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Old 03-06-2004, 10:33 PM   #101
Ulujain
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The Moon is not falling into the Earth. For this to happen it'd need to be a) orbiting retrograde and b) be beneath the Earth's Roche limit. If it was oribiting retrograde, it'd lose energy. See studies of Neptune's moon Triton for example.

In fact, the opposite is happening; the Moon is moving further away from the Earth.
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Old 03-07-2004, 03:56 AM   #102
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I didn't say it was falling INTO Earth.

The moon has more than one motion: consider we are rotating around Galactic Central Point (thank ye Monty p.), on an outer spiral arm of the Milky Way, we are rotating around the Sun, and rotating around our axis. There can be such a thing as more than one axis of spin also. Given the surface of a spherical object any 180 degree point opposite any given point of the surface constitutes a potential spin axis through its center: the greater the surface area of the sphere the greater its possible potential spin axes especially if assuming the axial points are periodic for purposes of crossover (I'm not great here, think analogous to atomic matter energy levels maybe somebody know's how Pauli's Exclusion Principle works). Anyway, the further from Luky the more comfortable I feel about the topic. Sorry Luky hehe.

A mass in orbit around another mass is accelerated in its path around the radius of that mass. If ya like it is overshooting it's entire moment of gravitation towards the mass at the rate it is moving through space beyond it. That captive trajectory path is its orbital trajectory (a gradient, natch). At some point in its own trajectory through space, beyond Earth, the moon may no longer be equally attracted towards us by Earth's gravitational mass. Such that it loses the centripetal force of an captive orbital motion around Earth, and follows its own trajectory path again. It can heighten it's Earth radius but eventually that will weaken the gravitic tidal attraction which accelerates it into an orbital path around us (thus falling back into an orbit anyway since it loses the force accelerating it).

Under gravity you throw a rock it flies in an arc usually has an elevation and hits the ground again. Acceleration of its mass changes with direction over time, under gravity. Eventually it falls to rest through force of weight (mass x acceleration = weight). Weight is a force (Newtons) thing acting through mass and gravitic acceleration. Bigger the rock, harder it falls. Finally, the rock's mass rests in stationary equilibrium (vertical displacement totals nil) against earth's surface, shoot a bullet pretty much same result just flatter trajectory, this is ballistic mechanics without regard for deformation.

Throw the rock with enough initial force it can turn under the acceleration of Earth's gravitational attraction at the same rate it is travelling beyond Earth's curved surface and into space. Giving it the centripetal motion that will continue to accelerate it around Earth's radius in an orbital path around us.

The moon might move 2 feet here and there but I bet a chewie that that is an oscillation between free upper limit low frequency, free lower limit high frequency spin bandwidth something-or-other.
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Old 03-07-2004, 04:36 AM   #103
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Kanibaal is officially an idiot. Extrapolating results beyond the point of observation is sheer fucktardedness. Not only that, but his terms and "facts" are highly suspect in and of themselves. I'd like to hear where he got them from; I wouldn't be surprised if it was some moronic young-earth-creationism society.
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Old 03-07-2004, 05:49 AM   #104
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Misty, have a read of this: http://128.252.223.112/cgi-bin/circR...9436.As.r.html

Answers all of this better than my shit understanding of astronomy ever could.
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Old 03-07-2004, 10:32 AM   #105
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tnx
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Originally Posted by Drysdale
"Fair enough. I don't agree with anyone all the time."
Originally Posted by Davek
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Old 03-08-2004, 05:35 AM   #106
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Ares, yep Im a big idiot because I dont believe the same things you do! All your knowledge is pure truth and Im just a deceived fool.

To tell you the truth I couldnt care any less about science, creationism, and/or evolution. My beliefs come from personal experiences that I wouldnt want to post online for anyone to read. I would rather not have someone I dont know try to rationalize away or explain to me what they think. Ever see the movie Contact? well you get the point.

