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Old 03-01-2004, 01:24 PM   #51
Lurikeen
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
And just who are you responsible to for your choices?
To myself.
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
And just who are you responsible to for your choices?
We can be accountable first and foremost only to ourselves. It's not clear cut by any stretch, but I believe we should be accountable to others in greater and smaller degrees based on our relationships and the impact our choices have on others.
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Old 03-01-2004, 01:33 PM   #53
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Default cop out

well, as it sounds, it does not matter what you do in life...good , bad, right, wrong, they all don't matter 'cause everything we do is not of our doing anyway...if we do something wrong, we were tempted by evil spirits, or devils, or whatnot..if we do good, we are the vessel of the allmighty on earth and just give him the credit anyway..

so why bother going through the motions?..i mean, getting into heaven is like winning a close basketball game, the entire game is all decided in the last few seconds....get that deathbed jesus saving action and bada bing!...instant heaven.

on a personal note, i smoked cigs for 20 freaking years..started real young...tried to quit a few times and failed, was talking to a friend of mine about his drinking problem, he brought up my smoking in an argument..it dawned on me i was being a hypocrite telling him to quit when i could not..i opened a fresh pack of camels and tossed 19 of them, shared the last one with him....that was about 3 years ago, have not touched a cig since....

were the cigs a temtation from evil or unclean spirits?..no, they were some tobacco in a paper wraper with a filter that are highly addictive and bad for your health...do i thank god for giving me the strength to overcome and all that noise?..no..after 20 years i had figured it was a good time to quit, and my friend gave me the logical slap in the face i needed....

Free will rocks, its free, no guilt or strings...just right and wrong for pretty much clear reasons... if you just give yourself enough self-respect to trust yourself to use what you have learned to shape your own destiny.


Tet.

oh yeah, if your perspective of time is infinite...all possibilities become true, so heaven and hell would be about equal....
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Old 03-01-2004, 02:48 PM   #54
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I also think its quite dumb when people pretend they are feeling the hand of god and falling down in the theater with his power, take control of yourself and stop giving god credit for the things you have achieved.
Thats what we call hypocrites.
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Old 03-01-2004, 04:24 PM   #55
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You are the epitomy of close-mindedness. You refuse to believe in what can't be explained logically. Guess that means you don't believe in women either .
I know that's a joke, but you sort of answer your own point with it. I'm not refusing to believe in god because his existence can't be explained logically; it can. And that's why I don't "believe in" him. He's an artificial construct of the human mind, a misifiring of our perceptions that we typically call a "superstition", but in this case hide under the guise of "religion". There is a logical answer to everything. Just because it's not the answer you want to hear doesn't make it wrong.

How do you know for sure that it's not part of a grand scheme? Oh wait, that's right. Closed mine here, carry on.
How do you know for sure it is? Because a book of highly questionable integrity, combined with a few circumstances you refuse to look deeper in to, tell you to, or elad you to believe everything is connected? Coincidences happen, and it's only when they are considered improbable by our very narrow perceptual scale that we think it anything but coincidence. On the scale on the universe, they're no more coincidental than anything else.

Pray tell, what evidence you have that God does not exist? That I would love to see. Keep in mind that any "evidence" you bring to the table that supports the theory of evolution does not mean that there is no God. So go ahead, prove him wrong. I dare ya!
Yeah, and you know what? The number one thing I despise about religion is it's intellectual flag-planting. An idea comes up that by definition does not require any intervention by a deity. In fact, it's existence is rather indiciative that this whole "god" concept is just smoke and mirrors... and then Christianity comes along and says "God invented evolution!". Bullshit! You can't stand a theory that keeps your god out of it, so you claim it for your own. The same goes for morality, laws, afterlife... all concepts that have existed for so long, outside any religious influence (except afterlife, by definition), and your religion comes along and pulls an Al Gore. "God invented morals!".

So I won't even dignify your "challenge" with a response, because you immediately come out and hide behind your flag. Guess what? God did not create evolution, and furthermore, it doesn't even need a divine presence. In fact, the very mention that there is a god somehow behind the mechanics defeats the purpose of it. You accept that a computer can do apparently intelligent acts without any intereference, but you would scoff if someone told you there were actually little elves inside doing all the actual work, and not electrons zipping around purposelessly. You do the exact same thing with life, but the little elf up in the sky doesn't seem foolish to you?

Unseen by me.. unseen by logic. If it cannot be seen, it cannot be rationalized away.
Yeah, it can. I could say, "There are many things we do not see and yet rationalize", and you'd say that "seen" means "observed". So after you're done raping the true context and meaning of that phrase (because "seen" was mean literally, as in "with the eyes"), I'll just roll my eyes and walk away.

