecessary multipliers (and my choice of words here is important).

Now, you may have vaguely heard of the principle of Ockhams Razor. A good website for explanation may be found here , but the essential idea is that simple theories are more likely to be correct; read the literal translation.

So how does this all fit? You may have guessed. Given that we see the world now for what it is, we've sort of got to come up with the equation for the answer. Postulating the existence of an "intelligent designer" is simply superfluous; you don't need it. Thus, in the absence of any concrete proof, we would have to reject the theory of intelligent design, in favor of a naturalist view.

Philosophers have done a better job of explaining this than I, but essentially some people think that X is important in our equation; I see it as unnecessary, a worthless abstraction at best, a misleading distraction at worst.

Why does this push my buttons? Because the wonder of the evolution of complexity is being stolen by theists. This is the "intellectual flag-planting" I've spoken of before. There isn't a single good idea man has had, that religion hasn't coveted for itself. The virus imports new memes into it's code and injects the tainted material back into its victims. By itself the information is enlightening, but when religion decides to "claim" an idea it's sickening, and defeats the purpose of logic, reason, and science.

It amazes me that the very arguments that at one time are considered rivals of theism, are eventually assimilated into religion. It's as though the fact that the very essence of the argument conflicts with faith is ignored, and people are content with the cliche of, "God works in mysterious ways". I call bullshit!

I need to end this before I crack my keyboard typing.
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