Lurikeen, do you really think Im going to read that link and take it seriously? It would be like me posting links for you to read that support what I think. Aint gonna happen. Plus the guy acts like little half-page and full-page responses to those 15 questions are adequate enough to disprove creation. Nice try but no thanks.
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Old 03-08-2004, 06:05 AM   #107
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Default Oh Lord wont you buy me a mercedes benz!!

Ok ...let me see if I followed this. So far (as long as I found myself interested enough to read all these posts) its give god a chance. Let your soul figure it out. God Loves You! Well your damn right my God Loves Me. He loves me every damn time i respawn to my bind point. He loves me everytime I pay my EQ bill every month and every damn day how does he show me this love? He lets me die. But wait, oh damn sorry tangent. You mean the OTHER GOD!!

Well, heres how I look at it. I grew up in what is commonly termed the Bible belt. In this area pretty much you learn very quickly what they meant in the constitution about "freedom of religion" Its basicly your free to believe in anything we tell you is proper to. If you dont believe the way we do, well were just gunna have to run your little (insert religious slang here) behind out of town. I have even been told on many occasions, "if you dont believe in god then stop using his money, the money says In God We Trust on it." You know I always respond with if its his money then why are you guys always begging ME FOR IT? Why not go ask him for the money since its his and leave the little bit of his money he has loaned to me to use in my (insert religious slang here) practices alone! That normally doesnt go over well. I think the really AWSOME part of this whole Passion thing is, it reminds me of the Last Temptation of Christ. For you people who have never been open minded enough to see it, skip this paragraph so I dont ruin your mind.

Basically, they were really upset with the Last Temptation of Christ cus it took certain liberties on the story of Christ (even though at the begining of the movie it clearly tells you this is a WORK OF FICTION). I find this really Ironic, cus the Passion isnt doing anything like that the Church proclaims. Its just taking certain liberties on the story of Christ....... .... ......... .....yeah, ok.

Now when you consider some of the sources that are so proud of this movie, you might have a different look on it. We got our Catholic "its ok to molest little children" church saying oh man its so powerful *pass the choir boy* you got the Protestant "its ok your a gay minister" Church *drinks a few more beers before continuing* and those IDIOTS WHO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR LIKE 30 SECONDS AFTER YOU JUST GOT FINISHED HAVING SEX. You know em, you love them. I mean, when you consider people like the 700 "you know maybe if someone had a nuclear device they should you know maybe blow up the state department" Club or better yet the 700 "God let 9-11 happen cus we are just so corrupted by sin" Club saying oh its so powerful and wonderful film, you start to challenge reason? No of course not. Its not politically correct to. But lets take it a step further, a 6TH GRADE Teacher, suspended last week, professed christian, with a HOT COPY OF THE PASSION, showing it to his 6th grade class.

Honestly, its to me not about the story of jesus or what I believe or what you believe. But, if you want to group yourself with the type of lunatics that are endorsing this movie then so be it. I expect though to see the following movies in the box office before the year is out:

The paASSion of Ron Jeremy. (a Seemorebutts Film)
The Dead Sea Scrolls or Matrix 4: Armageddon (Jack Nicholsan plays god)
The Passion of Malcom X: Witness how he died for the militant cause(the last 12 hours of his life)
The Passion of Buddah The Atkins Diet Movie, let this fat guy lead you to freedom!!

and last but certainly not least,

The Passion of Allah: "The last 12 hours of the Terrorist life on 9-11" (this one wont be released in the states im sure. That TV station thats always playing the Osama Files will run it though for the rest of the world to see)

Now I know some are laughing, some are crying, others are ready to flame me, but I say equal time for every religion in the world. Oh and honestly, you know the Porn spoof will be done, its only right.
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Old 03-08-2004, 06:58 AM   #108
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Bleemus, have you even gone to see the movie?
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Old 03-08-2004, 08:33 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Lukaria
Also, when I spoke of loving sacrifically or truly loving, I did not say it was impossible, just very very difficult. It is hard for me as a Christian to love sacrifically on a daily basis, I know it to be harder for those around me that are non-believers.
How do you know that? Also, don't you understand how you are exaggerating the worth of your own religion over anyone else's?