Can't you see how you are doing the same thing when criticizing him for his refusal to "see alternatives"? In fact, how do you know he hasn't already considered them? I think you are being a tad bit presumptuous.
It is my consideration of the "alternatives" that has led me to realize they all are, in fact, bogus.

close-minded - Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas.
Well sign me up. I can't tolerate the people who can't tolerate other ideas.

The ultimate double standard is those who wish to belittle and ridicule another man's faith openly, but whine and cry when Christians call their lack of morality in to question.
Lack of morality? Here's that fucking religious flag-planting again! You fucktards did not invent morals. Get over yourselves; you make Al Gore look credible by comparison.

Look at it like this.. you have faith everyday. You have faith that you will get to work safely.. you do not rely on statistics to convience you its 'safe' to drive to work. You have faith that you will have a job tomorrow and that your needs will be met. If you didnt you would go insane with worry.
Where do you think faith comes from? It comes from statistical inference. Not conscious, no. I have faith that I will make it to work safely because I haven't done otherwise yet. You often see people who will refuse to fly on planes after surviving a plane crash. This is because their faith in airplane travel has been questioned. It's an unconscious calculation that is designed to allow us to operate in what is an uncertain, but predicatable, world. It operates under a "past performance indicates future success" rule; if it ain't broke, don't fix it. When it [faith] does break, you become quite a bit more suspicious of the things you used to take for granted.

The second greatest gift God gave man, besides salvation through Christ, was free will.
Pull your fucking head out of your ass! Free will and religion have about as much in common as apples and submarines. God didn't create free will, because god is in no position to create anything. Sort of hard when you're an artificial construct.

And just who are you responsible to for your choices?
Yourself, and humanity. Much more simple than trying to blame it on or take credit from some deity you've never met face to face.
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Old 03-02-2004, 02:09 AM   #56
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Good work. Well said.
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Old 03-02-2004, 07:25 AM   #57
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As for this discussion - no time to do it all justice.

I will comment a little on free will.

The point is that if there is such a thing as free will, then the reason why I recieve praise or condemnation is because of my choices; not my faith. If there is free will, faith is subordinate to it.
You do not quite understand, Lurikeen. Faith is separate from free will. All men were given free will when God created them. Therefore, you indeed have free will whether you believe in God or not.

Faith though is different. I have faith in God. I have faith that Jesus died for my sins and by doing so, that I am forgiven and the gulf between God and I is now closed (because I accepted His gift). Faith is active, but you do not receive praise or condemnation for faith (except from God).

Am I choosing to have faith? Yes I am. However, having faith in God, does not mean I am exempt from the temptations of this world. I can choose to give in to the temptations or not, and that IS my choice.

I will say that imo without God, you will have an extremely difficult time trying to truly love in this world. You will be too fettered by chains of selfishness and fear to truly love others in a sacrificial way.

I've been reading a few books lately and one of the thoughts running around my head is that too often, we as humans settle for excellence. We think that if we do something right most of the time, thats good enough. After all no one is perfect right? If we love our kids most of the time and only yell at them when its really needed it - thats excellent parenting. If a wife only fantasizes about other men on occasion, but mostly about her husband, thats excellent right? If a husband only looks at other women's bodies when they are right in front of him (like on tv or in an ad) that is ok right, thats excellent............

My question is - why settle for excellence? With God's help, we can achieve victory, though that may take a long time. Am I saying we can be perfect? No. But we can be more than excellent. That is a choice of mine, but its one that I doubt can be made without faith in a higher being that grants me power to overcome my own selfishness....

Ok maybe I will write more later, but I think I made a point.


Btw, not all people who fall to their knees are faking it. Perhaps its just that moment that those people felt the spirit moving them to accept Christ. Maybe they realized they are broken people and need God's help and it happened to be when they saw on screen what Jesus suffered for them.

Its my sin (and yours and theirs) that whipped Jesus and hammered Him to the cross and I couldn't stop crying and telling Christ how incredibly sorry I was, how much I was not worth it, but how grateful I was that He thought I was worth it. I was humbled.

(I don't discount that there are those that fake healings and feeling the spirit of God btw, I know there are some).


Anyhoo, I do need to say that I agree, if you are not willing to listen to others speak their beliefs and consider them, then you are being closeminded. I ALREADY considered other beliefs, and no belief, and I chose faith. I still listen to others, but it doesn't compare to what I believe.


Btw, someone asked why Christianity is NOT a hoax. If you REALLY want the answer to that question I can give you some really good answers or good books to read which answer hard questions. lee Strobels - The Case for Faith or the Case for Christ are really good. And Dennis McCallum's The Case for Christianity is a very short but insightful read. The Death of Truth is also good, also by McCallum. if ya want to know more detail PM me.
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Old 03-02-2004, 08:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Lukaria
You do not quite understand, Lurikeen. Faith is separate from free will.
I think I wrote that.... I wrote that it was subordinate to freewill.

Originally Posted by Lukaria
Faith is active, but you do not receive praise or condemnation for faith (except from God).
I am pretty sure I wrote that we recieve praise or condemnation for our choices. Did you miss that?

Originally Posted by Lukaria
However, having faith in God, does not mean I am exempt from the temptations of this world. I can choose to give in to the temptations or not, and that IS my choice.
That is why I wrote that faith is like an Appendix. We don't need it at all in order to make good or bad choices.

Originally Posted by Lukaria
I will say that imo without God, you will have an extremely difficult time trying to truly love in this world. You will be too fettered by chains of selfishness and fear to truly love others in a sacrificial way.
"Truly love"? Ah, yes, that little modifier is the escape hatch by which you propose that unless one has faith in God, they can't really love. I hate to break the news to you, but people have been "truly" loving each other for centuries long before you think Jesus walked the planet. But, that is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Originally Posted by Lukaria
That is a choice of mine, but its one that I doubt can be made without faith in a higher being that grants me power to overcome my own selfishness....
Lukaria, leading a "victorious life" is not the trademark of the "true believers" and "faithful" in Christ. I know it is hard for you to imagine a wonderful and good life without Christianity, but not only is it possible, it is being lived everday by millions of people. In fact, believe it or not, there were people living happy and morally good lives prior to the dawn of Christianity. They didn't need to have "faith in Christ" in order to do things like "truly love".
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Old 03-02-2004, 08:48 AM   #59
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Lukaria, leading a "victorious life" is not the trademark of the "true believers" and "faithful" in Christ. I know it is hard for you to imagine a wonderful and good life without Christianity, but not only is it possible, it is being lived everday by millions of people. In fact, believe it or not, there were people living happy and morally good lives prior to the dawn of Christianity. They didn't need to have "faith in Christ" in order to do things like "truly love".
Happily in sin? Morally good to what standard? I challange your assumption of other's feelings. You dont know how they felt or what they thought.
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:00 AM   #60
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Rheaton, it might shock and awe you to know that for millions of years before Christ humans co-existed together and followed rules.

In fact, Plato (following Socrates) had a full blown moral philosophy in 400 B.C.. Hundreds of years before him, Hammurabi (King of Babylon 1790s B.C.) wrote a complete legal code covering everything from trade to marriage.

There are quite a few ancient civilizations, Rheaton, none of which were familiar with Judaism or Christianity, but had moral codes and systems of ethics.

How do I know how these people may have felt? They are humans, and so I am confident that they had emotional content much like mine.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:21 AM   #61
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So I won't even dignify your "challenge" with a response, because you immediately come out and hide behind your flag.
Bullshit. I said that the theory of evolution doesn't mean God doesn't exist, I never indicated that he was responsible for the production of said theory. You wont' dignify my challenge with a response because you can't. Just another name for the "all sizzle and no steak" list. As your buddy has been known to say on this board, put up or shut up.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:29 AM   #62
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Well said Lurikeen.

Isn't it interesting this notion of ancient civilizations before Christ and their so called "religious beliefs"? I suppose all the Native American tribes 10,000 years ago went to hell by default

Not to mention countless others......

/laugh

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Old 03-02-2004, 10:34 AM   #63
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Native American tribes 10,000 years ago went to hell by default
Not quite. The majority of Christian sects have often held a belief that when Christ died on the cross one of the first things he did before his ascension, and eventual rise from the grave was to venture into hell and absolve all the souls there of their sin and punishment because they had not had a chance to know his word on earth. If you've seen The Passion you can see this very scene when he dies upon the cross and then you see Satan alone and screaming in hell because it has in fact been made empty by the salvation.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:40 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Lurikeen
Rheaton, it might shock and awe you to know that for millions of years before Christ humans co-existed together and followed rules.
No, it would shock and awe me if you provided proof of such co-existance with moral laws dating back 'millions of years' ago.

In fact, Plato (following Socrates) had a full blown moral philosophy in 400 B.C.. Hundreds of years before him, Hammurabi (King of Babylon 1790s B.C.) wrote a complete legal code covering everything from trade to marriage.

There are quite a few ancient civilizations, Rheaton, none of which were familiar with Judaism or Christianity, but had moral codes and systems of ethics.
I wish I could find it, but havnt really looked.. yet now would be a good time to quote it (perhaps someone can help me with it).. : But somewhere in the Scripture it states that God's laws are inherent upon birth.. that they are etched in our hearts and spirits when we are born.