Originally Posted by Lukaria
Why? I have something other than myself to support me. Other than the humans around me (even those I love) who are not perfect and will hurt me and will fail me.
Those practicing other religions, such as Islam, don't believe they have something other than their self to support them?

In truth, as humans, we cannot even rely on ourselves! If you think I am wrong, then tell me every decision that you ever made in your life was the right one! I am positive that isn't so!
First off, what you are writing is not truth. We CAN rely upon ourselves and we should. Perfection is not a requisite of self-reliance.

I also think your view of not being able to rely upon others around you is sad. Not everyone is going to hurt us. Not everyone is going to fail us. Yes, everyone will make mistakes, but that is one thing that makes us great. We learn and adapt. Being capable of making mistakes allows us to show empathy towards one another and complete acceptance of others.

I am sure there are lots of people who live "good" lives and do "good" deeds and are "excellent" people. But "good" or even "excellent" in our eyes is not enough in God's eyes,
How do you know that? Oh, yes, you will say "the bible tells me so".

See what I am getting at?
Yes, your position is rather circular and ultimately self-defeating, literally.

While looking for help "outside" ourselves can give us a sort of "jump start" on real problems and issues, the effect isn't at all lasting unless we can come to rely upon our selves. I suspect that some Christians (and most religions where they rely upon something "external" for self-worth) are constantly at odds with themselves, living an almost schizophrenic life because they have lost contact with what they truly are inside and struggle to maintain an ideal inner-life as dictated from above and "outside"; it is the proverbial trying to be something we aren't.

Take the idea of so-called "unconditional love", for example. I firmly believe that there is no such thing. Even the God of the bible sets conditions for his love. One such condition is that you can't be evil. Everyone knows that God hates evil.

Even parents set conditions on their love for children. I am sure Gary Ridgeway had parents that loved him. I don't know if they are alive right now, but if they are I am certain their love for Gary is likely to have waned in light of the multiple rapes and murders he comitted.

Of course, it is easy for the Christian to respond, quite circularly, that God's love is different than ours. God's love is perfect. He/she/it doesn't really hate the person, but the evil (sin) itself. Which of course is nonsensical once it is understood that it isn't the evil-sin itself that will be burned in hell, but the person, according to many Christians.
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Old 03-08-2004, 09:05 AM   #110
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Bleemus, have you even gone to see the movie?
I can answer that from reading his post...No..he hasn't. And if he has..congradulations to him on being the first human ever who learned how to write (poorly), but cannot read.
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Old 03-08-2004, 09:21 AM   #111
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I'm a reformed Catholic, and gotta say, this has been one great read ! And while I do respect others needs to have beliefs different than mine, I gotta ask......Did any of ya ever see The Life of Brian ? I know, it's blasphemous, it's irreverent, it farts in the face of organized religion. But at it's basic core, it proves mankinds ability to take a very simple occurance, and snowball it into a belief system. And that belief system turned into a very profitable business. And as history shows, it has been run like a business.

The Bible clearly states Jesus was born when the shepards tended they're flocks. Everyone agrees, this had to have been in the spring. Yet we celebrate his birthday on Dec 25th. Whys that ? Because the Christians needed a religous holiday to offset the Pagan holidays, so they literally took the Pagan holiday of the winter solstice. Sounds like a corporate move to me.

The gospels were written by Jesus' closest deciples, and have become THE written truth about his life and death. Yet they weren't written the day after he died. No, they were written years,....decades after the fact, by men in they're mid fifties ++. I'm 41, and I can't remember squat, but yet these men all recounted verbatim the acts and deeds of jesus. It's no wonder all the gospels contradict each other in some way. And Gibsons movie was based on what he percieved as the truth taken from them.

Now, if we are to believe the gospels, why is the gospel of Mary Magdalene not recognized by the Catholic church ? Watch "The Last Temptation of Christ", it says it all. Thats the story the church doesn't want you to know, that perhaps Mary Magdalene was right, she was married to jesus, and fled to what is now france to avoid persecution, and have his child. If the church acknowledged this, it would mean putting a mere woman in the same light as the other "male" disciples,.....and they couldn't have that, then,....or now.

Forget about the translations of the Bible, and the fact that we might be interpreting the whole text in the wrong way......theres a King James VERSION for crying out loud !!! That in itself should bring question to the validity of the document.

During the Crusades dozens of "authentic" peices of the cross were found, and yet none of them date back that far, or even match each other. Theres at least a half dozen goblets from the last supper, some which are known forgeries. And yet the Shroud of Turin is the real deal. It can't be dated past 1355 AD, and with the knowledge of numerous religous forgeries before it, the church still denies the findings. BTW, where is that Arc of the Covenant anyhow ? Whip that bad boy out,....convert millions ! But no they won't, because doing so would blow the whole deal. They're intangible is faith, and physical proof messes up the concept. The whole story of doubting Thomas was surely created to support that concept.

Do I beleive in God ? Yep. But I don't believe Jesus was the son of god, nor do the Jews. And quite frankly, I don't believe all the Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists are wrong either. I don't beleive the Native Americans were wrong in they're beliefs. I like to take a little bit of each belief system, and mold my own personally, because they all have great attributes.

But christianity aint on my list. I can't go with anything thats run like a business, and based on fear and persecution. ( oh yeah, that whole Inquisition thing, remember ? )

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How many times will you watch the full moon rise ...... Perhaps twenty and yet it all seems limitless."

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Old 03-08-2004, 09:23 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Also, don't you understand how you are exaggerating the worth of your own religion over anyone else's?
Well, DUH. Perhaps, if you believed in anything at all, you would understand. Why would he NOT value his religion over others? You can't honestly say that you would be totally objective when you were, say, comparing your daughter to someone else's.
Originally Posted by Lurikeen
the effect isn't at all lasting unless we can come to rely upon our selves
God is there for guidance, not to make your decisions for you. He helps those that help themselves. You do not ask God to take away your stress, you ask him to help you deal with it. Anyone looking for an easy ticket for a free ride is looking in the wrong place.
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Old 03-08-2004, 09:55 AM   #113
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Originally posted by Mudpuppie
Do I beleive in God ? Yep. But I don't believe Jesus was the son of god, nor do the Jews. And quite frankly, I don't believe all the Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists are wrong either. I don't beleive the Native Americans were wrong in they're beliefs. I like to take a little bit of each belief system, and mold my own personally, because they all have great attributes.
It amazes me that more people don't see it that way. I have a REALLY REALLY hard time accepting the fact that anyone who's not Christian is doomed...that would be too easy.

I would imagine that if there were/is a creator/deity/God he,she or it would want us to be open to all types of belief systems-not blindly follow a man because he wears a white robe and carries a cross! If Christianity is your thing, great! If Islam,Hinduism or Judaism is your thing, more power to ya. What is wrong with the person who says none of these religions are more right OR wrong than the other?


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Old 03-08-2004, 09:55 AM   #114
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Default to those who doubt

I dont see how me seeing the movie (I have) means anything. The fact remains that the biggest people promoting this movie and its content, to include members posting on this board, are fanatical and insulting when they address other people's religions. I suspect this is how the Apostle Paul got all those people to turn to god, by beating them into submission and arguing back and forth to the tune of, "my god can kick your gods ass". I think that alot of the prejudice in the Chrisitian community comes from the fact that very early on in thier indoctrine stage, they are repeatedly told how the rest of us are burning in hell but thier not. How the rest of us are going to swim in a lake of lava, oh and all those other religions are wrong. Its a long process, some of which have been going through this religious brainwashing since childhood, but eventually you get people such as we have had demonstrated here over and over again who want to wield the cross as a weapon instead of what it was meant for in the first place. Christ did not die so that you could use this sacrifice to run screaming into every household how wrong you are, how evil you are or how Im going to heaven and your not. I think that that sort of tactic would work very well if you were a member of the Gestapo, but unfortunatly for the Internet and the general community at large, will only fall on deaf ears or will cause a great deal of resentment.