I wish I could find it cause I read it years and years ago and it stuck with me as an answer to how people governed themselves in 'good ways' before Christ and or the Ten Commandments.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:41 AM   #65
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Free will rocks, its free, no guilt or strings...just right and wrong for pretty much clear reasons... if you just give yourself enough self-respect to trust yourself to use what you have learned to shape your own destiny.
Best quote in here so far.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:42 AM   #66
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I just wonder if anyone would be talking about religion being a scam or otherwise had the movie not been made?
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:45 AM   #67
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Religion being a scam or not is a staple topic here Onis, for better or for worse, regardless of current offering at the local cineplex.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:59 AM   #68
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It just seemed to me that alot of the threads were about religion as a scam .. i realize that there is more but the point i guess i was trying to make was that i didnt notice any talk about religion at all untill the movie came out. Good or bad, the movie has affected alot of people ,believers and non believers alike
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:44 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
No, it would shock and awe me if you provided proof of such co-existance with moral laws dating back 'millions of years' ago.
Rheaton, you were beat very hard with the retard stick. I have already provided you with evidence of such civilizations prior to Christianity and which were unaware of Judaism. Take it or leave it. The ignorance is yours.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:48 AM   #70
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Nice try, but you havnt proved anything of the 'millions of years ago' that you stated so bite me.

Your just guessing and assuming that at some point someone introduced 'morals' to civilizations... and bygolly it wasnt God or anything like that. Yes, So'crates and Playdough had some great ideas, but where do we see laws structured around them?

A child knows injustice without being taught what justice is. A child knows cruelty and meaness when they see it without prior references. This is something that is inside us... not something that came from So'crates.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:05 PM   #71
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Yes, So'crates and Playdough had some great ideas, but where do we see laws structured around them?

Uhhhhhh, can you say democracy? I suggest you read up on your history Rheaton, especially that whole thing about the Greeks.

As far as a person having the innate ability to distinguish right and wrong, well that remains to be argued.

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Old 03-02-2004, 12:11 PM   #72
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Well your right.. "laws structured around them" wasnt really my thinking.. More of morality and its orgin then laws and so forth.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:37 PM   #73
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It could be argued both ways, but I see your point


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Old 03-02-2004, 01:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Rheaton
Nice try, but you havnt proved anything of the 'millions of years ago' that you stated so bite me.
Rheaton, logical reason escapes you. The fact that you are typing posts proves beyond doubt that our ancestors lived by rules millions of years ago.

Your entire point as to whether or not these rules are inherent is besides the point and actually not at all relevant to the point of discussion.

Of course, I know you want to credit God as the creator of the rules, but you have no proof of that. So bite yourself.
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Old 03-02-2004, 01:04 PM   #75
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Ares,

Email me pelase at lukariatrueheart@hotmail.com.

Rest of you - no cyber plz
Oh yeah, that's an invitation!

Seriously though, why? There's a nifty PM system on here. My email rots for a few weeks between checks, since I only use it to catch junk mail from message board registrations and crap like that. My personal email is quite separate.

Bullshit. I said that the theory of evolution doesn't mean God doesn't exist, I never indicated that he was responsible for the production of said theory. You wont' dignify my challenge with a response because you can't. Just another name for the "all sizzle and no steak" list. As your buddy has been known to say on this board, put up or shut up.
Your implication was there, and you can't pull "plausible deniability" on this one. The circular reasoning goes like this:

"Evolution can go on without God, but since I believe in God, he must have made it in the first place. Where else could it come from?"

I know you were trying to bait me. Deny it if you like, but I called you on it this time. And what's with this bolding of "theory"?

"You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means."

Again, you are creating a situation of plausible deniability, but I'm not fooled; you ARE implicating that just because something is a "theory" it is not "fact". This is false, and I suggest you look up some scientific definitions of the word. That is, after all, the context in which it is used, so looking it up in a general English dictionary would be taking it out of context.

But somewhere in the Scripture it states that God's laws are inherent upon birth.. that they are etched in our hearts and spirits when we are born.
Take your moral flag and plant it in your ass! Just because we aren't born as a "blank slate" does NOT mean there's some supernatural deity "etching" things in to our brains!

A child knows injustice without being taught what justice is. A child knows cruelty and meaness when they see it without prior references. This is something that is inside us... not something that came from So'crates.
And this couldn't be instinct programmed by millions of years (billions, counting the whole history of life) of natural selection. Naw, that'd be too easy. Best make up some ultra-complex entity for the sole purpose of explaining a little tiny thing.

Ironically, Rheaton, your argument is the exact same one C.S. Lewis used in Mere Christianity. Repeating it doesn't make it any more valid, though.
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