I have also found in history those who are the most outspoken about christ and the most condeming of others are usually the ones who are screwing up big time and just havnt been caught yet. Jimmy Swaggert. Jim Baker.

But these are the same type of people who now think the "whore that is hollywood" is going to save the masses. As I have heard quoted many times since this movie came out, "the good lord said that he would pour out his spirit in the end times to give mankind one more chance at believing in him." Well thats great. And he used Mel to do it. And from the same institution that makes more "satanic" movies on a yearly basis than they have Christian. Yeah that sounds very likly. But they have to say that now, because well they have made 100's of million dollars off this movie, and we all know the church is waiting on thier cut of it. So of course their is going to be wide spread propaganda about this movie and praise to people like Mel and his Guild of Actors who put it out.

Its political. Plain and simple. And you know, judge not, lest you be judged. I would go pray forgivness for assuming as well. Now if you will excuse me I got to get back to my beer, anal sex with my wife, and memorizing more mantras. But please, feel free to slander away. I only find it humorous.

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Old 03-08-2004, 09:57 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Wildane
Well, DUH. Perhaps, if you believed in anything at all, you would understand. Why would he NOT value his religion over others?
You have confused "exagerrating worth" with "value". I am certain that Lukaria values her own religion over all others, but that doesn't mean she must fail to recognize the significant value others place in their own religions.

BTW, parents value their own children over other children, but at the same time we usually don't knock other parents as not valuing their children simply because we love our own children.
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Old 03-08-2004, 10:54 AM   #116
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I'm a Christian. Jesus loves me =D I like science, the two don't conflict. Science and religion are apples and oranges. I am interested in what empiricists have to say, I usually don't disagree with most of what they say, just as I don't disagree with a lot that the "nay sayers" post on this board. The only part I see a conflict with... is when "nay sayers" start to try to falsly apply thier logic to religion, or religion tries to falsly apply itself to science.
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Old 03-08-2004, 06:02 PM   #117
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Bleemus, can you even tell me without doing a internet search the things Jim Baker did wrong?
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Old 03-08-2004, 07:04 PM   #118
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Default Jim Baker

Who dont remember condo's for Christ? Or i need to make a (enter amount here) of money or god is going to kill me. Can you even spell Fraud? heh. Thats off the top of my head. Isnt that enough?
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Old 03-08-2004, 07:18 PM   #119
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Old 03-08-2004, 07:20 PM   #120
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Default oh god

Man Im so with ya on that one. And shes still around. And after all these years still wears more makeup than 30 dollar crack whores.
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:12 AM   #121
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I don't have time to write out a reply to do justice to all this, but I'll address a few points.

Ares, yep Im a big idiot because I dont believe the same things you do! All your knowledge is pure truth and Im just a deceived fool.
No, you're an idiot because you're posting made-up facts and meaningless extrapolations that nobody with a double-digit IQ should take seriously. I love how you assume linear relationships as opposed to exponential relationships, too. You know how rare those are in nature?

I'm a Christian. Jesus loves me =D I like science, the two don't conflict. Science and religion are apples and oranges. I am interested in what empiricists have to say, I usually don't disagree with most of what they say, just as I don't disagree with a lot that the "nay sayers" post on this board. The only part I see a conflict with... is when "nay sayers" start to try to falsly apply thier logic to religion, or religion tries to falsly apply itself to science.
Everclear, you usually are cogent and reasonable enough on this board that I respect your posts. You make a good point, but bring up something that you might not have thought of. Why can't you apply logic to religion? There's no way to justify this "logical immunity" people apply to their faith without simply ignoring reason entirely. Organized religion and faith itself, even the concept of a deity, are all human creations, and logic can be applied. The fact that it comes out with an answer you don't like leads to you give it an immunity.

Douglas Adams said it best, when he compared organized religion to a sort of turtle, that's built up all these impenetrable layers to keep enemies away. It just sits there and ignores any attacks, claiming that you can't apply logic to it.

Also, you claim that faith and science don't conflict. Well, they do. Think about this. The whole of physics and chemistry are based on the assumptions of a deterministic universe; that, if two atoms collide, you can predict where they go and what they do, given sufficient computational power. If you throw in the idea of a miracle, where some higher power can defy the laws of determinism, then suddenly all of science becomes bunk.

Have to leave now, will expand on this later.
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Old 03-09-2004, 09:33 AM   #122
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Ares, I feel the same about the 'made-up facts' evolutionist try to shove down eveyone's throats as you do to the simple things I posted. You are acting like Im here to totally prove something wrong or right. When the truth is I really dont care what others believe or think on this forum. I only post to get maybe a few people thinking for themselves instead of believing everything they have heard or read.

Now the Jim Baker issue... When people give money to a non-profit organization it is placed into certain funds previously chosen. If this money is then moved around it is against the law. Jim Baker moved some money around and got popped for it and no, the money wasnt moved to his own account. He only wanted to build a place for christian families to go and relax without the outside influences of everday life. He wanted people to come and get refreshed so their family could grow closer and they would be ready to minister again. Alot of the visitors to his resort were missionaries or supporters of missionaries. People within his denomination actually turned him in and somewhat framed him but whatever, I know you guys will have your harsh and ignorant opinions to post about him.
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Old 03-09-2004, 10:19 AM   #123
Dredblade
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Jim Baker moved some money around and got popped for it and no, the money wasnt moved to his own account. He only wanted to build a place for christian families to go and relax without the outside influences of everday life. He wanted people to come and get refreshed so their family could grow closer and they would be ready to minister again. Alot of the visitors to his resort were missionaries or supporters of missionaries. People within his denomination actually turned him in and somewhat framed him but whatever, I know you guys will have your harsh and ignorant opinions to post about him.
Wow Kaanibal, you've really outdone yourself with this one. I will not dignify your comment with a further response.

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Old 03-09-2004, 10:50 AM   #124
AresProphet
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Ares, I feel the same about the 'made-up facts' evolutionist try to shove down eveyone's throats as you do to the simple things I posted. You are acting like Im here to totally prove something wrong or right. When the truth is I really dont care what others believe or think on this forum. I only post to get maybe a few people thinking for themselves instead of believing everything they have heard or read.
Thinking for themselves? You are the one posting blatant lies from young-earth-creationist organizations claiming that it suddenly "proves" the Earth is 10,000 years old. Are you that fucking retarded? Your follow-up paragraph makes that a distinct possibility.

Kanibaal, you're being a moron, and claiming the "think for yourself" argument is useless. In fact, it's downright hypocritical of you! As I said, I'd love to see what hilariously distorted group you got your "facts" from. Some uber right-wing group that even Trith would call a bunch of loonies, I imagine.

You aren't thinking for yourself, you aren't even trying to get others to do so. And you're just. plain. wrong. Yes, there is such a thing as true and false, and the little "simple things" you posted, are most definitely the latter.
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Old 03-09-2004, 05:36 PM   #125
kanibaal
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WOOOHOOO gotta love being profiled by some wannabe psychologist. Get a grip Ares, you are going way too far with your idea of who I am.

I have read books and other material about the Jim Baker case but whatever. It really is useless to speak about anything around here because everyone would rather speak their opinion then hold their hands over their ears but that is expected.
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